Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[Hadilmir]

That could be a supremely opportunistic lie.  How did Semirhage know she was going to die otherwise?  I realize she had the collar but it is not clear if it is functional where the TP is concerned.  Unless Rand somehow forced her to channel it against herself.

No... she felt him go against her will and saw him destroy the Domination Band without Saidin. I'd say what was happening was very clear to anyone who knew of the TP. Also, the TP is much more destructive than Saidar, she knew she was dead the second she figured out that the spear of fire hadn't been Saidin.

[farthammer]

Yeah you're right I must've been smoking crack when I thought up that one.

[Random Man]

Simple question: Why don't the Forsaken go after Mat and Perrin personally?  We've heard so often how they demolished whole cities in the AOL and are so greatly feared.  Why then don't they just Travel (they know where Mat and Perrin are), fireball away and split?  What are they afraid of?

 

If we look at the following passage from KoD, we can discern three things:

 

1. The Forsaken don't have a clue where Mat and Perrin are

2. The Forsaken can't make much use of their ta'veren nature to find them because the Pattern is all topsy-turvy and difficult to read.

3. The other Forsaken didn't even know what Mat and Perrin looked like before Ishy showed them. Classic failure to share information.

 

KOD, Chapter 3  pp. 148-149 (hardcover)

 

"If you want to kill someone," [Moridin] went on, "kill these two!" suddenly the semblances of two young men in rough country clothes stood in the center of the circle, turning so that everyone could get a good look at their faces... [Moridin continuing] "Perrin Aybara and Mat Cauthon are ta'veren, easily found. Find them and kill them."

Graendal laughed, a mirthless sound. "Finding ta'veren was never as simple as you made out, and now it's harder than ever. The whole Pattern is in flux, full of shifts and spikes."

"Perrin Aybara and Mat Cauthon," Semirhage murmured, inspecting the two shapes. "So that is what they look like. Who knows, Moridin. If you had shared this with us before now, they might already have been dead."

Moridin's fist came down hard on the arm of his chair. "Find them! Make doubly sure that your followers know their faces. Find Aybara and Cauthon and kill them...[and so on]

The "make sure your followers know their faces" part and Mat finding the portraits in TGS tells us that the Forsaken, unable to find them directly due to the above-mentioned problems, are resorting to having their followers find Mat and Perrin for them rather than waste the time trying to guess where in the Light they might be. If a Darkfriend reported back to them once positive ID was made instead of trying to take them in person, I'd assume that one of the Forsaken might try to go after them directly.

[farthammer]

Unless one of them started interfering with their own schemes, or the DO started to turn the heat up a bit to get them killed, there aren't many selfish reasons for them to get aggressive about it.  There is a subtle thing that seems to be going on in that quoted passage and it's they don't care that much.

[KefkaPalazzo]

I disagree.  There are a few reasons I see for the lack of action, but "uncaring"?  I'm not too sure about that one.

 

-They still see the title of Nae'blis as up for grabs.  If they play dumb and ignore Mat and Perrin, Moridin looks like the idiot, and might, in their eyes, lose the title. 

-Then there's the fact that they all have their own reasons for wanting RAND dead and being the one to do it. 

-They also have spent their entire lives working against each other as much as they work against the Light, and the whole "teamwork" thing is NEVER easy for the bad guys to pick up.

-For all the fear they are associated with, they really aren't all that bright.  Witness the cleansing and how easily they COULD have won, and how badly they all had their backsides handed to them.

[farthammer]

If killing them had been a strong way to be placed above the other Forsaken they would have spent more time looking.  That is really the only reason for them to care.  Mat and Perrin have also not inherited the kind of legacy Rand has with them.

 

Also I think many of your points demonstrate that they have higher personal priorities.  To this point in the series I have not seen much interest, and I don't know what you are seeing indicating otherwise.

[Random Man]

While it may certainly be true that the Forsaken don't really care if Mat and Perrin get offed anytime soon and have their own reasons for not being aggressive on the matter, from the passage I quoted earlier in KoD it's pretty obvious that they had no idea where either Mat or Perrin were at the time -- unless they (including Moridin) were all playing dumb, of which I doubt, since if Moridin knew he'd just take care of it himself or tell them where to find them. Instead, he commands the other Forsaken to find them for him. This means that Moridin doesn't know where they are and either isn't able, or doesn't have the time, to find them himself. And the other Forsaken haven't found them yet, either. That's a much simpler reason for why Mat and Perrin haven't been attacked yet.

[farthammer]

How is not even looking for them, not even bothering to find out what they look like not as simple?  We are practically arguing the same point, are we just down to arguing over semantics?  Any way Ishmael has known what those two looked like since the EotW and showed them at that darkfriend meeting.  He waited 10 books to bother showing it to the forsaken/chosen.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

Ah, yes, the Darkfriend summoning at the beginning of TGH. Ishamael showed their faces to his followers at that time. He should have shared the information with the other Forsaken, but I guess that's just now how a Forsaken's mind works: Other Forsaken are rivals, whereas one's own followers are docile sheep.

 

I'm surprised, though, that Mat and Perrin haven't given away their locations by virtue of how high-profile some of their activities have been.

[Blackhoof]

Pfft, the forsaken are so overrated. Nazgul(lotr) or Steel Inquisitors(Mistborn) make much better uber badguys that these squabbling, teamworkless, communication failures. As oversaid as this is: the forsaken suck.

 

Ps: I know that didn't really contribute to the discussion, but i like stating my opinion.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

Forgive me if this has already been asked elsewhere; I'm sure it has, but I couldn't find it. Before Lews Therin patched the Bore with the Hundred Companions using the seven seals, the Dark One was not fully loose in the world, although things were heading in that direction. My question is, when the seals all break, is their breaking going to fling the Dark One loose, or is the Dark One still going to be unable to pass fully through the Bore? Or is that something we don't know yet?

[Durinax]

Forgive me if this has already been asked elsewhere; I'm sure it has, but I couldn't find it. Before Lews Therin patched the Bore with the Hundred Companions using the seven seals, the Dark One was not fully loose in the world, although things were heading in that direction. My question is, when the seals all break, is their breaking going to fling the Dark One loose, or is the Dark One still going to be unable to pass fully through the Bore? Or is that something we don't know yet?

I imagine that its going to be like a small hole in a dam, as soon as the caulking is gone then the area around the original bore will start cracking so rand will have very little time

[Dreamwalker]

Simple question: Why don't the Forsaken go after Mat and Perrin personally?  We've heard so often how they demolished whole cities in the AOL and are so greatly feared.  Why then don't they just Travel (they know where Mat and Perrin are), fireball away and split?  What are they afraid of?

 

If we look at the following passage from KoD, we can discern three things:

 

1. The Forsaken don't have a clue where Mat and Perrin are

2. The Forsaken can't make much use of their ta'veren nature to find them because the Pattern is all topsy-turvy and difficult to read.

3. The other Forsaken didn't even know what Mat and Perrin looked like before Ishy showed them. Classic failure to share information.

 

KOD, Chapter 3  pp. 148-149 (hardcover)

 

"If you want to kill someone," [Moridin] went on, "kill these two!" suddenly the semblances of two young men in rough country clothes stood in the center of the circle, turning so that everyone could get a good look at their faces... [Moridin continuing] "Perrin Aybara and Mat Cauthon are ta'veren, easily found. Find them and kill them."

Graendal laughed, a mirthless sound. "Finding ta'veren was never as simple as you made out, and now it's harder than ever. The whole Pattern is in flux, full of shifts and spikes."

"Perrin Aybara and Mat Cauthon," Semirhage murmured, inspecting the two shapes. "So that is what they look like. Who knows, Moridin. If you had shared this with us before now, they might already have been dead."

Moridin's fist came down hard on the arm of his chair. "Find them! Make doubly sure that your followers know their faces. Find Aybara and Cauthon and kill them...[and so on]

The "make sure your followers know their faces" part and Mat finding the portraits in TGS tells us that the Forsaken, unable to find them directly due to the above-mentioned problems, are resorting to having their followers find Mat and Perrin for them rather than waste the time trying to guess where in the Light they might be. If a Darkfriend reported back to them once positive ID was made instead of trying to take them in person, I'd assume that one of the Forsaken might try to go after them directly.

 

I agree that they probably just didn't know what they looked like. For one thing, I think a lot of the Forsaken have underestimated the other two ta'veren anyway, and hadn't gone to the trouble of trying to find out what they looked like.

 

Anyone else notice Semirhage's comment in that passage? I think that if she'd known what Mat looked like she definitely would not have just left him alone in Ebou Dar - they were even living under the same roof for a while! Actually, I doubt she knew that his name was Mat Cauthon while they were both in Ebou Dar (all the Seanchan called him Tylin's Toy and he probably seemed inconsequential) but if she'd known what Mat looked like she would have realized that this was one of the ta'veren right there within arm's reach. She really would have no excuse at all for not trying to kill him if she'd known who he was (and no reason to let him live, honestly) so I think she simply must not have been aware of who he really was. In fact, if she had killed him it would have saved her a lot of trouble because I have a feeling his kidnapping of Tuon messed with her plans a bit.

[Sharaman]

For sure Semi wouldn't have killed him, she had far too much imagination and style for something so crude.

But Mat would have ended up wishing she had.

Obviously Tylin didn't really crack her teeth to use an RJ-ism about Mat to any of the Seanchan.

The odd thing is, nobody else did, since a lot of people in the Tarasin Palace knew who he was.

But then WoT-land works the way it does on consistent lack of communication. 

 

[Random Man]

Forgive me if this has already been asked elsewhere; I'm sure it has, but I couldn't find it. Before Lews Therin patched the Bore with the Hundred Companions using the seven seals, the Dark One was not fully loose in the world, although things were heading in that direction. My question is, when the seals all break, is their breaking going to fling the Dark One loose, or is the Dark One still going to be unable to pass fully through the Bore? Or is that something we don't know yet?

I imagine that its going to be like a small hole in a dam, as soon as the caulking is gone then the area around the original bore will start cracking so rand will have very little time

I don't think your imagination is far off from the truth by any means. IIRC when Demandred visits the DO in LoC prologue, he noticed that the Bore was wider than it had been before, although still held closed by the seals. I don't have a copy of LoC with me so I can't verify that, though. I imagine it as 3000 years of the DO trying to get his metaphorical fingers around the patch that keeps the Pattern closed, so the "fabric" of the Pattern around the seals is getting stretched.

 

The Dark One has to have some sort of cohesiveness, else once the initial Bore was drilled, he'd have been able to just leak out over the 100 or so years between the drilling and the War of Power (kind of like the Gholam slipping through a crack or sliding under a door) but instead was only able to touch the Pattern and slowly corrupt it. The War of Power started when his followers tried to rip the prison open to free him. How much larger the Bore needs to be for the DO to completely escape is anyone's guess.

 

In TGS, Rand flat out said there was no telling what would happen once he broke the seals, although we don't know how much of this was LTT's reflections and how much was Rand simply acknowledging his own ignorance on the matter. There was plenty of knowledge crossing back and forth between Rand's self-imposed mental partition of selves so who knows?

[Random Man]

For sure Semi wouldn't have killed him, she had far too much imagination and style for something so crude.

But Mat would have ended up wishing she had.

Obviously Tylin didn't really crack her teeth to use an RJ-ism about Mat to any of the Seanchan.

The odd thing is, nobody else did, since a lot of people in the Tarasin Palace knew who he was.

But then WoT-land works the way it does on consistent lack of communication. 

 

There's no real reason why anyone in the Palace with the ear of the High Lady's Truthspeaker would consider Mat as anything of consequence to be remarked upon. He was just the queen's emasculated toy -- and one who wasn't up to doing much after the Return, since he'd had a wall dropped on him. Tuon wasn't able to discern anything of his true identity while in Ebou Dar, and she took an immediate interest in him after seeing his ring. Perhaps it was an effect of his ta'veren nature that prevented his full name from reaching Semirhage's ears.

 

Moridin gave his order a few books too late, consistent with WOT-land lack of communication (especially among the Shadow, which was an intended theme from the get-go).

[Sharaman]

For sure Semi wouldn't have killed him, she had far too much imagination and style for something so crude.

But Mat would have ended up wishing she had.

Obviously Tylin didn't really crack her teeth to use an RJ-ism about Mat to any of the Seanchan.

The odd thing is, nobody else did, since a lot of people in the Tarasin Palace knew who he was.

But then WoT-land works the way it does on consistent lack of communication. 

 

There's no real reason why anyone in the Palace with the ear of the High Lady's Truthspeaker would consider Mat as anything of consequence to be remarked upon. He was just the queen's emasculated toy -- and one who wasn't up to doing much after the Return, since he'd had a wall dropped on him. Tuon wasn't able to discern anything of his true identity while in Ebou Dar, and she took an immediate interest in him after seeing his ring. Perhaps it was an effect of his ta'veren nature that prevented his full name from reaching Semirhage's ears.

 

Moridin gave his order a few books too late, consistent with WOT-land lack of communication (especially among the Shadow, which was an intended theme from the get-go).

 

The Truth speaker herself was smart enough to know that her unruly charge found Tylin's Toy strangely interestingsince she was present at their first meeting. So she could have asked around just out of curiosity to find out why Tuon found him interesting. In which case, at minimum, from the servants, she'd have learnt his name (which may have been enough by itself since it's known to even lower-level Darkfriends) and maybe that he consorted with AS on a regular basis and treated them with disrespect. Very odd thing for a gigolo to do.

 

Did she not know the Lidia foretelling? Probably not. Did she not notice the ring with the foxes and ravens? Perhaps not - and if she didn't know the foretelling, the ring wouldn't tell her much.

So Mat's luck presumably had something to do with it.

[Random Man]

For sure Semi wouldn't have killed him, she had far too much imagination and style for something so crude.

But Mat would have ended up wishing she had.

Obviously Tylin didn't really crack her teeth to use an RJ-ism about Mat to any of the Seanchan.

The odd thing is, nobody else did, since a lot of people in the Tarasin Palace knew who he was.

But then WoT-land works the way it does on consistent lack of communication. 

 

There's no real reason why anyone in the Palace with the ear of the High Lady's Truthspeaker would consider Mat as anything of consequence to be remarked upon. He was just the queen's emasculated toy -- and one who wasn't up to doing much after the Return, since he'd had a wall dropped on him. Tuon wasn't able to discern anything of his true identity while in Ebou Dar, and she took an immediate interest in him after seeing his ring. Perhaps it was an effect of his ta'veren nature that prevented his full name from reaching Semirhage's ears.

 

Moridin gave his order a few books too late, consistent with WOT-land lack of communication (especially among the Shadow, which was an intended theme from the get-go).

 

The Truth speaker herself was smart enough to know that her unruly charge found Tylin's Toy strangely interestingsince she was present at their first meeting. So she could have asked around just out of curiosity to find out why Tuon found him interesting. In which case, at minimum, from the servants, she'd have learnt his name (which may have been enough by itself since it's known to even lower-level Darkfriends) and maybe that he consorted with AS on a regular basis and treated them with disrespect. Very odd thing for a gigolo to do.

 

Did she not know the Lidia foretelling? Probably not. Did she not notice the ring with the foxes and ravens? Perhaps not - and if she didn't know the foretelling, the ring wouldn't tell her much.

So Mat's luck presumably had something to do with it.

Ah, good catch there. So either Mat got lucky that Semi didn't find out more about him (or she didn't know of the foretelling (which I doubt since she was so close to Tuon and it was explicitly noted that she punished the one who told her fortune while they were on a boat) or didn't notice the ring, or just didn't pursue the oddity she noticed), or she did find out about Mat and let him live for her own reasons and was lying to Moridin to avert suspicion for her letting him live. It makes me wonder whether the latter of those assumptions is the true one because she tried to twist Mat's kidnapping of Tuon to her own advantage (although I don't see how she could have foreseen his kidnapping of Tuon).

[r2debo]

"So either Mat got lucky that Semi didn't find out more about him"

 

That's an understatement. 

 

Thanks for helping answer this question.  It's been one of the more curious aspects of this series, one where I have found myself disappointed.  The Forsaken are less formidable in person than in legend.  Sorilea and Bair exploited this well and Semi hated it.  I guess my disappointment is from what we saw was possible while Rand visited the AOL through the glass columns in Ruidean and not seeing this possibility play out very often.  It's a place of tension for me in the series where I keep asking more from the OP than is being shown realistic.  Jordan has done a great job of turning legend into something less legendary, through the pettiness of the Aes Sedai, the debilitating selfishness of the Forsaken and even the woolen-headedness of Rand.  I'm an idealist so this has been difficult for me in the series but I'm starting to come around to appreciating its subtle theme throughout the series.

[csarmi]

Simple question: Why don't the Forsaken go after Mat and Perrin personally?  We've heard so often how they demolished whole cities in the AOL and are so greatly feared.  Why then don't they just Travel (they know where Mat and Perrin are), fireball away and split?  What are they afraid of?

 

Ta'veren are dangerous, it would be very risky already because of that + they don't know (or even worse: they DO know) what Mat/Perrin have up their sleeves.

 

Forsaken are just channelers, no superhuman. They are more experienced, yes, but any group of 3+ decent channelers would handle them or stop them long enough to die to weapons.

 

Mat has a medallion that stops direct weaves which means it's a very bad idea to attack him directly.

Perrin has keen senses, is extremely fast and dangerous in battle, has an army and adept guards.

[Durinax]

Simple question: Why don't the Forsaken go after Mat and Perrin personally?  We've heard so often how they demolished whole cities in the AOL and are so greatly feared.  Why then don't they just Travel (they know where Mat and Perrin are), fireball away and split?  What are they afraid of?

 

Ta'veren are dangerous, it would be very risky already because of that + they don't know (or even worse: they DO know) what Mat/Perrin have up their sleeves.

 

Forsaken are just channelers, no superhuman. They are more experienced, yes, but any group of 3+ decent channelers would handle them or stop them long enough to die to weapons.

 

Mat has a medallion that stops direct weaves which means it's a very bad idea to attack him directly.

Perrin has keen senses, is extremely fast and dangerous in battle, has an army and adept guards.

not to mention that perrin has both asha man and AS to give him warning as well as his keen senses

and mat also has AS to sense female channellers

[r2debo]

Simple question: Why don't the Forsaken go after Mat and Perrin personally?  We've heard so often how they demolished whole cities in the AOL and are so greatly feared.  Why then don't they just Travel (they know where Mat and Perrin are), fireball away and split?  What are they afraid of?

 

Ta'veren are dangerous, it would be very risky already because of that + they don't know (or even worse: they DO know) what Mat/Perrin have up their sleeves.

 

Forsaken are just channelers, no superhuman. They are more experienced, yes, but any group of 3+ decent channelers would handle them or stop them long enough to die to weapons.

 

Mat has a medallion that stops direct weaves which means it's a very bad idea to attack him directly.

Perrin has keen senses, is extremely fast and dangerous in battle, has an army and adept guards.

 

This has been what has been curious to me in the series.  The the AOL we heard "legends" of the Forsaken wiping out hundreds of thousands of people at a time.  Cities fell at their fury.  Was this simply legend? 

[Shadow Rider]

A question about the True Power....

Do users of the TP have varying strengths like the One Power or does it matter?

[Hadilmir]

This has been what has been curious to me in the series.  The the AOL we heard "legends" of the Forsaken wiping out hundreds of thousands of people at a time.  Cities fell at their fury.  Was this simply legend?

Possibly. Though, by Lews Therin's memories most of the tragedies really did happen, so I just assumed that the Forsaken had access to stolen sa'angreal during the War of Power.

[Express]

This has been what has been curious to me in the series.  The the AOL we heard "legends" of the Forsaken wiping out hundreds of thousands of people at a time.  Cities fell at their fury.  Was this simply legend?

Possibly. Though, by Lews Therin's memories most of the tragedies really did happen, so I just assumed that the Forsaken had access to stolen sa'angreal during the War of Power.

 

The Forsaken had armies of their own to destroy the cities.  Of course they could've Balefired some cities then realized the consequences and stopped but those stories became legend.

 

I have a question about the Forsaken and having any angreal.  If they were sealed away in the bore, wouldn't the items be sealed with them?