Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[sleepinghour]

I found it surprising that none of the Sea Folk mentioned Talaan and Merilille during their meeting with Egwene in ToM. The last time we saw them, they were enraged over Talaan's disappearance and held the Tower responsible. The Sea Folk/White Tower conflict wrapped up a bit too quickly and easily.

[Goldstar]

I assume they went to the Tower, considering Talaan's drive to become a Novice.

[WhiskyJack]

Has this been answered: Why Rand was able to remember life and likes of LTT? I know it's taint related but LTT died and dragon was reborn as Rand.

[Terez]

Has this been answered: Why Rand was able to remember life and likes of LTT? I know it's taint related but LTT died and dragon was reborn as Rand.

It hasn't really been answered. Brandon said the taint had something to do with it, but that there was more going on there. The common theory is that there is a barrier in the mind blocking past life memories, and that the taint corroded it. Theoretically there is a new barrier for each life, and Rand only breached the one barrier. But of course that theory has a few small problems with it.

[WhiskyJack]

I was reading all the Hero of Horn stuff and they remember their past lives in TAR and Birgitte still has lot of memories of past life. Does this mean that barrier is rather weak for Heroes and it was eroded in case of Dragon the moment he started Channeling. Ofcourse, does this also mean that in last few minutes (or days) of his life, LTT was hearing voices too?

[Terez]

Birgitte remembers because she was ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod. Theoretically, her barriers are regenerating as time goes on. And just because the taint is capable of eroding those barriers doesn't mean that it will necessarily do so.

[Finnssss22]

Has this been answered: Why Rand was able to remember life and likes of LTT? I know it's taint related but LTT died and dragon was reborn as Rand.

It hasn't really been answered. Brandon said the taint had something to do with it, but that there was more going on there. The common theory is that there is a barrier in the mind blocking past life memories, and that the taint corroded it. Theoretically there is a new barrier for each life, and Rand only breached the one barrier. But of course that theory has a few small problems with it.

 

The only problem with that theory imo, is that it's only the first half of it.

It's not something new that someone hears anothers voice in their head, nor is it new that that voice can sometimes be that of a real person from a past life. Semy tells us as much in KoD.

The difference in Rand's case, is the addition of the taint from SL.

We already saw that taint break down these same barriers in Mat.

I think the DO's taint weakened/corroded the barriers and the SL taint finished the job.

Mix a lil ta'vereness in there and bingo, Rand Telamon.

Edited May 15, 2011 by Finnssss

[Terez]

Rand started remembering long before he got the dagger wound, and all Semirhage tells us is that there are variable causes for 'barrier degradation' or past life memory seepage.

[Finnssss22]

Rand started remembering long before he got the dagger wound, and all Semirhage tells us is that there are variable causes for 'barrier degradation' or past life memory seepage.

 

 

Like I said there, the DO's taint got the ball rolling and the SL taint finished the job.

Might not even be the taint on Saidin alone that started it either, the wound from Ishy at the end of tGH could very well have been part of the cause as well.

 

We have direct proof that both taints can break down/weaken those barriers.

 

BS already confirmed that that the taint from the DO is a part of it but not all of it.

It only makes sense then that the taint from SL is also a factor.

Edited May 15, 2011 by Finnssss

[Terez]

Rand started remembering long before he got the dagger wound, and all Semirhage tells us is that there are variable causes for 'barrier degradation' or past life memory seepage.

Like I said there, the DO's taint got the ball rolling and the SL taint finished the job.

In what way? Can you document any changes in the memory frequency after the wound? There's no doubt that the wound has made him more paranoid, but there's no indication that this increasing paranoia would cause him to remember more of his past life. As early as LOC chapter 2 Rand could recall an amazing variety of detail about all thirteen Forsaken, but he never displayed a working knowledge of the Old Tongue, though I'm sure he's fluent since DM2. In other words, there are two things going on here - Rand's encroaching insanity, and Rand's past life memories. He's not remembering his past life because he's insane. He's hearing a voice in his head because he's insane. (And in a way, because he is sane, for what sane man would remember Lews Therin's life and identify those memories as his own? RJ is a tricky bastard like that.)

 

BS already confirmed that that the taint from the DO is a part of it but not all of it.

Yes, but that doesn't mean that you can just make up whatever and say 'that's the rest of it'.

[yoniy0]

We have direct proof that both taints can break down/weaken those barriers.

No, you have indirect evidence that the SL taint can do that. Evidence rather than proof, because Mat's memories of Aemon (if that's what they were, which isn't certain as well) might've been the 'Old Blood singing', as Moiraine put it, and not memories of past lives (this interpretation gains credibility from Mat's having used the Manetherenian battle cries before he ever came near SL). Indirect, since it's also ambiguous whether it was the intricate Healing required or the taint itself that had him remembering it. Unless there's another example of that in the books?

 

Nonetheless, I certainly agree that Semirhage's comments, in the very least, establish that other mechanisms exist in Randland which result in memory seepage.

[WhiskyJack]

My point is that unlike ordinary people. heroes of Horn don't get a scrub down. Their memories of lives they have lived stays intact, though made inaccessible. We don't know what taint can or cannot do but Rand does remember his past and LTT only surfaced after Rand started channeling. Other Ahsa'man don't suffer from this probably because wheel doesn't allow them to retain any past memories. Also, heroes of horn probably have lived very few lives compared to an average soul which probably goes through this rebirth thing every 100 year or so...

 

Mat is not remembering anyone's past life.

Edited May 15, 2011 by WhiskyJack

[Finnssss22]

In what way? Can you document any changes in the memory frequency after the wound? There's no doubt that the wound has made him more paranoid, but there's no indication that this increasing paranoia would cause him to remember more of his past life. As early as LOC chapter 2 Rand could recall an amazing variety of detail about all thirteen Forsaken, but he never displayed a working knowledge of the Old Tongue, though I'm sure he's fluent since DM2. In other words, there are two things going on here - Rand's encroaching insanity, and Rand's past life memories. He's not remembering his past life because he's insane. He's hearing a voice in his head because he's insane. (And in a way, because he is sane, for what sane man would remember Lews Therin's life and identify those memories as his own? RJ is a tricky bastard like that.)

 

All I'm saying is that I don't think the taint on Saidin theory being responsible is wrong, just incomplete. I believe the taint from SL also plays a role, just like it did on Mat. The wound inflicted by Ishy could be a factor as well. Hell, his link to Moridin prolly has a role in the final result.

We can't ignore or rule out any of it at this point.

 

 

 

No, you have indirect evidence that the SL taint can do that. Evidence rather than proof, because Mat's memories of Aemon (if that's what they were, which isn't certain as well) might've been the 'Old Blood singing', as Moiraine put it, and not memories of past lives (this interpretation gains credibility from Mat's having used the Manetherenian battle cries before he ever came near SL). Indirect, since it's also ambiguous whether it was the intricate Healing required or the taint itself that had him remembering it. Unless there's another example of that in the books?

 

Nonetheless, I certainly agree that Semirhage's comments, in the very least, establish that other mechanisms exist in Randland which result in memory seepage.

 

Saying "direct proof" might of been overstating it, that's fair enough but the "Old Blood singing" seemed to be going on with Egwene as well. She recognizes the Manetheren battle cry and thinks that she knows what it means but just can't quite remember.

[Thorgan]

I think I just understood the whole 'towers of midnight' thing.

 

The Seanchan wanted to make the most terrifying prison they could so they used the symbol of the forsaken for it (the towers of midnight).

Then all the symbolism fits.

 

Am I making sense here?

[Terez]

All I'm saying is that I don't think the taint on Saidin theory being responsible is wrong, just incomplete. I believe the taint from SL also plays a role, just like it did on Mat. The wound inflicted by Ishy could be a factor as well. Hell, his link to Moridin prolly has a role in the final result.

We can't ignore or rule out any of it at this point.

No one has ruled out anything, but there is no evidence that the dagger wound affected Rand's memory seepage, and evidence against. Same with Mat's memories.

[Finnssss22]

All I'm saying is that I don't think the taint on Saidin theory being responsible is wrong, just incomplete. I believe the taint from SL also plays a role, just like it did on Mat. The wound inflicted by Ishy could be a factor as well. Hell, his link to Moridin prolly has a role in the final result.

We can't ignore or rule out any of it at this point.

No one has ruled out anything, but there is no evidence that the dagger wound affected Rand's memory seepage, and evidence against. Same with Mat's memories.

 

 

Evidence against? I don't see any evidence against it in Rand's case, only a possible lack of evidence supporting it. That's not the same thing. A lack of the +1 in 0+1 doesn't make the answer -1.

As far as Mat goes...what evidence is there against the taint from SL bringing on the Aemon memory or allowing him to fluently understand and speak the OT. Both him and Egwene showed signs of "The Old Blood Singing" but that was only the tip of the iceberg compared to what Mat was like after.

[yoniy0]

Am I making sense here?

Afraid so. The Towers of Midnight were already built in Seanchan when Lothair's armies arrived. And they weren't a symbol of the Forsaken, it's merely a literary parallel Brandon thought of. Egwene, of course, doesn't know about the Seanchan fortress. As far as the 'midnight towers' reference in the Dark prophecy goes, well, that's an allegory, and I'm not sure it has anything to do with the actual fortress.

 

what evidence is there against the taint from SL bringing on the Aemon memory or allowing him to fluently understand and speak the OT. Both him and Egwene showed signs of "The Old Blood Singing" but that was only the tip of the iceberg compared to what Mat was like after.

You answer your own question. You might not find it convincing (personally I don't agree, it was more than the 'tip of the iceberg'), but it's evidence nonetheless.

[Terez]

All I'm saying is that I don't think the taint on Saidin theory being responsible is wrong, just incomplete. I believe the taint from SL also plays a role, just like it did on Mat. The wound inflicted by Ishy could be a factor as well. Hell, his link to Moridin prolly has a role in the final result.

We can't ignore or rule out any of it at this point.

No one has ruled out anything, but there is no evidence that the dagger wound affected Rand's memory seepage, and evidence against. Same with Mat's memories.

 

 

Evidence against? I don't see any evidence against it in Rand's case, only a possible lack of evidence supporting it.

The fact that the frequency of memories did not change after the wound is evidence against. If you want to look for factors other than the taint, you should look for something that happened before TFOH. But you probably won't find anything - Brandon's comment seems to point in other directions.

[yoniy0]

If you want to look for factors other than the taint, you should look for something that happened before TFOH.

Ah, that's easy. Aviendha made him crazy. Redheads can have that effect.

[Graveyardhag]

RE: The taint, and Shadar Logoth taint.

 

From memory - The Taint from Shadar Logoth removed Mat's memory's - it didn't give him any more, or access to previous incartations memories. He was already able to speak the old tongue - he does this for the first time before reaching SL.

We see him speaking Old Tongue after that - his Healing and, the Stone's dooryway. He doesn't know he is doing it though - Maybe it made the OT a little more accessable to him? Then again this could be caused by any number of other factors, the most obvious being ta'veren.

He wasn't able to fully understand it until after the Rhuidean trip and going through the doorway and gaining his memories.

 

 

Rand isn't spouting the Old Tongue every time he turns around - He has a crazy voice in his head and memories that aren't his. He hasn't forgotten his own like Mat has.

The taint on saidin causes maddness - we know this. Crazy voices are a form of maddness. the memories are an effect from the fact that Lews Therin was a real person - and is the same soul as Rand. (where you go from here depends on where you stand on the construct/real debate)

 

I'm just not seeing how the SL taint has affected Rand regarding memories/breaking of barriers. The 2 taints seem to be fighting each other in Rand, not working together.

[Finnssss22]

 

He wasn't able to fully understand it until after the Rhuidean trip and going through the doorway and gaining his memories.

 

Uttering a phrase or two and almost understanding the OT like he was doing before he laid hands on the Dagger is a far cry from being able to speak and understand the OT fluently like he does before he ever sets foot in Rhuidean.

When he goes through the Doorway in Tear, he is speaking the OT fluently, even if he doesn't actually realise it until he comes out and talks to Rand and Mo.

And his memory of being Aemon is explained how, coincidence that it happens directly upon waking from his cleansing?

Edited May 16, 2011 by Finnssss

[Graveyardhag]

He wasn't able to fully understand it until after the Rhuidean trip and going through the doorway and gaining his memories.

 

Uttering a phrase or two and almost understanding the OT like he was doing before he laid hands on the Dagger is a far cry from being able to speak and understand the OT fluently like he does before he ever sets foot in Rhuidean.

When he goes through the Doorway in Tear, he is speaking the OT fluently, even if he doesn't actually realise it until he comes out and talks to Rand and Mo.

And his memory of being Aemon is explained how, coincidence that it happens directly upon waking from his cleansing?

 

 

I did say fully understand it. At this point, when he thinks about what he says it's just gibberish to him. I'd go as far to say that if he tried to speak the OT at that point he wouldn't be able to. It's an unconscious thing.

And you didn't quote the bit where I said that maybe the SL taint had made the OT a little more accessable to him.

 

As for that memory - he's hallucinating, stressed, etc etc etc. Not coincidence. A combination of several different factors resulting in that memory surfacing, at that time.

 

 

I can see your point, mind. But if it is the reason for Mat's (one) memory and language skills, then it's pretty weak at it. And I can't see it reconciling with the fact that it ate Mat's own memories. You would think it would do the same thing to Rand - and it hasn't.

[yoniy0]

Okay, it's been fun while it lasted, but let's not monopolize this thread.

[DigitalSoul]

Who was the woman that Aviendah met in the waste on her way to Rhuidean?

[WhiskyJack]

Nakomi.