Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[csarmi]

There is a very good writing out there on why and how Graendal killed Asmlodean. I don't have the link myself, but it's really convincing.

I think this is what you're talking about:

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/main/theories.html

 

And I agree, it's very convincing.

 

Not this one at all.

[Terez]

It is indeed. I must admit I must not be that observant cause it never occured to me that she (or he) did it.

Well I don't think she killed him personally, but she's certainly held responsible.

According to Brandon, she killed him personally. If it had been Slayer, RJ would have said so - he knew Slayer was one of the main suspects.

[contempt]

Not this one at all.

I know you said you don't have the link, but could you explain basically why and how Graendal killed Asmodean, as you see it?

[csarmi]

Do we have proof that 13 women linked can always shield a man, or is it just something Aes Sedai believe? (It is just logical that they have to believe so, because that's the best they can do without a man)

[contempt]

According to Brandon, she killed him personally.

Well you would know better than me about what he said. But afaik, he only gave an accidental slip, saying of Asmo's killer, "Well Graendal...", then realizing he wasn't supposed to be answering that, backtracked & said something along the lines of "...is certainly a good candidate." Then after that we got the entry at the end of ToM, which only says she was responsible for the deaths of Aran'gar and Asmodean and for the destruction of Mesaana. That's what I was going by. I never heard of BS saying she killed him personally, but I'm sure you have since you said it.

[csarmi]

Not this one at all.

I know you said you don't have the link, but could you explain basically why and how Graendal killed Asmodean, as you see it?

 

I would if I could, but I forgot it, sorry. :(

I never really cared. Read it once, liked it, and moved on.

 

Questions:

 

1) In Winter's Heart and/or Crossroads of Twilight Elayne is thinking about the Kin and that only like a dozen are strong enough to travel. How does that make sense? Surely they can travel when linked and there are hundreds of them. It doesn't seem plausible that a) they never think about that or b) they aren't taught linking (that second is plain impossible too as some were present when using the bowl) c) Egwene never told them

 

2) Can someone explain why Elayne takes weeks to travel to Caemlyn when she could just Travel there instead (like when she returns from the meeting with the borderlanders)

 

3) They send Kin back to Seanchan controlled lands to rescue Kin and channelers. Are they taught to travel, inverting and masking their ability to channel?

 

4) Why doesn't Elayne recruit her houses' forces right at the start (with travelling), instead of waiting long enough for them to start to get bogged down in the snows and cut out, then start visiting the country for childs and old men?

 

5) Why does Elayne try to transport Naean and Elenia by foot when they could just take them out with gateways. She send a messenger via gateway, how hard would it be to keep that gateway open?

[Terez]

According to Brandon, she killed him personally.

Well you would know better than me about what he said. But afaik, he only gave an accidental slip, saying of Asmo's killer, "Well Graendal...", then realizing he wasn't supposed to be answering that, backtracked & said something along the lines of "...is certainly a good candidate."

lol. That's what he said at the AMOL panel last JordanCon, talking about a discussion he had with Matt before the beta reading.

 

We badgered him on this point, and finally got him to say in Paris that she did it herself:

 

]Towers of Midnight book tour 16 November 2010 WH Smith, Paris, France - Jonathan B. reporting

[/font]I also asked about how Asmodean was killed now that we know Graendal was responsible for his death. Brandon said that when he arrived at Harriet's and asked to see the ending and got the pile of Robert Jordan's notes including the ending, on top of that pile was a message from a fan in the form of a dialogue between a Sherlock Holmes character and a Watson character with a note from RJ saying 'this is right'. Emily asked if it was from Matt Hatch and Brandon didn't think it was. He said that he can probably send me that message so we know exactly what RJ said 'this is right' to.

 

This is apparently all of the information that is available from RJ himself about the actual method of Asmodean's murder. In Brandon's vision of the story, he imagines Graendal killed Asmodean (did the deed herself) with balefire, but apparently this is not in the notes. So its possible that it could have been done by another kind of weave and we are free to speculate on that.

Edited August 27, 2011 by Terez

[csarmi]

Why did Bashere try to kill Rand in the beginning of LoC?

[MasterAblar]

Why did Bashere try to kill Rand in the beginning of LoC?

 

He wasn't actually trying to kill him, he just wanted to prove his point about Rand not needing to practice with the sword as he already had the power. Of course he did sort of go to an extreme to prove a point.

[csarmi]

Can we be sure about that? It might have worked.

[MasterAblar]

Can we be sure about that? It might have worked.

 

Possibly but attacking the DR in front of a crowd of observers would be a pretty poor assasination attempt by Bashere as he's likely to die right after. Besides I believe Min had a viewing that Bashere's death (or Dobraine's) would complicate thing for Rand, and both might make things so bad that Rand wouldn't be able to recover. So I'd say that Bashere was really just confident that Rand would react in time.

[ironisles]

So Rhuarc's other wife Lian is still in the waste? How many Aiel did they leave behind there?

[David Selig]

Why did Bashere try to kill Rand in the beginning of LoC?

Because he's slightly crazy and likes to live on the edge. Also because Jordan thought it would make a cool scene. ;)

[mackoY-kun]

According to Brandon, she killed him personally.

Well you would know better than me about what he said. But afaik, he only gave an accidental slip, saying of Asmo's killer, "Well Graendal...", then realizing he wasn't supposed to be answering that, backtracked & said something along the lines of "...is certainly a good candidate."

lol. That's what he said at the AMOL panel last JordanCon, talking about a discussion he had with Matt before the beta reading.

 

We badgered him on this point, and finally got him to say in Paris that she did it herself:

 

]Towers of Midnight book tour 16 November 2010 WH Smith, Paris, France - Jonathan B. reporting

[/font]I also asked about how Asmodean was killed now that we know Graendal was responsible for his death. Brandon said that when he arrived at Harriet's and asked to see the ending and got the pile of Robert Jordan's notes including the ending, on top of that pile was a message from a fan in the form of a dialogue between a Sherlock Holmes character and a Watson character with a note from RJ saying 'this is right'. Emily asked if it was from Matt Hatch and Brandon didn't think it was. He said that he can probably send me that message so we know exactly what RJ said 'this is right' to.

 

This is apparently all of the information that is available from RJ himself about the actual method of Asmodean's murder. In Brandon's vision of the story, he imagines Graendal killed Asmodean (did the deed herself) with balefire, but apparently this is not in the notes. So its possible that it could have been done by another kind of weave and we are free to speculate on that.

 

Thanks Terez, that is the only theory that makes absolute sense.

[Terez]

Why did Bashere try to kill Rand in the beginning of LoC?

Foreshadowing of that moment when Rand can't use the Power to defend himself. Bashere asked him why; Dumai's Wells kinda demonstrated the point. (Not that his sword did him much good in that case. He did kill some Warders with his bare hands, though.) I have a feeling it will happen again.

[Luckers]

Bashere's point was a little more complex than just 'don't practice the sword, you have the power'. He was making a point about the degree and the dangers in Rand's practice with the sword, versus the practical relevence of that practice and danger. Fighting five ment, risking a cracked skull, for someone who can mostly defend himself with the power is needless risk.

[Terez]

Rand didn't think it was needless, though...because he's right, you never know when you're going to end up in a situation where you can't use the Power. But of course, the main reason Rand did it was to avoid Lews Therin.

[Luckers]

Again, that's my point--it was the degree that Rand was doing it that was pointless, and as a result the risk that was involved was equally pointless.

 

Bashere wasn't saying 'its needless to use the sword'--note his reaction when Rand says he'll have to learn new techniques after losing a hand, it's not Rand knowing how to fight that he was opposed to, rather he was saying 'its needless for the likes of you to try and become the best blademaster ever. Fighting five on one is stupid.'

[yoniy0]

Yeah that's what I was thinking. I've seen some people use that claim to discredit pieces from the BWB that don't fit with their opinion so I just wanted to clarify.

I also dislike this tendency. One has to balance what is said in the BWB against what is said in the books and interviews, and take into consideration the fact that it was written like a fallible history book, but nothing should be dismissed for no other reason than that it came from the BWB.

You're right, I got a little carried away there. My intention was that pieces from the BWB should be taken the same way as, say, Moiraine's notions of the past. Not like they were represented above my post.

 

Do we have proof that 13 women linked can always shield a man, or is it just something Aes Sedai believe? (It is just logical that they have to believe so, because that's the best they can do without a man)

Asmodean supposedly knew better (he trained with women), and he said 13 Morgases could match most every man, and 13 of the Tower's weakest could beat Rand without difficulty.

[Guest fbAffranchi]

hello everyone.

[edit]

found the answer, sry. (mods may delete this post)

Edited August 28, 2011 by fbAffranchi

[csarmi]

That may be so, but it only means that 13 in the tower are much stronger than any lone man which is not surprising. What abou Rand with a strong angreal, however?

[Leyrann]

Multiple times, the Forsaken has thought to themselves even thirteen of the weakest AS in a circle could defeat them. So I think that the "13 can shield everyone" is right.

[yoniy0]

What abou Rand with a strong angreal, however?

An angreal or ser'angreal would change things, of course. Assuming the man drew on them before the circle tried to shield him.

 

Rand actually pondered this very point once - drawing lightly on the Choedan Kal I believe to make himself harder to shield.

[Luckers]

Those thoughts have always been about [or offered by] Aes Sedai, who have a lower strength limit.

 

We know that a link does not include a persons full strength, but slightly below it. Let's say 95%. RJ's strength scale for women was a 21 level system, and the male top strength stands a level or two above the female, so 22 or 23. Additionally we know not all of a persons strength is contributed to link. Let's say 95% for the sake of argument.

 

So in a link of thirteen, level 1's would result in a link strength of 12.35. A man like Rand, at his top strength, would be 22 or 23. It is possible to shield someone stronger than you, but not from almost half their strength. It is thus very unlikely that a circle of 1's could shield a man of Rand's strength. That being said, a circle of 1's is unlikely--we've met only one Morgase in the progression of the series--and in almost any normal situation should thirteen female channelers gather and link, their combined strength would exceed a man of any strength.

 

So the comments have two fallback defenses--one, they all speak of Aes Sedai, who are never a 1, and two through the law of averages a circle of women will never be a circle of 1's. So yes, in pretty much any concievable situation a circle of thirteen would beat a man, no matter his strength. But yes, a man might defy a circle of thirteen, it's just very rare.

 

[don't get me started on that weird stuff about Egwene thinking Rand could break a circle of thirteen in TofM]

[Leyrann]

Luckers, what about Egwene thinking Rand could break that circle in chapter 3 of ToM?