Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[Aquarius]

What? All AS from the AoL died away and the current day AS are just the successors of women who taught themselves? Is this based on anything concrete?

I'll have to look it up in the books so don't take it for granted, but yes, that's what I remember...

[Sharaman]

Be'lal refers to the fact that he and LTT resurrected the forgotten art of sword=fighting - he was a blademaster. There's no Dark and Light where weapon mastery is concerned - Toram Riatin and Ryne were both blademasters.

"The Forsaken laughed, amused, swinging his blade in quick flourishes to either side of him; the black

fire roared as if swift passage through the air quickened it. “You were a greater swordsman, once, Lews

Therin,” he said mockingly. “Do you remember when we took that tame sport called swords and learned to kill

with it, as the old volumes said men once had?"

-----------------------------------------

"Normally-forged" swords including katana, which is what the WOT sword is based on, have survived thousands of years without tarnish, or damage.

Justice may be power-forged - OTOH don't forget Hawkwing hated AS and may not have wanted to carry a power-wrought weapon.

There's no direct textual reference to it being power-forged or not.

There are no references to a lake either.

Says it's centuries old, "unearthed recently".

That could mean that it was lying underground in a burial chamber or wrapped up somewhere.

Or simply that it was found recently, without reference to where.

If at all one had to guess, I'd suspect it wasn't power-forged. It's "only" centuries old and the AS had started taking oaths against making weapons with the Power fairly soon after the Breaking (three millennia ago).

 

 

[yoniy0]

You misinterpret what I meant. It has been suggested that maybe Shadow-side generals (back when they didn't need to hide that they were just that) took to marking weaponry with ravens. I merely offered evidence that a Chosen has not.

 

Regarding Justice, do you actually mean that swords buried in earth are known to survive thousands of years? Even when they are carried around they require maintenance, so why wouldn't one be destroyed beyond repair if it just laid there?

I don't know why I thought it was found in a lake, but I do remember reading some discussion about BS supposedly confirming that it was found in that stedding Perrin and Egwene found in TEoTW, near Hawkwing's statue. Am I making a fool of myself here?

[Dreamwalker]

There are no references to a lake either.

 

 

You're right about there being no textual references. BUT...

From the Q&A part C Luckers posted http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,50707.0.html:

18. Question What’s up with Rand’s sword? Was it LTT’s?

 

18. Answer: There are some really good theories out there on the message boards and I don’t have anything to add on this.  [Luckers: I’m not sure if this following sentence means kfc asked a follow up question about Brandon, or whether he found this elsewhere—like on a board. I think he asked Brandon] ---I followed up on where it was found, basically ‘In water, under a statue, not near Falme’

So BS has given us a hint to where it was found.

 

 

I don't know why I thought it was found in a lake, but I do remember reading some discussion about BS supposedly confirming that it was found in that stedding Perrin and Egwene found in TEoTW, near Hawkwing's statue. Am I making a fool of myself here?

I hadn't read confirmation of this - the only quote I've seen is the one I put above - but it sounds like a really good theory to me.

[yoniy0]

Dreamwalker to the rescue. Thanks.

Well now, considering how wrecked ships look after just a few decades in water (and assuming they build them to withstand water, which sounds reasonable, but I really know nothing about this at all), I'll venture a guess that Justice IS Power-wrought.

[Sharaman]

The heron-raven thing, yeah I didn't understand what you were getting at.

 

Well, it could be in a lake - though that quote is a little confusing,

But it could be wrapped inside a waterproof box.

It was given to Rand by people who seem to have found it somewhere in Arad Doman - so nowhere near any of the EotW action.

I think the hint "not near Falme" suggests that it wasn't near the TGH action either.

A lot of katana require very basic maintenance.

If it's swathed in oil and wrapped in a lacquered scabbard, in a waterproof box, well away from air/water, why wouldn't it survive forever?

In any case, if it's centuries old, not millennia, and AS took the oath against power-wrought weapons soon after the Breaking, it may not be power-wrought.

Or it may, there's no textual reference again and no Q&As either.

 

Your ship reference - lots of stuff is pulled out of wrecked ships and restored in working order. This includes things like 1,000 year-old gear-boxes and delicate metal mechanisms. It depends on what the thing is, if it's protected from water, and all sorts of specific chemical reactions.

For that matter, ships and tanks have been pulled out from underwater and set working again with minimal servicing.

http://www.12mbdragoons.com/panzer/ - this hadn't rusted and it's in working order now.

It doesn't have to be power-wrought.

 

[Shadow Rider]

I'm fairly sure Hawkwings sword was Power forged Rand commented that he thought it should have a Heron...he obviously new it was Power forged.

Where? What? No such references at all.

Just that he recognised the blade from his own memories and that it felt right to carry it.

No vibes about herons or it being power wrought.  

 

Sorry to take so long on a reply Sharaman ...I can find the passage referring to the absence of a heron I;ll keep looking but.....Justice was found submerged, I think a sword submerged wouldn't last very long it would be rusted and pitted....but I will find the part I'm looking for and get back to you.....

 

If anyone knows the passage or chapter I'm looking for a little help please....

Rand bares part of the blade and wonders why there is no Heron....

[Durinax]

I'm fairly sure Hawkwings sword was Power forged Rand commented that he thought it should have a Heron...he obviously new it was Power forged.

Where? What? No such references at all.

Just that he recognised the blade from his own memories and that it felt right to carry it.

No vibes about herons or it being power wrought. 

 

Sorry to take so long on a reply Sharaman ...I can find the passage referring to the absence of a heron I;ll keep looking but.....Justice was found submerged, I think a sword submerged wouldn't last very long it would be rusted and pitted....but I will find the part I'm looking for and get back to you.....

 

If anyone knows the passage or chapter I'm looking for a little help please....

Rand bares part of the blade and wonders why there is no Heron....

I'm fairly sure Hawkwings sword was Power forged Rand commented that he thought it should have a Heron...he obviously new it was Power forged.

Where? What? No such references at all.

Just that he recognised the blade from his own memories and that it felt right to carry it.

No vibes about herons or it being power wrought. 

 

Sorry to take so long on a reply Sharaman ...I can find the passage referring to the absence of a heron I;ll keep looking but.....Justice was found submerged, I think a sword submerged wouldn't last very long it would be rusted and pitted....but I will find the part I'm looking for and get back to you.....

 

If anyone knows the passage or chapter I'm looking for a little help please....

Rand bares part of the blade and wonders why there is no Heron....

depends what quality of steel it is, whether it had a casing, etc etc

[Sharaman]

The only description I can unearth is in Chapter 1.

Long, slightly curved, cloth-tied hilt, centuries old, unearthed recently-- it felt right, he recognised it from his own memories.

We don't know if it's power-wrought, or whether it has herons or not. Rand doesn't think about herons or power-wrought weaponry.

 

[Shadow Rider]

The only description I can unearth is in Chapter 1.

Long, slightly curved, cloth-tied hilt, centuries old, unearthed recently-- it felt right, he recognised it from his own memories.

We don't know if it's power-wrought, or whether it has herons or not. Rand doesn't think about herons or power-wrought weaponry.

 

 

I'll look through that chapter but after 2000 years underwater any packaging would have rotted away, assuming it has been there all that time....even 1000yrs

[Sharaman]

The only description I can unearth is in Chapter 1.

Long, slightly curved, cloth-tied hilt, centuries old, unearthed recently-- it felt right, he recognised it from his own memories.

We don't know if it's power-wrought, or whether it has herons or not. Rand doesn't think about herons or power-wrought weaponry.

I'll look through that chapter but after 2000 years underwater any packaging would have rotted away, assuming it has been there all that time....even 1000yrs

Not necessarily - there are a lot of water-resistant casings, including plastics, which would have existed in the AoL.

Many high-quality steels such as those used in SAW pipes could last indefinitely, especially under freshwater.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism - this is a (bronze) geared astro- calculator that was buried underwater for over 2000 years and it was easily restored. I've worked as a merchant seaman and you'd be surprised how much marine salvage comes up in near-working order.

The devil would be in the details. It may be power-wrought, it may not. We don't have enough info to know.

 

[bronnt]

The only description I can unearth is in Chapter 1.

Long, slightly curved, cloth-tied hilt, centuries old, unearthed recently-- it felt right, he recognised it from his own memories.

We don't know if it's power-wrought, or whether it has herons or not. Rand doesn't think about herons or power-wrought weaponry.

I'll look through that chapter but after 2000 years underwater any packaging would have rotted away, assuming it has been there all that time....even 1000yrs

Not necessarily - there are a lot of water-resistant casings, including plastics, which would have existed in the AoL.

Many high-quality steels such as those used in SAW pipes could last indefinitely, especially under freshwater.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism - this is a (bronze) geared astro- calculator that was buried underwater for over 2000 years and it was easily restored. I've worked as a merchant seaman and you'd be surprised how much marine salvage comes up in near-working order.

The devil would be in the details. It may be power-wrought, it may not. We don't have enough info to know.

 

 

But since it's Artur Hawkwing's sword, you have to assume the packaging is something he would have had access to, 2000 years AFTER the Age of Legends.  And it only would have been under the water for about a 1,000 years.

 

Of course, it's almost certainly a power-wrought blade, in which case the whole point is moot.  Power wrought blades never experience wearing or dulling.

[benny the ball]

Ok been doing a re-read start to finish of the series and just spotted somethine i've never relized before. In FoH chapter 32 (a short spear) Rands comments to Avi how he can't shield women from the OP but later shields Asmo. Now when Rand and Asmo are talking Rands comments on how he can't shield women still even though he's sheilding Asmo at the time. Now i assume this means the weave for shielding a man is differnt for shielding a woman and i assume the same holds true with women. Is this right and am i just being a idiot for not of spotting it before or is this just a cock up?

[Shadow Rider]

Ok been doing a re-read start to finish of the series and just spotted somethine i've never relized before. In FoH chapter 32 (a short spear) Rands comments to Avi how he can't shield women from the OP but later shields Asmo. Now when Rand and Asmo are talking Rands comments on how he can't shield women still even though he's sheilding Asmo at the time. Now i assume this means the weave for shielding a man is differnt for shielding a woman and i assume the same holds true with women. Is this right and am i just being a idiot for not of spotting it before or is this just a cock up?

 

Rand didn't shield Asmo, Lanfear did...

[yoniy0]

No, no, benny is right, Rand practices shielding Asmodean but can't remember how he shielded Egwene and Elayne back at the Stone. This issue haunts him during book 5 (but I don't think it lingers any more than that).

Regarding the ladies, this doesn't seem to be an issue for them, unless Egwene is misinformed:

Suddenly she lifted into the air, and Elayne, too; they stared at each other, wide-eyed, as they floated a pace above the carpet. There was nothing holding them, no flows Egwene could feel or see. Nothing. Her mouth tightened. He had no right to do this. No right at all, and it was time he learned it. The same sort of shield of Spirit that cut Joiya off from the Source would stop him, too; Aes Sedai used it on the rare men they found who could channel.

[Sharaman]

I assume you mean Rand's shileding of Asmo when they return from Seanchan and he finds the weird camouflage Asmo has given the Gate?

According to some RJ references, same-sex shielding (male-male or female-female) is much easier and more effective than cross-gender shielding. Also, some people have a talent for shielding and others don't.

 

[yoniy0]

Yes, RJ did say it's easier to shield a member of the same sex, and yes, some people are just talented that way.

The question, however, was about whether the same weave is used to shield men and women, and I remarked that benny seems to be right that at one time Rand was able to perform the former while unable to do the latter, implying a negative answer, at least when it comes to men channeling.

On the other hand, Egwene seems to believe the same weave would work for her (I can't comment on how likely it is that she's simply wrong).

[Sharaman]

Ah ok!

He does have a problem shielding women.

Several possibilities -

1) He can't remember the instinctively-woven shield he used on Egwene-Elayne in TSR

2) That shield is obviously different from the weave Asmo taught him to shield men. Asmo's remarks and Rand's problems make it very likely that it's not the same weave that AoL saidin channelers used to shield women. So yes, Aol Saidin-channelers must have used two different weaves to shield women.

 

However, Rand also maybe suffering some variation of a first-second weave problem. Quite often, (As with Gates and healing), there are several weaves to do the same thing. If a channeler has done it one way the first time, he/she may find it difficult to learn a second weave.

If saidin-channelers use a slightly different version of the same weave Rand did on Egwene-Elayne, Rand may have a second weave problem learning Asmo's method. (Just maybe, the weave Rand did there would also work at shielding men)

Nyn shielding Logain in LoC just after she's healed him, makes it likely that saidar channelers use the same weave to block both men-women, she didn't adjust her weave as such, if you read her Pov.

 

 

[bronnt]

Ah ok!

He does have a problem shielding women.

Several possibilities -

1) He can't remember the instinctively-woven shield he used on Egwene-Elayne in TSR

2) That shield is obviously different from the weave Asmo taught him to shield men. Asmo's remarks and Rand's problems make it very likely that it's not the same weave that AoL saidin channelers used to shield women. So yes, Aol Saidin-channelers must have used two different weaves to shield women.

 

However, Rand also maybe suffering some variation of a first-second weave problem. Quite often, (As with Gates and healing), there are several weaves to do the same thing. If a channeler has done it one way the first time, he/she may find it difficult to learn a second weave.

If saidin-channelers use a slightly different version of the same weave Rand did on Egwene-Elayne, Rand may have a second weave problem learning Asmo's method. (Just maybe, the weave Rand did there would also work at shielding men)

Nyn shielding Logain in LoC just after she's healed him, makes it likely that saidar channelers use the same weave to block both men-women, she didn't adjust her weave as such, if you read her Pov.

 

I agree, and I think you've nailed the issue-Rand can't find the same weave again so his second weave is less effective-but I don't know if I agree with your description of the mechanics involved.

 

It's not that there's several weaves to do the same thing, but there's different ways of weaving any given weave.  Think of it like actual weaving (which, admittedly, I know little of) in where you have several different techniques, but they can all used be used to create rugs, or quilts, or hammocks, if you know what you're doing.  Aviendha's problem isn't that she used a different weave to make a Gate the first time, but that she made the weave in a different fashion.  That's my interpretation anyway.

[benny the ball]

Thanks guys that actually makes sence (the whole differnt way to make things that do the same thing) don't think i would have figures that out my self.

 

Wonder if thires many instances that happens in the series and how it effects stuff? Theres the differnt ways people use compulsion but there has to be others that may have slipped under the radar.

 

Then again knowing this site they have been pointed out and i just havent read it ;D

[llcoolj]

I've found it interesting how Elza/Semirhage managed to get the dominition band out of Cadsuane's box. I believe Cadsuane just assumes that Semirhage had some AoL secrets for undoing the weaves. However, we know that Sorilea and Bair were with Cadsuane at one point when she got into her secret box. Bair can't channel - so doesnt that leave Sorilea as a very suspicious culprit? Could she be a darkfriend?

[chuckievi]

Thanks guys that actually makes sence (the whole differnt way to make things that do the same thing) don't think i would have figures that out my self.

 

Wonder if thires many instances that happens in the series and how it effects stuff? Theres the differnt ways people use compulsion but there has to be others that may have slipped under the radar.

 

Then again knowing this site they have been pointed out and i just havent read it ;D

 

There was a sister that commented she could tell who had taught people how to weave certain things with the power by how they did it and if they used certain hand movements. 

[JakeBarnes]

I've found it interesting how Elza/Semirhage managed to get the dominition band out of Cadsuane's box. I believe Cadsuane just assumes that Semirhage had some AoL secrets for undoing the weaves. However, we know that Sorilea and Bair were with Cadsuane at one point when she got into her secret box. Bair can't channel - so doesnt that leave Sorilea as a very suspicious culprit? Could she be a darkfriend?

 

I hope so.

[Sharaman]

I've found it interesting how Elza/Semirhage managed to get the dominition band out of Cadsuane's box. I believe Cadsuane just assumes that Semirhage had some AoL secrets for undoing the weaves. However, we know that Sorilea and Bair were with Cadsuane at one point when she got into her secret box. Bair can't channel - so doesnt that leave Sorilea as a very suspicious culprit? Could she be a darkfriend?

 

I hope so.

 

It's certainly possible but in this case, Brandon clarified (on the Q&A threads in this forum) that Shaidar Haran taught Elza the weaves she need to bypass Cadsuane's wards.

 

[Aquarius]

I've found it interesting how Elza/Semirhage managed to get the dominition band out of Cadsuane's box. I believe Cadsuane just assumes that Semirhage had some AoL secrets for undoing the weaves. However, we know that Sorilea and Bair were with Cadsuane at one point when she got into her secret box. Bair can't channel - so doesnt that leave Sorilea as a very suspicious culprit? Could she be a darkfriend?

 

I hope so.

 

It's certainly possible but in this case, Brandon clarified (on the Q&A threads in this forum) that Shaidar Haran taught Elza the weaves she need to bypass Cadsuane's wards.

 

If I remember the Brandon quote well... Shaidar Haran taught "some things" to Elza...