Egwene's Reign (speculation & possible spoilers)

[azrael.1289]

But that's why she pushed so hard for the removal of Elaida. Elaida had made a travesty of the situations involving the Tower and with Rand. She is aware of what needs to be done and how things need to be handled from here on out. However the way she needs to go about doing it, needs to placate the need of the Hall to see it as her being in complete charge of the DR and the LB, which she knows is clearly not possible. She has literally no wiggle room to accomplish these goals. She is aware of what Rand needs to do, she just wants him to start seeing the Aes Sedai in a more positive light. And that their advice and knowledge is to be valued and not discarded. Yes she is slightly annoying because of this but never arrogant, she reserves the arrogance for outward appearances.

I can quote several times when she thinks(not for outward appearance) she has to guide Rand. My question is what makes her think a silly not even 20 year old girl knows more about TG than the guy the pattern appointed to win it? If that is not arrogance, I don't know what is.

 

Wanted to point out that Rand is, what, a silly 22 year old boy that also thinks everyone should do what he thinks? They're both arrogant. But they both need to work together, and hopefully now that they've both matured a lot in the last book they'll see that.

Yeah, but when she thought that, she was still a silly village girl(not Amrylin yet) and it was established that Rand was the DR.

And from Rand's POV, all he is trying to do is save the world, so he has the right to expect people to help him achieve this no matter who they are. It has been shown several times that Egwene's top priority is the WT and its position post TG. So, you can't really compare them.

 

Also, Rand is not a silly 22 year old boy, he was born as the Dragon Reborn and the pattern has provided him with (LTT's) knowledge and experience needed to do what the DR needs to do.

 

[Eht Slat Meit]

Also, Rand is not a silly 22 year old boy, he was born as the Dragon Reborn and the pattern has provided him with (LTT's) knowledge and experience needed to do what the DR needs to do.

 

I'll point out here that Rand was -not- born the Dragon Reborn. His birth and Rebirth are specifically told as separate events in the KC. The first three books led up to that point. Beyond that, he's also foretold to cause all kinds of sorrow... but not that people should simply hop in line to follow him and be destroyed. People are not simply a tool to be used, because they are flawed and they break. He has to learn that, because arrogance is undoing.

[Aquarius]

Wanted to point out that Rand is, what, a silly 22 year old boy that also thinks everyone should do what he thinks? They're both arrogant. But they both need to work together, and hopefully now that they've both matured a lot in the last book they'll see that.

I perfectly agree with the "work together", which makes the "guide him" thing all the more disgusting. Rand wished to "use" the Tower, Egwenes plans to "guide" Rand. THey're both awfully wrong.

[garion]

Remember Rand was open to any and all HELP he could get to save the world.  But all he received was AS and nobles trying to manipulate him to what they wanted.  Rand is still a Two River's guy where he will be honest and want that back in return.

[SuperFade]

^Very true. I find it incredible that Egwene, who was with Moirane when she explained how to advise Rand, has somehow forgotten that the manipulation approach doesn't work. Her agreeing with Silviana's assertion that men cannot be trusted at the end of the book is even more astonishing. It's like all her newfound empathy with Rand just evaporated.

[yoniy0]

Her agreeing with Silviana's assertion that men cannot be trusted at the end of the book is even more astonishing. It's like all her newfound empathy with Rand just evaporated.

She did made a mental note to herself that they will eventually need to grow past that sentiment. She just said that for the time being it was true enough to let stand. And she's absolutely right. I mean, would you like her to go about trusting Taim? Rand himself is on the right track, maybe, but I'd like to see more than one epiphany before I'll trust him with my life... Actions speak louder than words.

[azrael.1289]

Her agreeing with Silviana's assertion that men cannot be trusted at the end of the book is even more astonishing. It's like all her newfound empathy with Rand just evaporated.

She did made a mental note to herself that they will eventually need to grow past that sentiment. She just said that for the time being it was true enough to let stand. And she's absolutely right. I mean, would you like her to go about trusting Taim? Rand himself is on the right track, maybe, but I'd like to see more than one epiphany before I'll trust him with my life... Actions speak louder than words.

The thing is no one has a choice but to trust their life with Rand. If he chooses to remain idle/turn over to dark side everyone dies. Everyone needs to acknowledge all the sacrifice Rand has made/will have to make to save their life.

 

I mean if the people I was trying so very hard to save, constantly try to bully me, torture me, manipulate me, and in general act as though they would be better off without me, then I would probably think to hell with them and their ignorance/arrogance and join the dark side.  8)

[yoniy0]

I mean if the people I was trying so very hard to save, constantly try to bully me, torture me, manipulate me, and in general act as though they would be better off without me, then I would probably think to hell with them and their ignorance/arrogance and join the dark side.  8)

You're absolutely right. However, there's a middle ground between bullying someone and obeying his every wishes. If you'll save my life, I would be inclined to help you, and be nice to you in general. I won't, however, subject myself to you whims. Nothing says Rand has to rule the world. Nothing says everybody should shut up whenever he tells them to. They have a say so on how their lives are being protected, don't you agree? Who appointed him emperor? Not the Pattern, for sure. If he was to say "Do what I tell you, or else I won't save you", who's the bully?

[azrael.1289]

I mean if the people I was trying so very hard to save, constantly try to bully me, torture me, manipulate me, and in general act as though they would be better off without me, then I would probably think to hell with them and their ignorance/arrogance and join the dark side.  8)

You're absolutely right. However, there's a middle ground between bullying someone and obeying his every wishes. If you'll save my life, I would be inclined to help you, and be nice to you in general. I won't, however, subject myself to you whims. Nothing says Rand has to rule the world. Nothing says everybody should shut up whenever he tells them to. They have a say so on how their lives are being protected, don't you agree? Who appointed him emperor? Not the Pattern, for sure. If he was to say "Do what I tell you, or else I won't save you", who's the bully?

That's the thing. hardly anyone we have encountered is even being cooperative let alone being nice to him. So, he justifiably gets resentful and angry and tries to bully them. I mean who wouldn't. Here he is tryying to think of how he has to die so he can save their lives and there they are being mean and distrustful of him.

 

The pattern may not have appointed him emperor but it did appoint him to lead the forces of light.

 

Yet one shall be born to face the Shadow...and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth at his rebirth. In sackcloth and ashes shall he clothe the people, and he shall break the world again by his coming, tearing apart all ties that bind. Like the unfettered dawn shall he blind us, and burn us, yet shall the Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle, and his blood shall give us the Light. Let tears flow, O ye people of the world. Weep for your salvation.

 

The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south

 

 

[Durinax]

I mean if the people I was trying so very hard to save, constantly try to bully me, torture me, manipulate me, and in general act as though they would be better off without me, then I would probably think to hell with them and their ignorance/arrogance and join the dark side.  8)

You're absolutely right. However, there's a middle ground between bullying someone and obeying his every wishes. If you'll save my life, I would be inclined to help you, and be nice to you in general. I won't, however, subject myself to you whims. Nothing says Rand has to rule the world. Nothing says everybody should shut up whenever he tells them to. They have a say so on how their lives are being protected, don't you agree? Who appointed him emperor? Not the Pattern, for sure. If he was to say "Do what I tell you, or else I won't save you", who's the bully?

actually he does need to be an emperor, if he let all the different nations be separate when the war starts they will be weaker and it will be harder to win the war. Plus part of his conquering has been to destroy the forsaken or to stop another force thats against him (shaido).

 

although people should not cater to his every whim, not many do. his generals all tell him what they think is best and he listens to them, or else he listens to those he rules over snd that helps him reach decisions

 

And Egwene should be able to trust men who can channel since the only one she has encountered has been Rand, although she obviously is very scared of him, obvious since book one. And if she cannot help or even listen to an old friends problems without thinking that she must guide him in what he is doing, she is doomed as a leader

[FarShainMael]

He doesn't want to be emperor. He's realised that if he establishes himself as ruler of all these warring nations to enforce peace, that peace will evaporate as soon as he dies, and they will be ten times worse off than before.

 

And he expects to die quite soon.

 

I don't think Egwene has quite realised that yet.

 

[yoniy0]

Nowhere in there does it say he would LEAD anything.

The only piece of prophecy I can think of that mentions anything like that is "and he shall wear a crown of swords", implying he'll rule Illian (for a time, and not that it's his right to do so). Oh, and "he shall bind the nine moons to serve him", though the emphasis here is on 'serve', not 'bind'.

The deal with the Stone of Tear isn't a good example. It's been said that it wouldn't fall before he took callandor, not that he should rule Tear.

Do you have other examples?

 

BTW I didn't say I don't understand how he got to where he is. Just that it's not justifiable.

 

Durinax, I think FarShainMael did a good enough job, that I won't add anything beyond that Egwene's loving Rand shouldn't mean she has to trust him. I do think she blames him for too much, but how can you say she's doomed as a leader? She's perhaps the best leader we've seen in the series so far. A bit cocky at times, but that I can forgive.

[Valsuvious]

I am enjoying the back and forth between between Rand and Egwene.  The debate is warranted and healthy but its still lacking.  Rand will know the amarylin's anger and that is to be expected with all that has happened at the Black Tower.  However, I think one thing we do not have enough intel on would be exactly what type of person Rand is now especially with what happened in VoG.  This may be misplaced here and should go to another thread (and if this is the case I appologize in advance considering this is my first threat) but my belief on the subject is that if Rand has seen his past lives, he will have a near infinite ammount of wisdom to pull from to make the right decisions when the time comes.  As far as knowing Egwene's anger, I was not a big fan of hers until I finished TGS but she needs to be careful where and how she treads with Rand.  Just because he MIGHT have shed this dark persona does NOT mean that he will just be read to be pushed around.  If anything he will be stronger because of it and not harder.  My 2 cents.  Feel free to rip this apart lol.

[Durinax]

Durinax, I think FarShainMael did a good enough job, that I won't add anything beyond that Egwene's loving Rand shouldn't mean she has to trust him. I do think she blames him for too much, but how can you say she's doomed as a leader? She's perhaps the best leader we've seen in the series so far. A bit cocky at times, but that I can forgive.

 

I dont think Egwene is that great of a ruler, all we have seen her do as one is to convince the rebels to actually start moving, and get captured. I dont think a good leader should put themselves in danger such as that, since if Egwene would have been killed the rebellion would have destroyed itself. and everything good she has done thus far would not be possible if she wouldnt have had lessons from Suian, not to mention she does not convince the AS to follow her but rather brow beats them into it. I will with hold further judgement until I see what she does in ToM, but I am rather skeptical that she will be that good of a ruler even though there has been a bit of foreshadowing that she could be the best ever.

 

And I am not saying any prophecies told he would be a ruler or anything, I am just saying that he must be a ruler, not nation would support him if he did not take over the country (except the Aiel for their prophecies), Rand is doing the same thing as Artur Hawkwing by cutting short the Great Game and binding nations to him so he has an army for TG

[azrael.1289]

Nowhere in there does it say he would LEAD anything.

The only piece of prophecy I can think of that mentions anything like that is "and he shall wear a crown of swords", implying he'll rule Illian (for a time, and not that it's his right to do so). Oh, and "he shall bind the nine moons to serve him", though the emphasis here is on 'serve', not 'bind'.

The deal with the Stone of Tear isn't a good example. It's been said that it wouldn't fall before he took callandor, not that he should rule Tear.

Do you have other examples?

 

BTW I didn't say I don't understand how he got to where he is. Just that it's not justifiable.

 

Durinax, I think FarShainMael did a good enough job, that I won't add anything beyond that Egwene's loving Rand shouldn't mean she has to trust him. I do think she blames him for too much, but how can you say she's doomed as a leader? She's perhaps the best leader we've seen in the series so far. A bit cocky at times, but that I can forgive.

And no where has Rand indicated that he wants to rule over the world(the very idea of which is absurd since he will die quite soon). He just wants them to be united and fight against the dark forces. I mean can you imagine what would have happened in Tear/Cairhein(sp?)/Andor/ or with AS had Rand been meek and humble?

 

Speaking of things not said in prophecies, where has it been mentioned that the WT plays any role at all(let alone an important one) in TG? Yet Egwene thinks it must be so and almost everything she has done in the last 7/8 books is related to the WT which for all we know might not play any role at all.

 

 

Elaida did what she did out of ignorance about Rand....She asks "Do you think the boy will willingly walk into his prophecized death?". But Egwene knows perfectly well that he will do exactly that, yet she doesn't even show him RESPECT.

 

 

 

 

[yoniy0]

So, because she had good teachers (her mom was the first, and Nynaeve, Moiraine and the WO since then. Siuan was by no means the first), that means she isn't a good leader?

Nevermind what she did with the SAS. Weren't you paying attention during KoD and TGS?

I can't list everything she did in the Tower here, so let me just make a reference to one instance. After she was back with the rebels, she was furious with Siuan, but what did she do? She sat in her tent for hours and thought about what SHE did wrong, how she could do better in the future. Does that remind you of anything? It does to me. It's about all we've been told of the thought processes of the Great Captains. And it seats well with what I know of leadership.

 

BTW I didn't say she was a good ruler. That remains to be seen, as you said. I just think she's a good LEADER, now (I didn't think so before CoT).

 

Edit: azrael.1289, come on. Rand cares a great deal about his honors, and has no patience for people defying him. I don't fault him for the way he treats those who try to control/manipulate/kill him. It's what he does with the others (for example, Darlin, before he got to know him. And Nynaeve. Dylin. The list goes on) that irks me.

[azrael.1289]

So, because she had good teachers (her mom was the first, and Nynaeve, Moiraine and the WO since then. Siuan was by no means the first), that means she isn't a good leader?

Nevermind what she did with the SAS. Weren't you paying attention during KoD and TGS?

I can't list everything she did in the Tower here, so let me just make a reference to one instance. After she was back with the rebels, she was furious with Siuan, but what did she do? She sat in her tent for hours and thought about what SHE did wrong, how she could do better in the future. Does that remind you of anything? It does to me. It's about all we've been told of the thought processes of the Great Captains. And it seats well with what I know of leadership.

 

BTW I didn't say she was a good ruler. That remains to be seen, as you said. I just think she's a good LEADER, now (I didn't think so before CoT).

What she did with SAS? She bullied, lied to, manipulated, blackmailed, threatened people she was supposed to lead. No matter her justifications, none of them are good leadership qualities.

[yoniy0]

What part of "I didn't think so before CoT" did you not get? I agree, she's done some questionable things (I don't care the political menuvering as much. That what you do if you rule AS. It's the deal with the oaths that I find was done in bad taste). It's called a learning curve.

[Shard]

I would say that Egwene is better then Elayne as a ruler. Egwene doesn't needlessly throw troops away like Elayne did when she went after the BA in Caemlyn.

[Durinax]

I would say that Egwene is better then Elayne as a ruler. Egwene doesn't needlessly throw troops away like Elayne did when she went after the BA in Caemlyn.

I think Elayne is the far better leader and ruler, Elayne successfully won a civil war with inferior numbers, and is now building up her territories, and creating new industries within the borders. The main problem I have with Elayne is that she changed the name of rand's school in Caemlyn to morgases school of something

[azrael.1289]

What part of "I didn't think so before CoT" did you not get? I agree, she's done some questionable things (I don't care the political menuvering as much. That what you do if you rule AS. It's the deal with the oaths that I find was done in bad taste). It's called a learning curve.

Yes, reading Egwene in TGS was a pleasure and her actions there were admirable but it does not make her the "best leader we have seen" either atleast IMHO

[Glowbal]

I would say that Egwene is better then Elayne as a ruler. Egwene doesn't needlessly throw troops away like Elayne did when she went after the BA in Caemlyn.

 

Elayne didn't took any troops with her when she went after the BA. Brigitte came with these, to rescue her.

[Aquarius]

I would say that Egwene is better then Elayne as a ruler. Egwene doesn't needlessly throw troops away like Elayne did when she went after the BA in Caemlyn.

Egwene is a better ruler than Elayne because she earned it. She got the job by chance, but actually earned it by beeing strong. Elayne had the job by birth (you might want to call that chance) and didn't fight well for it. She excpected to have the job handed to her nicely. Linking Elayne's rule and the BA is (imho) a misunderstandin : Elayne's rule is Andor, and Andor only. BA sister in Caemlyn is Aes Sedai business only. She's both, so she did it (badly) but it has no bearing on the quality of her rule.

[Durinax]

Quote from: Shard on Today at 09:14:10 AM

I would say that Egwene is better then Elayne as a ruler. Egwene doesn't needlessly throw troops away like Elayne did when she went after the BA in Caemlyn.

 

Egwene is a better ruler than Elayne because she earned it. She got the job by chance, but actually earned it by beeing strong. Elayne had the job by birth (you might want to call that chance) and didn't fight well for it. She excpected to have the job handed to her nicely. Linking Elayne's rule and the BA is (imho) a misunderstandin : Elayne's rule is Andor, and Andor only. BA sister in Caemlyn is Aes Sedai business only. She's both, so she did it (badly) but it has no bearing on the quality of her rule.

how did she earn the position? Egwene did nothing to earn the position, the criteria for whom they chose was based on strength in the power, and them being young, leaving two candidates Egwene, and Nynaeve (not really an option with her temper). It was Suian who put her on the throne. She did nothing to earn the title, she did maneuver well with a large amount of assistance to gain the power that comes with the title

[Aquarius]

how did she earn the position? Egwene did nothing to earn the position, the criteria for whom they chose was based on strength in the power, and them being young, leaving two candidates Egwene, and Nynaeve (not really an option with her temper). It was Suian who put her on the throne. She did nothing to earn the title, she did maneuver well with a large amount of assistance to gain the power that comes with the title

My bad, I guess I should have been clearer : she earned the job after getting it, but earned it nonetheless. earned it far better than Elayne. I couldn't have imagined you were talking about hte actual title which nobody cares about and not the real job that goes with it.