Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[Terez]

He was generally evasive. He did say that the confusion was intentional.

[Maleshub]

Rand knew things, thanks to the memories. The voice was Rand's delusion, so it knew what Rand knew, and no more. Lews Therin's memories came directly to Rand far more often than they came from the voice; the voice tended to express the memories that Rand wasn't comfortable with, like anything having to do with Ilyena. It also expressed other thoughts Rand wasn't comfortable with, thoughts that had nothing to do with Lews Therin at all, though Rand often interpreted it that way. His mistrust for Taim and Aes Sedai, for example. Rand interpreted those thoughts as the paranoid thoughts of a madman, and so they were expressed through the 'voice', because in Rand's mind, the Kinslayer was a madman. Nevermind that he was only a madman for a few days at most, at the end of a life lasting 400 years. Sometimes Rand would have a thought and assign it to Lews Therin after the fact. Sometimes he wasn't sure where the thought had come from. At least once, he was sure it came from neither of them. (Moridin)

 

Thanks! That's the first clear and convincing explanation of Rand/LTT I've read. The relationship and its explanation has always been foggy to me. And I am glad I read it before I got to the relevant parts in my reread (probably the last before AMoL).

[Terez]

No problem. Lews Therin is something of a specialty for me; I've studied the phenomenon more thoroughly than I've studied anything else in all of WoT.

[thisguy]

He was generally evasive. He did say that the confusion was intentional.

Thanks for that. My one question would be then, why would he have to come to terms with LTT if the voice was only part of his insanity? Other people are obviously reborn in the series and don't suffer the same way, other people go insane from touching saidan and don't suffer the same way. But, either way, you did make me think of this part of the storyline differently. Even though I know/knew Rand was LTT reborn I still thought of them as two distinct people. Anyway, good discussion.

[Terez]

He was generally evasive. He did say that the confusion was intentional.

Thanks for that. My one question would be then, why would he have to come to terms with LTT if the voice was only part of his insanity?

 

Again, the memories and the voice are not the same thing. He needs the memories; he doesn't need the voice.

 

Other people are obviously reborn in the series and don't suffer the same way...

 

Yes, but do those people have past life memories? Also, it's not exactly simple; the taint certainly facilitated Rand's particular delusions, but Rand's own motives were the root problem. He didn't want to believe he was Lews Therin, so he worked really hard to reshape his reality to fit what he wanted to believe. The taint simply helped him delude himself. When he finally came to terms with Lews Therin, he appears to have warded his own brain from the taint at the same time.

 

...other people go insane from touching saidan and don't suffer the same way.

 

The taint affects different people in different ways.

[shortkut]

But the reasons listed so far do not have it being Mat's future, but rather his past

 

Except that Min had the viewing before Mat remembered anything. And the Seanchan hold the banner.

if that is all it is then it seems more like, as another member mentioned, that jordan had not decided her visions were only the future and she saw something about him relating to his past

[shortkut]

Please delete

Edited August 1, 2012 by shortkut

[Vardar]

I wasn't lumping you in with anyone else. I was responding to you, and you alone. Your position is offensive

 

Actually you were. You said “In fact, this attitude--that a person should be able to control their mental problems, and that their failure to do so is indicative of weak will--has been directly connected to incidences of suicide.”

I did not say that. At all. You read too much into my statement and therefore reached conclusions lumping me in with a category of people you dislike. Of course that is totally up to you.

 

 

Psychologically and psychochemically, no, this is not subject to debate. It has been proven that mental illness--including things like alcohol and gambling addiction which are the most commonly cited 'they lack the will to fight their urges' mental issues--involves a neurochemical effect that changes perception itself. Their brains literally train themselves to negate inclinations to act against their illness on a chemical level, thereby nullifying willpower.

 

Furthermore its been proven that those who find ways to deal with their illness on their own invariably have shot themselves in the foot in the long run, but even so if you have managed to find a sustainable way to deal with your issues--more power to you. But the presentation that it is no more than a matter of willpower is both ignorent and offensive.

Actually it has not been proven in every case. And even then, neurochemical effects can be controlled mentally, again that’s been proven. I’d also like to state that it doesn’t work for everyone everytime.

As to the bottom paragraph that is a bold faced lie. You statement implies that every person who deal with their illness on their own have issues further down the line. There aren’t many absolutes in the medical field, I won’t say there are no absolutes in the medical field, because that would be an absolute itself. Studies have shown, in the cases studied, the a majority of those perhaps have relapsed or has issues further down the line, but if you show me a study that shows ALL people who deal with their illnesses in that way have relapsed or had issues further down the line, I’ll show you a flawed study sir.

 

And you don't see the judgement inherent in that comment? If you aren't strong, what does that make you?

 

No I don’t, because I take things at face value. Just because you aren’t as strong as someone else, that doesn’t make you weak. To assume that means you have other issues to deal with.

 

I believe you did not intend to be offensive. I believe your attitude is nonetheless deeply offensive. It is ignorent. It is arrogant. Had you stated that you had an experience with mental illness and overcame it through will power, and thought maybe others could too, that would be one thing. You didn't. Your comments have at all stages disdained those who did not achieve the same control over their issues as you believe you have, both by inference and directly.

 

That’s your right. Although, to be frank the bolded part is exactly what I stated. You took my statements the wrong way and assumed I stated something else. I’ve stated nothing else other than that bolded part. Not once have I claimed disdain for anyone who did not have the ability to achieve anything. Show it to me. That is a bold claim sir.

 

Comparison requires a detailed understanding of both sides of the comparison. You lack that--what you are doing is viewing things through the lens of your own experience, and the information you've gathered in dealing with your own experience. That is not comparison--it's judgement. An assessment of another based on your own position.

 

And that is precisely why it offends me so deeply. You presume to judge others, based not on a study of their experience, but on an understanding of your own laid over theirs.

 

Now you’re just tossing out thinly veiled insults. But again, your right.

 

Actually it doesn't, it points to person 2 having a greater pain threshold, which has numerous causes both psychological and physiological.

 

This sort of simplistic assessment of effect being simply the cause of willpower is precisely why I name your position both ignorent, presumptive and offensive.

 

Actually it does. Studies have shown that one can develop a greater threshold for pain through mental exercises. yes it’s a simplistic scenario because I didn’t feel the need to go in depth. And in fact, had you taken the time to read my entire statement, you would have noticed the word perhaps. Again, not a definite statement, my point was that the ability or lack thereof of a person to funciton in a similar situation to someone else doesn’t make that person less or weaker than anyone. I’ve stated it clearly again, you’ll probably misread it again.

 

That is not a valid foundation for the statements you have made. Basic psych would have covered what... social psych? An introduction to nuerochemistry? Ethics? Did you even touch on abnormal psychology? Everyone knows basic psych is more about training a student to think in psychological terms than it is about the information it provides. From there you have books... papers... seminars... self-study, all viewed and judged only by you, viewed through the lens of your own experience.

 

Look, I appreciate that you have explored this, but you have made bold declarative statements that are... well, to be frank, baseless, wrong and offensive.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Classes, not class. Even in classes, of course the information is viewed and studied by me, who else would view and study what I’m learning. I’m confused by your statement. Are you suggesting that since I choose the studies on my own, that I would inherently be biased and not study multiple sides of a topic? Who’s being judgmental now?

 

Ah! You're right about that. I'm just rereading for the first time in a long time. Sorry.

It's cool. I really may have missed a moment where LTT took over his body. The only thing I can think of that was close was when Rand made a comment about if he gave in now, he knew that LTT would be in control and he would be a voice in his head.

 

But other than that, all LTT taking over was channeling which technically is a mental thing only.

How about the time in FoH (chapter 3) where Rand failed to respond o his own name, but did respond to Lews Therin?

 

I have a simple Question, why does everyone hate Egwene? I understand peoples dislike of Elayne, but not Egwene?

Lol, that's not as easy a question as it seems, countless of topics have started or digressed in Egwene hate/love discussion wich all are shut down by admins for mud slinging.

Haha, Ok then. Can someone explain in brief why she is hated? and maybe a bit about why she is loved?

Egwene is hated for a variety of reasons. A common one is that she is often perceived as a Mary Sue. She becomes an expert politician in a very short space of time, when she is in the WT, an AS asks her for advice on dealing with Warders - in other words, she wins because she gets very good in a short space of time, and because everyone around her is dumbed down in order for her to win. Her opposition to Rand during their meeting is often felt to be unwarranted - some people feel that she is stupid in opposing the Dragon with no good reason, and she should listen to his explanation for why he wants to break the seals. She's accused of lacking a distinct personality, because she merely adapts her identity to whatever situation she's in - around the Aiel she's the perfect Aiel, around the AS she's the perfect AS, and so on. I'm sure if you check the many Egwene hate threads, you can find people explaining their own reasons at greater length.

 

A Valid question: I'd state that he sitll didn't take over a physical part of his body, it was mental all the same. Although that is an interestng thought.

[Vardar]

I don't get how the Seanchan holding one banner, would be in Mat's future. Is he going to take the banner back? It doesn't make much sense, although a nod for the actual theory.

[Lisa Campbell]

I think that maybe Mat could end up giving it back to Perrin as part of the alliance between the North and East, and the South and West. That's the best theory out there I've read (so far )

 

I think the trees flowering all around him could relate to the seed singing, or uber ta'verenism like Rand in Apples (ToM)

[Knivy]

Maybe it was meant to be a red hand?

[Vardar]

I think that maybe Mat could end up giving it back to Perrin as part of the alliance between the North and East, and the South and West. That's the best theory out there I've read (so far )

 

I think the trees flowering all around him could relate to the seed singing, or uber ta'verenism like Rand in Apples (ToM)

 

I really don't get the tree part, although Perrin did make the wolf dream bloom at one point right? Remember he said it still wasn't right, but it showed a level of control and power there that we haven't seen before. He affected a HUGE area with that.

 

Maybe Mat could, but I mean was that vision worthy?

[Lisa Campbell]

RAFO

[Vardar]

RAFO

 

That's Read and Find Out right? (Just making sure as I've never seen it spelled out)

 

Random question:

 

“She saw an enormous sphere made of the finest crystal. It sparkled in the light of twenty-three enormous stars, shining down on it where it sat on a dark hilltop. There were cracks in it, and it was being held together by ropes There was Rand, walking up the hillside, holding a woodman's axe. He reached the top and hefted the axe, then swung at the ropes one at a time, chopping them free. The last one parted, and the sphere began to break apart, the beautiful globe falling in pieces. Rand shook his head.”

 

What do you guys think this means? Seems like the random number thrown in has to mean something, but have we seen anything with the number 23 in the stories?

[Suttree]

RAFO

 

That's Read and Find Out right? (Just making sure as I've never seen it spelled out)

 

Random question:

 

“She saw an enormous sphere made of the finest crystal. It sparkled in the light of twenty-three enormous stars, shining down on it where it sat on a dark hilltop. There were cracks in it, and it was being held together by ropes There was Rand, walking up the hillside, holding a woodman's axe. He reached the top and hefted the axe, then swung at the ropes one at a time, chopping them free. The last one parted, and the sphere began to break apart, the beautiful globe falling in pieces. Rand shook his head.”

 

What do you guys think this means? Seems like the random number thrown in has to mean something, but have we seen anything with the number 23 in the stories?

 

Eggy interpreted it as him breaking the seals and it fills her with dread.

[Vardar]

RAFO

 

That's Read and Find Out right? (Just making sure as I've never seen it spelled out)

 

Random question:

 

“She saw an enormous sphere made of the finest crystal. It sparkled in the light of twenty-three enormous stars, shining down on it where it sat on a dark hilltop. There were cracks in it, and it was being held together by ropes There was Rand, walking up the hillside, holding a woodman's axe. He reached the top and hefted the axe, then swung at the ropes one at a time, chopping them free. The last one parted, and the sphere began to break apart, the beautiful globe falling in pieces. Rand shook his head.”

 

What do you guys think this means? Seems like the random number thrown in has to mean something, but have we seen anything with the number 23 in the stories?

 

Eggy interpreted it as him breaking the seals and it fills her with dread.

 

Then what the heck is the 23?

[Lisa Campbell]

No idea on the 23, but the dream could also be interpreted as being about Rand destroying the access key Ter'angreal to the Sa'angreal on the Sea Folk Isle (see Amayar POV in WH Ch35) when he got rid of the taint. I could be wrong because I'm not sure if that dream happened before or after, or even if the Sa'angreal was destroyed along with the access key Ter'angreal.

 

And you're correct on RAFO. There's a Luckers list for you to look up others if you want, like IIRC or ROFL.

[Vardar]

No idea on the 23, but the dream could also be interpreted as being about Rand destroying the access key Ter'angreal to the Sa'angreal on the Sea Folk Isle (see Amayar POV in WH Ch35) when he got rid of the taint. I could be wrong because I'm not sure if that dream happened before or after, or even if the Sa'angreal was destroyed along with the access key Ter'angreal.

 

And you're correct on RAFO. There's a Luckers list for you to look up others if you want, like IIRC or ROFL.

 

Common use Acronyms I know, RAFO isn't used much aside from book chats, which I rarely do.

 

I'm just curious about the number and why it was used, seems like an odd thing to reference in a Dream.

[Lisa Campbell]

I agree, it sounds significant. Perhaps a massive gender combined linkup including 23 women using another as yet undiscovered access key? It could even just be a random description of how brightly it was shining, or a particular constellation overhead.

[Clouded]

I've seen it argued that the 23 is the number of light sided groups.

 

Found it.

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/03/it-does-add-up-number-symbolism.html

[Vardar]

I agree, it sounds significant. Perhaps a massive gender combined linkup including 23 women using another as yet undiscovered access key? It could even just be a random description of how brightly it was shining, or a particular constellation overhead.

 

Well both San'angreal are broken now right? Although LTT/Rand in theory should know how to recreate them.

 

Thanks Clouded, I'll check it out

[Lisa Campbell]

As I said, can't be sure if the female version is broken or not (the access key is) as Timna's (Amayar? in KOD Ch35) POV only says she saw it glowing, nothing about 23 stars and I assume it was daytime as no mention was made about it being night.

[Vardar]

As I said, can't be sure if the female version is broken or not (the access key is) as Timna's (Amayar? in KOD Ch35) POV only says she saw it glowing, nothing about 23 stars and I assume it was daytime as no mention was made about it being night.

 

I thought a POV showed it destroyed. Hmm, now I have to fnd the quote.

[nolirion]

The crystal globe shattered of the female one shattered . That's what started the mass suicide

[Vardar]

The crystal globe shattered of the female one shattered . That's what started the mass suicide

 

Yep.

 

Another question: On the topic of grey men and darkfriends and such, what do grey men/women get from giving up their souls? What benefit do they gain? Are they immortal? Seems like becoming an assassin for the darkside at the price of your soul really blows and no one would take that deal, unless they just LOVED killing randomly. Even then, I can't imagine the shadow would have very many.