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I've been thinking a lot about it. I'm in the middle of Aviendha's trip into the future. If it was hard for the Aiel to accept their past (many who go to Rhuidean never return) it must be nearly impossible to see their future and survive.

Is that the reason that no wise one can go through the Pillars twice? Back when they were figuring out what the Pillars were for, they sent someone in. They came back and told the story. The wise ones decided it would be a good test to become a wise one. They sent her back to find out more... she never returned. Could it be that Avi didn't actually change a thing with the Pillars? They have always shown you the past the first time, and the future the second time. It's just that Avi was the first person strong enough to cope with the second trip.

Yes, I think you're right. I re-read this scene recently and there's no line which could be interpreted as Aviendha doing something to change how the ter'angreal works. It seems to me either that no-one survived a second trip or that a decision was made not to allow a second trip.

 

That sequence was probably the most depressing part of the whole series.

 

If that were true though, why would the ter'angreal work multiple times for visions of the past and just once for the future?

Aviendha felt something "almost alive" when she probed the ter'angreal, afterwards it was dead. So either Aviendha actually DID do something or the ter'angreal was a one-shot-gun for the visions of the future. Please discuss.

 

Actually, come to think of it, it was the words of Nakomi (Verin or not) that started Avi's line of thought that put her through a second time.

Some more oil on the fire of that theory?

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Yes, I believe the columns gave a future vision on the 2nd trip.

 

Unlike the AS doorways, the body doesn't physically disappear. When AS fail, their bodies are never recovered.

 

However, in Rhiudean's case, failure means not returning from the city, not disappearing into the columns. The body stays visible, as Rand was able to see Couladin's brother between visions standing in the columns. (Although apparently corpses disappear.)

 

I think there's a fundamental difference in the way the two ter'angreal function. The AS set appears to be TAR, and people physically enter TAR. The Rhiudean set appears to be something to do with your blood ancestors. You aren't seeing false visions, you're seeing actual memories from your ancestor's eyes.

 

Therefore, the people who don't return from the 2nd trip to Rhiudean are the ones, like Couladin's brother, who killed themselves because they couldn't accept the vision of the future.

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Yes, I believe the columns gave a future vision on the 2nd trip.

 

Unlike the AS doorways, the body doesn't physically disappear. When AS fail, their bodies are never recovered.

 

However, in Rhiudean's case, failure means not returning from the city, not disappearing into the columns. The body stays visible, as Rand was able to see Couladin's brother between visions standing in the columns. (Although apparently corpses disappear.)

 

I think there's a fundamental difference in the way the two ter'angreal function. The AS set appears to be TAR, and people physically enter TAR. The Rhiudean set appears to be something to do with your blood ancestors. You aren't seeing false visions, you're seeing actual memories from your ancestor's eyes.

 

Therefore, the people who don't return from the 2nd trip to Rhiudean are the ones, like Couladin's brother, who killed themselves because they couldn't accept the vision of the future.

uhm your wrong, the people who dont return cant accept the past. as far as we know Avi is the only one who has seen the 'future'

 

 

EDIT: seen the future going through the collumns

Edited by Durinax
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Yes, I believe the columns gave a future vision on the 2nd trip.

 

Unlike the AS doorways, the body doesn't physically disappear. When AS fail, their bodies are never recovered.

 

However, in Rhiudean's case, failure means not returning from the city, not disappearing into the columns. The body stays visible, as Rand was able to see Couladin's brother between visions standing in the columns. (Although apparently corpses disappear.)

 

I think there's a fundamental difference in the way the two ter'angreal function. The AS set appears to be TAR, and people physically enter TAR. The Rhiudean set appears to be something to do with your blood ancestors. You aren't seeing false visions, you're seeing actual memories from your ancestor's eyes.

 

Therefore, the people who don't return from the 2nd trip to Rhiudean are the ones, like Couladin's brother, who killed themselves because they couldn't accept the vision of the future.

uhm your wrong, the people who dont return cant accept the past. as far as we know Avi is the only one who has seen the 'future'

 

 

EDIT: seen the future going through the collumns

 

I was talking about the 2nd time.

 

Yes, other people have gone through a 2nd time, but they never returned from Rhiudean.

 

I extrapolated what happened to Couladin's brother with Avi's experience.

Edited by Toy'varen
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Yes, I believe the columns gave a future vision on the 2nd trip.

 

Unlike the AS doorways, the body doesn't physically disappear. When AS fail, their bodies are never recovered.

 

However, in Rhiudean's case, failure means not returning from the city, not disappearing into the columns. The body stays visible, as Rand was able to see Couladin's brother between visions standing in the columns. (Although apparently corpses disappear.)

 

I think there's a fundamental difference in the way the two ter'angreal function. The AS set appears to be TAR, and people physically enter TAR. The Rhiudean set appears to be something to do with your blood ancestors. You aren't seeing false visions, you're seeing actual memories from your ancestor's eyes.

 

Therefore, the people who don't return from the 2nd trip to Rhiudean are the ones, like Couladin's brother, who killed themselves because they couldn't accept the vision of the future.

uhm your wrong, the people who dont return cant accept the past. as far as we know Avi is the only one who has seen the 'future'

 

 

EDIT: seen the future going through the collumns

 

I was talking about the 2nd time.

 

Yes, other people have gone through a 2nd time, but they never returned from Rhiudean.

 

I extrapolated what happened to Couladin's brother with Avi's experience.

who has gone through the collumns a second time other than avi?

 

the only ones allowed in Rhuidein a second time where WO's (first time going through the rings for possible futures, second time to see through their ancestors eyes (past)

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Yes, I believe the columns gave a future vision on the 2nd trip.

 

Unlike the AS doorways, the body doesn't physically disappear. When AS fail, their bodies are never recovered.

 

However, in Rhiudean's case, failure means not returning from the city, not disappearing into the columns. The body stays visible, as Rand was able to see Couladin's brother between visions standing in the columns. (Although apparently corpses disappear.)

 

I think there's a fundamental difference in the way the two ter'angreal function. The AS set appears to be TAR, and people physically enter TAR. The Rhiudean set appears to be something to do with your blood ancestors. You aren't seeing false visions, you're seeing actual memories from your ancestor's eyes.

 

Therefore, the people who don't return from the 2nd trip to Rhiudean are the ones, like Couladin's brother, who killed themselves because they couldn't accept the vision of the future.

uhm your wrong, the people who dont return cant accept the past. as far as we know Avi is the only one who has seen the 'future'

 

 

EDIT: seen the future going through the collumns

 

I was talking about the 2nd time.

 

Yes, other people have gone through a 2nd time, but they never returned from Rhiudean.

 

I extrapolated what happened to Couladin's brother with Avi's experience.

who has gone through the collumns a second time other than avi?

 

the only ones allowed in Rhuidein a second time where WO's (first time going through the rings for possible futures, second time to see through their ancestors eyes (past)

 

It's too late for me to look for the quote, but it's something like this:

 

First time to Rhiudean for (apprentice) Wise Ones = 3 circles, just like the ones for AS for accepted. Instead of "be steadfast," they have "be true" or something like that.

Second time to Rhiudean for graduated Wise Ones and first time for Clan Chiefs ("center of the city") = FIRST time through the series of columns where they see the past through their ancestor's eyes. This is where Couladin's brother died but Rand could still see his body between visions.

Third time to Rhiudean = SECOND time through columns. Only Avi has survived, and no one who has gone through the columns twice has ever returned from Rhiudean. The relevant quote, I believe is in book 4 where one of the wise ones is asked why it is forbidden to go through the columns twice. She answers that they tried, but no one ever returned, so they made the rule as a safety precaution.

 

So THIRD trip to Rhiudean is the SECOND trip through columns for Wise Ones. For Clan Chiefs, it would be Second and Second.

Edited by Toy'varen
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Really? I always thought Barthanes was killed by Thom.

Thom killed Galldrian when he learned that it was his people, not Barthanes's, that murdered Dena.

Yeah, I thought Thom killed both of them.

 

Yes, I think you're right. I re-read this scene recently and there's no line which could be interpreted as Aviendha doing something to change how the ter'angreal works. It seems to me either that no-one survived a second trip or that a decision was made not to allow a second trip.

 

That sequence was probably the most depressing part of the whole series.

 

If that were true though, why would the ter'angreal work multiple times for visions of the past and just once for the future?

Aviendha felt something "almost alive" when she probed the ter'angreal, afterwards it was dead. So either Aviendha actually DID do something or the ter'angreal was a one-shot-gun for the visions of the future. Please discuss.

 

Actually, come to think of it, it was the words of Nakomi (Verin or not) that started Avi's line of thought that put her through a second time.

Some more oil on the fire of that theory?

It doesn't work that way... I'm suggesting that for any given person they see the past during their first trip and the future during their second trip.

There really is no line suggesting Aviendha had done anything. She wasn't even holding the source.

I'd like to hear people's theories about Nakomi though, that was weird.

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1) Can you enter someone's dream without being able to use TAR?

2) Can you get hurt in someone else's dream?

 

1. No. However, trained TAR users can enter, find, and observe anyone's dreams.

 

2. Yes. Nightmares are regularly seen as very dangerous to TAR users.

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It doesn't work that way... I'm suggesting that for any given person they see the past during their first trip and the future during their second trip.

 

However, Moiraine went through the columns (maybe even the rings) but she doesn't have Aiel blood. We do know however that she got lots and lots of advice about future events somewhere, much more information than was available from her trip through the Tear finn-doorway. For example, she saw three possible outcomes when Lanfear attacked Rand at the docks: he would die, Lanfear would take him away and when he returns he would be her ally and DF, and the third option that we saw in the books. The "possible futures" idea is more closely tied with the rings than the columns. However, she also saw where she would end up and the circumstances of her rescue (again with multiple possible outcomes.)

 

Sorry to ramble, but maybe Moiraine saw the future on her first trip, not the 2nd.

Edited by Toy'varen
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Then please discuss it here :smile:

Yes I went looking for Nakomi threads after making that post :) I should have thought of it first really.

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1) Can you enter someone's dream without being able to use TAR?

2) Can you get hurt in someone else's dream?

 

1. No. However, trained TAR users can enter, find, and observe anyone's dreams.

 

2. Yes. Nightmares are regularly seen as very dangerous to TAR users.

1. Once in a while non-TAR users end up entering TAR randomly. Do they also end up in nightmares randomly? It may be possible though we've seen no proof that I can recall.

2. The WO explicitly warn that entering somebody's dreams can be dangerous - Melaine and Egwene had problems..

Edited by Sharaman
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Where was Lanfear's hiding place when she and the other Forsaken have the meeting in the prologue of TFoH?

 

No one is sure. Not the first time we saw her come and go from that background either. We see the same when she leaves Rhuidean at the end of tSR.

 

 

 

 

Is Moridin still as strong with the OP as he was as Ishamael?

I don't have the books on hand and I can't remember whether Lanfear was weakened because of the 'finns or because the available body wasn't inherently as powerful.

 

We may never know to be honest. Moridin pretty much uses the TP exclusively.

For Lanfear, there's nothing definitive. There are theories for both.

Edited by Finnssss
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Where was Lanfear's hiding place when she and the other Forsaken have the meeting in the prologue of TFoH?

 

No one is sure. Not the first time we saw her come and go from that background either. We see the same when she leaves Rhuidean at the end of tSR.

 

 

 

 

Is Moridin still as strong with the OP as he was as Ishamael?

I don't have the books on hand and I can't remember whether Lanfear was weakened because of the 'finns or because the available body wasn't inherently as powerful.

 

We may never know to be honest. Moridin pretty much uses the TP exclusively.

For Lanfear, there's nothing definitive. There are theories for both.

Lanfear is definitely weakened. Mesaana mentioned this to Demandred (WH, Ch 13) and Cyndane remarks on it herself in her only POV at the cleansing. BS also said so in interviews.

 

Moridin is impossible to estimate as you say but I would guess that he is not weakened based on the fact that, apparently, neither Aran'gar nor Osan'gar were weakened. At least nobody remarks on it including themselves in their POVs. I'm sure it would have been mentioned otherwise.

Siuan frequently bemoans her weaker power and Cyndane remarks on hers in her single POV. Yet Aran'gar who had a number of POVs never complained and neither did Osan'gar. The reason for Lanfear's weakened power is likely that she was drained by the Finns like Moiraine not that she was transmigrated.

Edited by herid
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Before Towers of Midnight was released, a number of names were revealed; quoted name portion of the post a number of pages ago in this thread. What happened to the names?

 

 

In Path of Daggers, Anaiyella comments to Rand about his "particular care for women". Her knowledge of it had to have originated from one of the Forsaken. Which Forsaken?

And did she get it directly from that Forsaken or through another Darkfriend or a series of Darkfriends?

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Lanfear is definitely weakened. Mesaana mentioned this to Demandred (WH, Ch 13) and Cyndane remarks on it herself in her only POV at the cleansing. BS also said so in interviews.

 

 

Huh? Who said she wasn't weakened? I didn't.

I said there were differing theories as to why she's weakened.

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Lanfear is definitely weakened. Mesaana mentioned this to Demandred (WH, Ch 13) and Cyndane remarks on it herself in her only POV at the cleansing. BS also said so in interviews.

 

 

Huh? Who said she wasn't weakened? I didn't.

I said there were differing theories as to why she's weakened.

sorry, my fault. I misread that sentence. I thought you were saying that there are different theories as to whether or not Lanfear was weakened.

 

In any case, as I said, I personally think that Lanfear was weakened because she was drained not because of transmigration because neither Osan'gar nor Aran'gar were apparently weakened.

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