And the Eye of The World was important how?

[rubbernilly]

Possibly, there really isn't enough information to draw that conclusion

 

Wait a minute. You just said so, yourself.

 

Me: The bottom line is that the saidin in the Eye is no different than the filtered saidin available to male Forsaken except for that the DO knows when you channel through his filter and what you are doing with the power. Right?

 

You: Yes.

 

If Aginor could have drawn Saidin from the True Source through the Dark One's filter and regenerated his body, that's fine, but it wouldn't have freed him from the Dark One's manipulations.

 

I've been very careful to present this in small chunks so that we don't misunderstand each other, so I need to stop you there to understand... what "manipulations" would Aginor have incurred by channeling cord-filtered saidin? Up to now we've talked about "awareness" and "knowledge" that the DO gained through the cord. There has been nothing of control, guidance, or manipulation.

 

If you just mean that the DO would know what Aginor was up to, then OK, I'll go on presenting my case... but I'd say be careful about limiting the description/editorialization of what we know to what we have established up to this point. Just to keep it clear, like I said.

 

Both the Saidin Aginor gets from the Eye and the Saidin he gets from the Dark One are both Saidin, true, but the Saidin in the Eye is not connected to the same Source that the Dark One's Saidin is from. By drawing the Saidin from the Eye Aginor no longer needs to draw Saidin through the filter or from the True Source. This enables him to have clean, untainted, Saidin for his own personal use, which none of the other Forsaken can use. All the other Forsaken will be forced to used the Dark One's filter and have him watch their every move, while Aginor will have an edge. If he'd just done it with the Dark One's filter then the Dark One would know about it, and still be able to monitor him, which he doesn't want.

 

I understand this part, and I'm getting to the point where I will address it. I just want to make sure you know where I'm coming from when I *do* address it... so, the question above.

[dflinn]

I didnt read it all so I may have missed it. Not only was Rand able to use the pool to survive the encounter, but dont forget the army of trollocs about to rush through Tarwin's Gap into the borderlands. The borderlanders were certain they would be over-ran. Rand used the pool to stop them and I am sure put one big crimp in the DO's plans. How much would that change the complexion of things to have had the borderlands crawling with trollocs?

[Kadere]

Possibly, there really isn't enough information to draw that conclusion

 

Wait a minute. You just said so, yourself.

 

Me: The bottom line is that the saidin in the Eye is no different than the filtered saidin available to male Forsaken except for that the DO knows when you channel through his filter and what you are doing with the power. Right?

 

You: Yes.

 

We don't know enough. We don't have a PoV from Aginor. I agree that there's Saidin in the Eye, and the DO is filtering Saidin for Aginor, if that's what your question is about. But we don't know enough to draw a conclusion that Aginor couldn't have done this with the filtered Saidin, or if he needed the Eye Saidin specifically. Clearly Aginor drew on the Saidin in the Eye and regenerated his body, so clearly it worked. All I said "yes" to was that they were both Saidin. Maybe because it was so close to him, maybe because it had been filtered through Saidar, maybe because Aginor knows more about the Power than Moiraine and knew how to internalize it in a certain way. We don't know. All we know, is that he drew the Saidin from the Eye, and that regenerated his body.

 

In other places, like the 13th Depository, they hypothesis that the Eye is more than just Saidin and his amplification abilities in the Power. They support this with the fact that Rand uses the Power he draws from the Eye to level an entire army of shadowspawn unaided, and Moiraine says that even in the Age of Legends, very few people had the strength to channel such a huge source of Saidin.

 

They also hypothesize that Aginor and Balthamel are weaker in the Power coming out of the Bore after 3,000 years of degeneration. Since the body is critical for channeling their decrepit state makes them weaker in the Power then they were before the Bore. This is supported by both their shock when the Green Man kills Balthamel all by himself, and Moiraine states "Aginor was surprised and angry that I held him for as long as I did... I am surprised myself that I held him so long. In the Age of Legends, Aginor was close behind the Kinslayer and Ishamael in power.” It's possible that Aginor was weaker than before and was therefore shocked when Moiraine could stop him, as she was shocked that she was powerful enough to oppose him.

 

The cord attached to Aginor and the Eye "pulsed, and with every throb Aginor grew stronger, more fully fleshed, a man as tall and strong as himself… " so it's possible he gained strength in the Power as well as strength physically. Rand draws upon this same power and with this added boost of Saidin from the Eye can not only level the army of shadowspawn unaided, but also defeat Ba'alzamon. This shows a level and strength in the Power that no one, on only their first extended use of the Power, should be able to reach.

 

This all would make it doubtful Aginor could regenerate with the DO's filtered Saidin, but we don't know enough. It's possible the well itself is a sa'angreal of some kind, which could then support the immense power being used by both Aginor and Rand. All we do know is that the pool contains Saidin, Aginor draws on it, he's regenerated, when Rand draws on it Aginor draws too much and dies, afterwards there is no Saidin left in the Eye.

 

If Aginor could have drawn Saidin from the True Source through the Dark One's filter and regenerated his body, that's fine, but it wouldn't have freed him from the Dark One's manipulations.

 

I've been very careful to present this in small chunks so that we don't misunderstand each other, so I need to stop you there to understand... what "manipulations" would Aginor have incurred by channeling cord-filtered saidin? Up to now we've talked about "awareness" and "knowledge" that the DO gained through the cord. There has been nothing of control, guidance, or manipulation.

 

If you just mean that the DO would know what Aginor was up to, then OK, I'll go on presenting my case... but I'd say be careful about limiting the description/editorialization of what we know to what we have established up to this point. Just to keep it clear, like I said.

 

We can just call it "awareness" and "knowledge" if you want.

[Suttree]

OK, so... if A then B, AND if B then C... then, if A then C.

 

1) Aginor is regenerated/reinvigorated, channeling saidin from the Eye.

2) The saidin in the Eye is different from commonly available saidin (to the Forsaken) only in what the DO knows.

 

Therefore...

 

Aginor could have been rejuvenated by channeling cord-filtered* saidin.

 

Correct?

 

 

*doesn't that sound like a beer commercial? like the DO is putting out advertisements:

"Come to the Mountains of Dhoom for the cord-filtered taste of saidin."

 

It seems obvious that if Aginor could have regenerated himself with cord-filtered Saidin he would have done so already. Why keep his body in a weakened, decrepit state if he could have self regenerated already? Not sure if is this has been mentioned yet but maybe is there a difference because it is referred to as not just saidin but “It might be called the essence of saidin. The Aes Sedai’s words echoed round the dome. “The essence of the male half of the True Source, the pure essence of the Power wielded by men before the Time of Madness." Something about it's quality allows him to regenerate which does hint the eye is more than just a source of Saidin... recall how it was created "The Green Man tells them how the Eye of the World was made, in the first days of the Breaking, a hundred Aes Sedai working together, both men and women" it is an ongoing theme in the series that what is done with both sides of the Power working together is stronger than either alone.

[Mithan]

I think the most important part of it is that Aginor could have used it to blow the Dark Ones Seal open, and that is why Rand had to be there (as he is the only one who could have stopped him). 

 

From a technical perspective, it is obvious that RJ didn't have the entire 12-14 book series in mind when he wrote the first book though. 

[Agitel]

Does the Eye allow the channeler to channel more than he would be able to normally without burning out? It seems to be the case. Considering that few angreal and sa'angreal seem to be hard to come by for the Forsaken, perhaps what allowed Aginor to regenerate was the ADDITIONAL power given to him by the Eye, moreso than he could draw. The Dark One only filtered Saidin for his Chosen, he didn't grant them the ability to use more. We also don't know how much extra it would allow them to draw.

[rubbernilly]

We don't know enough. We don't have a PoV from Aginor.

 

No, but we have a quote from RJ. Asked point-blank about the importance of the Eye to Aginor and why he was so interested in it (as compared to the cord-filtered saidin otherwise available to him), RJ doesn't talk about the regenerative effects of the Eye-saidin. He doesn't talk about the 3000 years reducing Aginor's strength in the power and the Eye being especially capable of restoring that. He talks about the knowledge that the DO would have if Aginor channeled through the cord.

 

If the regenerative stuff was true he would have said so, or at the very least, he would have given a RAFO answer if he wanted to do more with it.

 

The Eye-saidin is no more regenerative than any other saidin.

 

I think you see where I'm going with this now, because just a few posts ago we had agreement (I thought) on this very point.

 

The arguments *against* this and *for* it having a regenerative effect boil down to the following (apologies if I miss any, just point them out again):

 

1) Amplification Abilities (allowing him to level the Shadowspawn army)

He leveled part of them. And he nearly burned himself out doing it (see all the references to "heat of the sun," and "heat of the Light" in that passage). But look at what is said of Aginor channeling. Aginor had a rope thicker than a blacksmith's arm before Rand even had a finger. If there were an amplifying effect, Aginor should have been able to easily swat Rand aside.

 

1a) Amplification Abilities (defeating Ba'alzamon)

Ishamael is surprised, number one. Rand shows up already wielding the power. Second, Ishamael has no worry that Rand can actually do something with the power. Rand is an untrained shepherd. No reason to raise shields just yet; let's open a channel and -- what the hell do you mean he fired photon torpedoes?

 

:)

 

Also, I don't think that Rand's sword in that scene is a function of the amount of power he was channeling so much as it was something that he did *with* that power. Either option would be a matter of opinion (short of a quote from RJ/BS to clear that up), but it seems the more likely solution to me. It is also a more plausible, workable solution in that I buy that Rand wouldn't know exactly what he did.

 

I don't think that Ishamael anticipated Rand's attack; I don't think he anticipated the form of that attack (the particular Web Rand used); nor do I think he expected that Rand would attack him as Rand did.

 

2) Aginor and Balthamel were possibly weaker (witness Someshta killing Balthamel and Aginor's shock)

Aginor isn't stunned at Someshta being able to kill Balthamel. That wouldn't make sense: if Aginor were diminished himself, he would have to know the same about Balthamel, who seems even *more* affected by 3000 years of the Wheel turning. If Aginor were diminished, he would *not* be surprised that Balthamel was taken out "so easily."

 

BTW, tell Someshta that it was "easy."

 

In any case, Aginor isn't stunned by Balthamel's death. He's actually stunned by the out-spring of life as Someshta fell... at the oak that shoots up to its full height. He isn't stunned until long after the moment when Balthamel dies.

 

And, another thing... read the passage again: it says "even Aginor was stunned." Which means that the 3rd Agers are stunned, too. They wouldn't be "stunned" that the mythical "Green Man" could have killed a Forsaken. They wouldn't even know what the Green Man was capable of. They themselves were stunned witnessing the oak springing up as Someshta fell.

 

The last bit of evidence you gave for Aginor being possibly weaker was the quote about him beginning to appear robust. I'll answer that in two ways:

a) cum hoc ergo propter hoc -- yes, he channels and he regenerates, but that doesn't make the Eye special or different from other saidin; in fact, we have the RJ quote to tell us it wasn't special (at least in that way)

b) the quote deals with all physical regeneration, and relies on *speculation* about the importance of a body to extrapolate into regenerating his True Source abilities.

 

3) Why didn't Aginor Regenerate Sooner?

In other words, why would he wait if not because he *had* to wait to get to the Eye?

 

But who is to say that he waited? The toxic twins weren't just out wandering the Blight on a sight-seeing mission. (Aginor: "Wow, they've really let Paaren Disen go." Balthamel: "Nnn... nnnnn. Nnnn nnnnnn nnnn." Aginor: "Oh, shut up. You always were a complainer.")

 

Much more likely that they arrived there by Gate or were "released" from their imprisonment near that spot... probably a Gate if what we suspect/know about the Green Man's home resembling TAR is true. It is more likely that it is simply a matter of how much Aginor was channeling before he started to regenerate.

 

They haven't been free for very long before Mat's Shadar Logoth dagger guides them where they are going, so there is no reason to believe that they somehow waited before channeling and regenerating themselves.

 

 

 

In the end, we have no reason to believe that the Eye-saidin is different from the cord-filtered saidin... and we *do* have RJ's quote that they aren't different.

 

I'll go on with my case tomorrow... too late right now. Just wanted to lay a few things out.

[Malruhn]

Here's something to chew upon...

 

What happens if the info given to Moraine was ever so slightly off?  What happens if the stuff in the Eye wasn't Saidin - OR Saidar... but an actual collection of a Creator version of The True Power (as granted/given/supplied by the DO)??  The True Power gives abilities that are significantly different than the One Power... so perhaps this can descrive what the Eye bestowed.

 

Just a thought.

[Agitel]

2) Aginor and Balthamel were possibly weaker (witness Someshta killing Balthamel and Aginor's shock)

Aginor isn't stunned at Someshta being able to kill Balthamel. That wouldn't make sense: if Aginor were diminished himself, he would have to know the same about Balthamel, who seems even *more* affected by 3000 years of the Wheel turning. If Aginor were diminished, he would *not* be surprised that Balthamel was taken out "so easily."

 

BTW, tell Someshta that it was "easy."

 

In any case, Aginor isn't stunned by Balthamel's death. He's actually stunned by the out-spring of life as Someshta fell... at the oak that shoots up to its full height. He isn't stunned until long after the moment when Balthamel dies.

 

And, another thing... read the passage again: it says "even Aginor was stunned." Which means that the 3rd Agers are stunned, too. They wouldn't be "stunned" that the mythical "Green Man" could have killed a Forsaken. They wouldn't even know what the Green Man was capable of. They themselves were stunned witnessing the oak springing up as Someshta fell.

 

I'm afraid I have to disagree about the stunned comment. We get the whole sequence between the Forsaken and the Green Man unbroken by the others. I just reread the passage. Them being stunned could easily have been in response to everything that happened, rather than just the sudden growth of plants.

[rubbernilly]

I can understand there could be a different take on that part, but the first part of my argument against Aginor being "stunned" by Balthamel's death still holds... namely that he if Aginor were lessened by his long captivity, he would have to know that Balthamel was, too.

[mellojoe]

In every SERIES of books, the first (the one in which the publishing company and author discover whether or not there will be MORE) usually ends with some big event.

 

Often times we find out that that big event wasn't that big.  It is only Act 1 in the series of acts.

 

However, since the series could be a flop and could, potentially, end at that very first book, there has to be enough of an "ending" to stand by itself.

 

Thus, we find out that Ishmael isn't really the DO, he's just posing as him.  If the series hadn't sold well and stopped, it would have been a decent enough ending.  The good guy finds the mystical pool of power and defeats the DO.

 

Since the series took off, the importance of that first defeat is downplayed.  I just assumed that the Eye wasn't that big of a deal, except that it seemed so because it was the first challenge our young hero's face.

[Kadere]

This big speech you give is impressive, but fundamentally pointless. This debate we've been having is about two things a) Why did Aginor and Balthamel want the Eye? and b) What is the importance of the Eye to the story at large?

 

Back in your original posts you talked about how the string connected to Aginor was from the Dark One and that the Dark One was giving Aginor his strength and youth back, not the Eye. Which is untrue. Now your on board with the idea that the Eye did it and you want to know how. You want me to go on defending theories and speculation, without offering any of your own as though this is my job. The book doesn't offer much of an answer. We don't know the full nature of the Eye of the World. RJ even stated, as was posted way back at the beginning of the thread:

 

I asked him exactly why the pool of untainted saidin was needed at the Eye of the World. He kind of gave me a RAFO. RJ said that he has an idea of what he wants that to have been for, but he's not sure he's going to use it, so he didn't want to give me information and then change his mind later.

 

Which means all of this might be answered in AMoL, or after the series is done we can pepper Brandon with questions and find out.

 

Suttree talks about how they say that what's in the Eye is the "essance" of Saidin, so maybe whatever that is has the power to do what it does.

 

You talk about how clearly the Eye couldn't have been responsible for killing the shadowspawn army because "He leveled part of them. And he nearly burned himself out doing it (see all the references to "heat of the sun," and "heat of the Light" in that passage)." As though that proves anything. He drew a thimble of the stuff in the Eye and only leveled more of an army unaided then he's been able to do holding Callandor.

 

And then you say "But look at what is said of Aginor channeling. Aginor had a rope thicker than a blacksmith's arm before Rand even had a finger. If there were an amplifying effect, Aginor should have been able to easily swat Rand aside." As though you were in Aginor's head and he should have acted by your logic. But Aginor didn't. He's a greedy little weasel who instead drew more then he could handle, possibly in order to EASILY SWAT RAND ASIDE, but he drew too much and died.

 

You go on and on about how the stuff in the Eye had to be just clean Saidin, yet you know that Rand's not going to grow his hand back thanks to the fact he cleaned Saidin. Everything at the end of EotW supports the fact that there's more to the Eye then just being clean Saidin. RJ stated "For someone as secretive, competitive, and generally untrustworthy as the one of the Forsaken, the Eye of the World amounted to a valuable asset if it could be secured. To put it simply, Aginor saw a means of channeling without the Dark One looking over his shoulder, and maybe a way to increase his own power at the expense of those who didn't have that advantage." And that's the answer to all of your questioning.

 

No, he's not going to carry the Eye on his back where ever he goes. No, the taint-filtered Saidin obviously couldn't do what the Eye could. We DO NOT know why the Eye could do what it did. As RJ stated, he might tell us in the future, he might not.

 

But none of this has to do with Aginor and Balthamel's motivations to take the Eye. You haven't given one shred of evidence, or one thought out theory as to why they'd want it. You just seem to be convinced that the Eye is worthless and that the entire climax of the first book should have been scrapped. We don't even have the complete story yet, Rand hasn't even been back in the Blight yet, and you're already convinced it was pointless to go there in the first place.

 

Even though we CLEARLY have an answer that Aginor and Balthamel could have gotten their strength back. Even though we CLEARLY know their motivations to go to the Eye. Even though we CLEARLY know that this played an important point in Rand coming to the idea of cleansing Saidin. Even though we CLEARLY know that Rand fighting here meant that the Dark One lost the edge he'd had on the seasons and the growing Blight. Even though we CLEARLY know this was important in Rand figuring out he could channel, and then figure out he was the Dragon Reborn. Even though we CLEARLY know that this was important so he'd go off on his own in the next book and find his role in the Pattern. And even though RJ's stated we might get further answered to the Eye's importance in later volumes, like the LAST volume. You want to claim the whole thing was pointless and that RJ's answer doesn't make sense.

 

Aginor and Balthamel wanted to use whatever the Eye was to gain back their power and to seperate themselves from the DO because they  weren't "certain whether or not the Dark One also would know what [they were] doing when [they] channeled." Because they are "secretive, competitive, and generally untrustworthy" of the Dark One as well as each other.

 

In fact, even in RJ's quote which you seem to think supports the idea that the Eye was only Saidin and you said "He doesn't talk about the 3000 years reducing Aginor's strength in the power and the Eye being especially capable of restoring that. He talks about the knowledge that the DO would have if Aginor channeled through the cord."  He does say "To put it simply, Aginor saw a means of channeling without the Dark One looking over his shoulder, and maybe a way to increase his own power at the expense of those who didn't have that advantage." Which speaks to Aginor increasing "his own power."

 

RJ was trying to answer a complex question as bare bones as he could because a) he might tell us more later, and b) he's not going to sit there and type out 5,000 words examining every inch and every line of that section. Instead he answered the questions as simply as possible. He answered why Aginor was so interested in the Eye (it gave him a way to channel without using the DO's filter) and why the Saidin-filter wasn't good enough for Aginor and Balthamel (because he didn't want the DO "looking over his shoulder"). Those questions aren't even asking what the nature of the Eye is, or what Aginor's exact state was before the Eye. It isn't asking about how the Eye healed him. None of that question apparently needed an RAFO, the question wasn't about the Eye being regenerative. We KNOW it's regenerative because Aginor REGENERATES HIMSELF WITH IT. So you can't use that quote to back up the idea that the Eye is simply Saidin and couldn't do everything it does.

 

Your misinterpretations of characters motivations, your rewriting of events to make the Eye seem less powerful than it is, your trying to use RJ's quote to disprove RJ's quote, and your discounting evidence with nothing more then your opinion only goes to show that you're incredibly uninterested in having a clear discussion or learn the answers to any of your problems. You've steered the discussion all by yourself to become nothing but "What is the nature of the Eye? We don't know? Well then RJ's an idiot." When that wasn't even what we were discussing in the first place.

 

Some of the point of the Eye is already clear. Rand stopped the DO's hold on the world with it. Rand beat Ba'alzamon for the first time with it. Rand stopped another of the Forsaken with it. He saved the Sheinaran army with it. Rand completed his channeling with it. They got the Horn of Valere and the Dragon Banner and a seal of the Dark One's prison from it learning that the Dark One was breaking free. Other things we don't know. We don't know what the "essense of Saidin" means. We don't know how it regenerates a body. We don't know how it would be used as a source instead of the True Source. We don't know a lot of things. But that doesn't mean that RJ didn't know. It doesn't mean he doesn't have a huge list of notes on what makes the Eye tick, and it doesn't mean we have the full story yet to know if it'll have any future importance.

 

But so far you've given this discussion nothing to show that the Eye was pointless, or that Aginor and Balthamel's motivations weren't there, or that RJ's quote is inaccurate. And if you're not going to, then I find no point in the future of this discussion.

 

 

[rubbernilly]

I guess you're back to wanting a pissing match.

 

You see, this is why I was trying to take it slow. I was trying to keep you from getting confused. I wanted to get consensus on main points in small steps, because I couldn’t walk away from the saidin in the Eye without you calling it ‘pure,’ as if that meant something. I couldn’t walk away from what the filter meant without you calling it ‘manipulations,’ as if that was more than simple knowledge and awareness.

 

This big speech you give is impressive, but fundamentally pointless. This debate we've been having is about two things a) Why did Aginor and Balthamel want the Eye? and b) What is the importance of the Eye to the story at large?

 

And, since I have begun this point by point progression, I have focused on Aginor’s (and, by extension, Balthamel’s) motivation. The other I was leaving aside for now.

 

I don’t want to go through your post line by line, but let me show you some places where you are misunderstanding me or the state of the debate.

 

Back in your original posts you talked about how the string connected to Aginor was from the Dark One…

 

Actually, that was in a different thread, and it was because I misunderstood the question that I was answering from the original poster. If you would have read just a few posts beyond that, I corrected myself and explained my error.

 

... and that the Dark One was giving Aginor his strength and youth back, not the Eye. Which is untrue.

 

Right, which is why when I spoke of that, I was comparing the POV of a reader of tEotW (especially before tGH had been published) with what we know now. Remember, that was in the context of me explaining how RJ was trying to give a false sense of completion to the climax of this book… let me spell it out…

 

a) I claimed RJ gave the book a false sense of an ending

b) Part of that false sense of an ending is Aginor claiming that the DO would soon be free and give him new flesh

c) Aginor gets what a first time reader might call “new flesh” while channeling from the Eye

 

Conclusion: Because of the claim regarding the DO, a first time reader might think that the DO must be involved even though the text says that channeling from the Eye seemed to regenerate him (after all, this is from Rand’s perspective). They might even carry this conclusion forward through more books. Looking back on this from the POV of we who have read more, though, we know more about the DO’s manner of “giving new flesh,” and that what happened to Aginor was completely different.

 

The whole bullet point was about RJ giving a false sense to the ending. Not about what was “really” going on.

 

Separately, I addressed the regenerative powers of saidin and what it meant to Aginor. Or, I was in my point by point progression.

 

Now your on board with the idea that the Eye did it and you want to know how.

 

Actually, I was always on board with it. I just don’t think that it was uniquely regenerative. And I’m not asking “how” it regenerated him. I am simply open to you explaining to me why the Eye was uniquely important to him… when RJ’s answer was all about the filter.

 

You want me to go on defending theories and speculation, without offering any of your own as though this is my job.

 

No, I was in the process of laying out my case, getting to the point where I could present a conclusion. But, as with stopping to clarify what you meant by ‘pure’ and what you meant by ‘manipulation,’ I had to stop when you brought up 3 or 4 different theories. Now, if you don’t believe those theories, then you don’t have to defend them… but then don’t bring them up as if they answer/dispute what I am saying.

 

You talk about how clearly the Eye couldn't have been responsible for killing the shadowspawn army because "He leveled part of them. And he nearly burned himself out doing it (see all the references to "heat of the sun," and "heat of the Light" in that passage)." As though that proves anything. He drew a thimble of the stuff in the Eye and only leveled more of an army unaided then he's been able to do holding Callandor.

 

Hyperbole aside, my point was that we have no count given to the Shadowspawn army before that point. Only after, when they are still counted at 2 to 1. There just isn’t enough information here to say that the Eye had an amplifying effect.

 

And then you say "But look at what is said of Aginor channeling. Aginor had a rope thicker than a blacksmith's arm before Rand even had a finger. If there were an amplifying effect, Aginor should have been able to easily swat Rand aside." As though you were in Aginor's head and he should have acted by your logic.

 

No, he should have just acted with cohesive motivations.

 

He had *already* swatted Nynaeve, Egwene, Lan… I’d have to go to the text to find out the exact list, but a number of people. He had already swatted them aside before he ever started channeling from the Eye. If the Eye had any sort of amplifying effect, any little bit should have been MORE than enough.

 

You go on and on about how the stuff in the Eye had to be just clean Saidin, yet you know that Rand's not going to grow his hand back thanks to the fact he cleaned Saidin.

 

You think that is an extension of my argument, that Rand should get his hand back if all saidin is so regenerative? That’s ridiculous. Nothing about regeneration/reinvigoration implies restoration or outright healing. Sammael is another example. He was a vigorous man, but he still wore a scar. Healing is a different mechanic completely.

 

But none of this has to do with Aginor and Balthamel's motivations to take the Eye. You haven't given one shred of evidence, or one thought out theory as to why they'd want it.

Um, exactly. That’s my point. Their motivations are… off. I think it’s a consequence of the false ending RJ was attempting to create.

 

Even though we CLEARLY have an answer that Aginor and Balthamel could have gotten their strength back.

I’m not buying that. And if you are talking about strength in the Power, neither were you buying that earlier, when you said you doubted that they had been reduced.

 

Even though we CLEARLY know their motivations to go to the Eye.

That’s what we’re debating.

 

Even though we CLEARLY know that this played an important point in Rand coming to the idea of cleansing Saidin.

That is important to the series, but not to the ending of this book. And that’s my point… that this book seemed like an artificial ending, partially because of Aginor’s messed up motivations.

 

Even though we CLEARLY know that Rand fighting here meant that the Dark One lost the edge he'd had on the seasons and the growing Blight. Even though we CLEARLY know this was important in Rand figuring out he could channel, and then figure out he was the Dragon Reborn. Even though we CLEARLY know that this was important so he'd go off on his own in the next book and find his role in the Pattern. And even though RJ's stated we might get further answered to the Eye's importance in later volumes, like the LAST volume. You want to claim the whole thing was pointless and that RJ's answer doesn't make sense.

 

Aginor and Balthamel wanted to use whatever the Eye was to gain back their power and to seperate themselves from the DO because they  weren't "certain whether or not the Dark One also would know what [they were] doing when [they] channeled." Because they are "secretive, competitive, and generally untrustworthy" of the Dark One as well as each other.

 

In fact, even in RJ's quote which you seem to think supports the idea that the Eye was only Saidin and you said "He doesn't talk about the 3000 years reducing Aginor's strength in the power and the Eye being especially capable of restoring that. He talks about the knowledge that the DO would have if Aginor channeled through the cord."  He does say "To put it simply, Aginor saw a means of channeling without the Dark One looking over his shoulder, and maybe a way to increase his own power at the expense of those who didn't have that advantage." Which speaks to Aginor increasing "his own power."

 

See, there you go again… using “power” as if it meant strength in the One Power when you yourself doubted this just a few posts ago. I think a better definition of “power” as it’s used in RJ’s quote is “influence” or “sway.”

 

RJ was trying to answer a complex question as bare bones as he could because a) he might tell us more later, and b) he's not going to sit there and type out 5,000 words examining every inch and every line of that section. Instead he answered the questions as simply as possible. He answered why Aginor was so interested in the Eye (it gave him a way to channel without using the DO's filter) and why the Saidin-filter wasn't good enough for Aginor and Balthamel (because he didn't want the DO "looking over his shoulder").

He answered the question of why the Eye was important to A & B. He doesn’t have to answer in 5000 words. It’s just that whatever he does answer with had better be the thing that makes the Eye important, since that was what the question was.

 

Those questions aren't even asking what the nature of the Eye is, or what Aginor's exact state was before the Eye. It isn't asking about how the Eye healed him. None of that question apparently needed an RAFO, the question wasn't about the Eye being regenerative. We KNOW it's regenerative because Aginor REGENERATES HIMSELF WITH IT.

We just don’t know that it was uniquely regenerative.

 

So you can't use that quote to back up the idea that the Eye is simply Saidin and couldn't do everything it does.

Sure I can. The logic follows.

 

Your misinterpretations of characters motivations, your rewriting of events to make the Eye seem less powerful than it is, your trying to use RJ's quote to disprove RJ's quote, and your discounting evidence with nothing more then your opinion only goes to show that you're incredibly uninterested in having a clear discussion or learn the answers to any of your problems. You've steered the discussion all by yourself to become nothing but "What is the nature of the Eye? We don't know? Well then RJ's an idiot." When that wasn't even what we were discussing in the first place.

 

Some of the point of the Eye is already clear. Rand stopped the DO's hold on the world with it. Rand beat Ba'alzamon for the first time with it. Rand stopped another of the Forsaken with it. He saved the Sheinaran army with it. Rand completed his channeling with it. They got the Horn of Valere and the Dragon Banner and a seal of the Dark One's prison from it learning that the Dark One was breaking free. Other things we don't know. We don't know what the "essense of Saidin" means. We don't know how it regenerates a body. We don't know how it would be used as a source instead of the True Source. We don't know a lot of things. But that doesn't mean that RJ didn't know. It doesn't mean he doesn't have a huge list of notes on what makes the Eye tick, and it doesn't mean we have the full story yet to know if it'll have any future importance.

 

Most of that is just personal attack and attributing motivations to me that simply aren’t true. I’m not trying to use RJ’s quote to disprove RJ. I discount with opinion only when the thing under question is a matter of opinion. Most of what I wrote discounting the 3 or 4 theories you brought up dealt in evidence and simple logic. And, like I said, I have been recently discussing Aginor’s motivation.

 

That should clear up a bunch of misconceptions that are lodged in there.

 

[rubbernilly]

Well stated, mellojoe.

[scion9]

I think the significance, or lack thereof of the Eye is sort of covered by Moiraine in tGH, in regards to the fall of the stone of Tear in prophecy.  To the lay persons of the world (which sort of includes we clueless readers who do not have command of the Old Tongue and copies of the Prophecies at hand) the fall of the Stone is highly significant.  Moiraine states it's simply a single event in a procession of events that leads to TG.  The Eye is as important as Callandor, Rhuidean, etc.

 

Prophets, including AoL Aes Sedai with a more complete command over their prophetic talents made the Eye and other things that would guide and aid the Dragon in defeating the Dark One.  They knew why it would be significant, even though Moiraine et al do not. 

 

Even so, without the Eye and Rand's instrumental presence on the battlefield at Tarwin's Gap; Agelmar seems certain that the Borderlands will be overrun.  That's a significantly different series of events.  If Trollocs overrun the Borderlands (probably more), and the Forsaken gain command of the Eye, the Horn, etc then many other necessary prophecies never come to pass and the 'Best of All Possible Worlds' that RJ is presenting us is instead another Mirror of the Wheel.

 

The Eye could be seen at least as the first domino to fall, that would lead to the rest being fulfilled.  I wouldn't be terribly disatisfied if the AoL Aes Sedai had made the Eye for the purpose of the Eye's existence being necessary to fulfill prophecy.  We don't need to look at it in a vacuum.  As in , why it would have been a specifically useful tool.  I'm willing to bet that Callandor's "flaw" is similarly lacking in any other use than it being a necessity in fulfilling prophecy.  The creators of Callandor knew what to make and where to put it because they had Foretelling guiding their hands; not because they were engineers making the best sa'angreal that they could.