Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[herid]

I think Moridin and Lanfear and Moghedien might be able to do this to some extent - maybe - but I don't think the Wise Ones can - that's more similar to following the trail like Perrin does.

sorry, do you mean that the Wise Ones use something like Perrin's smelling trick and the Forsaken use something else, like what Birgitte has described? That's sounds a bit too complicated to me. Also, could Amys track Egwene in Tanchico using need? that's how Egwene found her in the Waste after all.

You can only track people using Need if you really Need to find them, probably. We've never seen anyone do it, but it should theoretically be quite possible if the need is strong enough.

yes, but Egwene found Amys in the Waste by only idly thinking about finding some Wise Ones. I guess one could argue that she really Needed Wise Ones to teach her even if she didn't realize the degree of her Need herself.

 

Birgitte's ability doesn't require that she be in the presence of a person when they disappear to find them, so it seems to be a different ability altogether, or perhaps Birgitte's ability was just a perfected version of the method used by Perrin. Hopper is much better at finding Perrin than Perrin is at finding Hopper - in fact, Perrin wonders how Hopper can find him near the end of TOM (without a trail to follow).

ah, that's a good point about Birgitte. but do you have a quote about Birgitte talking about this? You said she mentioned something about her ability somewhere.

[Terez]

I think Moridin and Lanfear and Moghedien might be able to do this to some extent - maybe - but I don't think the Wise Ones can - that's more similar to following the trail like Perrin does.

sorry, do you mean that the Wise Ones use something like Perrin's smelling trick and the Forsaken use something else, like what Birgitte has described? That's sounds a bit too complicated to me. Also, could Amys track Egwene in Tanchico using need? that's how Egwene found her in the Waste after all.

You can only track people using Need if you really Need to find them, probably. We've never seen anyone do it, but it should theoretically be quite possible if the need is strong enough.

yes, but Egwene found Amys in the Waste by only idly thinking about finding some Wise Ones.

That's not Need so much as a matter of unconscious thought, I think - like the changing clothes.

 

but do you have a quote about Birgitte talking about this? You said she mentioned something about her ability somewhere.

Here you go:

 

"Try to find out, Birgitte; as much as you can safely, at any rate. Do not take any risks." The other woman's face did not change, but Nynaeve thought she was amused; the fool woman thought as little of danger as did Lan. She wished she could ask about the White Tower, about what Siuan might be scheming, but Birgitte could neither see nor touch the waking world unless she was called there by the Horn. You are just trying to avoid what you really want to ask! "Have you seen Moghedien?"

 

"No," Birgitte sighed, "but not for lack of trying. In the usual course I can find anyone who knows they are in the World of Dreams; there is a feel, like ripples spreading through the air from them. Or perhaps from their awareness; I do not know, really. I am a soldier, not a scholar. Either she has not come into Tel'aran'rhiod since you defeated her, or..." She hesitated, and Nynaeve wanted to stop her from saying what she knew would come next, but Birgitte was too strong to dodge unpalatable possibilities. "Or else she knows I have been looking for her. She can hide, that one. She is not called the Spider for nothing." That was what a moghedien had been, in the Age of Legends; a tiny spider that spun its webs in secret places, its bite poisonous enough to kill in heartbeats.

If the Forsaken don't bother to hide most of the time, then it seems unlikely the Wise Ones can do this.

[Samhain]

In the WOT encyclopedia, they keep referring to the Fade that smiles in EotW and TGH as an early version of Shaidar Haran.

 

Fain kills this Fade by nailing it to a door in TGH. Is this the reason why the DO wants him dead? Because he killed the DO's Hand?

 

Also, since Ingtar was involved in the freeing of Fain, why does Hurin not smell violence on him? Or does he just assume that the violence is from fighting Trollocs that evening?

[Terez]

In the WOT encyclopedia, they keep referring to the Fade that smiles in EotW and TGH as an early version of Shaidar Haran.

 

Fain kills this Fade by nailing it to a door in TGH.

Different Fade. The one that smiled was the one Rand saw in Baerlon, not the one Fain killed (which we never actually saw before its death so far as I can remember.)

 

Also, since Ingtar was involved in the freeing of Fain, why does Hurin not smell violence on him?

Possibly because Ingtar has not really been more violent than anyone else (i.e. fighting the Shadowspawn inside Fal Dara keep). Just because he is a Darkfriend doesn't mean he is murdering people on a regular basis. The nobility are probably used more for their power than for their ruthlessness. In fact, since Ingtar knew of sniffers, he'd likely have taken care to avoid leaving such trails.

Edited April 4, 2011 by Terez

[Samhain]

In the WOT encyclopedia, they keep referring to the Fade that smiles in EotW and TGH as an early version of Shaidar Haran.

 

Fain kills this Fade by nailing it to a door in TGH.

Different Fade. The one that smiled was the one Rand saw in Baerlon, not the one Fain killed (which we never actually saw before its death so far as I can remember.)

Rand encountered the Fade that Fain killed in Fal Dara keep, and it smiled at him. Rand was preparing to fight him, just after witnessing the tail end of a 7 on 1 battle where the Fade dispatched them all, when Ingtar interrupted him and told him to run. I can only assume that the smiling Fade here, is the same from Baerlon, and would then be the same Fade that Fain kills.

 

Also, since Ingtar was involved in the freeing of Fain, why does Hurin not smell violence on him?

Possibly because Ingtar has not really been more violent than anyone else (i.e. fighting the Shadowspawn inside Fal Dara keep). Just because he is a Darkfriend doesn't mean he is murdering people on a regular basis. The nobility are probably used more for their power than for their ruthlessness. In fact, since Ingtar knew of sniffers, he'd likely have taken care to avoid leaving such trails.

 

Good point about knowing about the sniffers.

[Terez]

In the WOT encyclopedia, they keep referring to the Fade that smiles in EotW and TGH as an early version of Shaidar Haran.

 

Fain kills this Fade by nailing it to a door in TGH.

Different Fade. The one that smiled was the one Rand saw in Baerlon, not the one Fain killed (which we never actually saw before its death so far as I can remember.)

Rand encountered the Fade that Fain killed in Fal Dara keep, and it smiled at him. Rand was preparing to fight him, just after witnessing the tail end of a 7 on 1 battle where the Fade dispatched them all, when Ingtar interrupted him and told him to run. I can only assume that the smiling Fade here, is the same from Baerlon, and would then be the same Fade that Fain kills.

I think that's a bit of a leap, considering that there were several Fades involved in the attack on the keep.

[Grig]

Also need to keep in mind that proto-SH was around to screw with Carridin in tDR, so it really couldn't be the one that Fain nailed to the door. As Terez mentions, there were multiple fades in Fal Dara. Also, Fain described the Fade that he killed as "raging and demanding". The characterization doesn't fit too well, as SH is always smug and self-assured.

[Finnssss22]

Like when they are all camping together. I used to chalk this up to Moiriane saying that she can extend "her protection" when they're close to her but some recent arguments and theories seem to discount this being possible.

The rats for example were killed all over the Inn.

 

 

Did Moiraine ever claim that she could shield dreams of those near her? I can't recall that. I would consider it unlikely too given what happens later in the books. Even if she said that she might just be wrong. She didn't know much about TAR and Dreams.

 

Also, I'm confused about the rats in the Inn. What is the issue there? I though Ishy just killed them in TAR and that was that.

 

Moiraine does say she can help with their dreams, as long as they are close to her. In EotW chpt 42 she first mentions that she can at least help and later in chpt 48 all the boys sleep close to Moiraine to shield their dreams.

I'm not sure if Moiraine actually believes she can shield their dreams with proximity or it was just a ploy to keep them close to her.

 

As for the rats in the Inn (and it was the Stag and Lion in Baerlon not Caemlyn), Rand wakes after the dream and goes down to the kitchen to get something to eat and Master Fitch is complaining to Sara, the cook, about her cat, leaving rats with broken backs all over the Inn.

 

 

Wait, so do you mean Rand was in fact still in the Dream when he saw the burn marks, or that the TP somehow facilitated Ishamael's affecting the waking world from it?

To me the simplest answer is early-book-ism.

 

I always wondered about some of these occurrences (rats with broken backs in Baerlon among others) myself until Aran'gar mentions that he/she has to be in close proximity to find Egwene's dreams.

I don't think Ishamael is a Dreamer (I think he has a strong talent in Foretelling though but that's another story as it were ) and needed to also be close to Rand, Mat and Perrin to enter their dreams.

Why not a dreamer or at least a dreamwalker? BS hinted that some male character might have been one and Ishy is a good candidate. It's pretty clear that some Forsaken at least are dreamwalkers. Moggy and Lanfear are almost certainly, Lanfear speaks of breaking into Rand's dream past his wards. I seriously doubt any but a dreamwalker would ever be capable of that.

 

BTW, it's certainly would be strange if all Forsaken were dreamwalkers. Yet they all can enter TAR. How are they doing it if they are not dreamwalkers? I guess they could be entering Tar in flesh via gateways but we have several examples to the contrary (Moggy in Salidar and Mesaana in the Tower in ToM). I took this to mean that entering TAR can actually be taught (Demandred mentions teaching dream ter'angreal once). Avi mentioned that she was able to enter TAR with the help of a Wise One. I suspect this was different from a Wise One pulling Avi into TAR as they don't approve of such practice. Perhaps even finding dreams of others can be taught to an extent (which is how Aran'gar does it with Egwene) even though Egwene doesn't think it's possible. Perhaps some Forsaken are just better at this than others. Aran'gar might not be very good but it seems that Ishy is quite good (or he is even a dreamwalker) and doesn't need to be physically close to people to find their dreams.

 

anyway, this is getting far afield. perhaps a separate thread is in order.

 

 

BS never said specifically there was a male Dreamer, what he said was that there was a male that could tell the future.

Add in Moridin's book of Dark Prophecies....hmmmmm.

[herid]

I think Moridin and Lanfear and Moghedien might be able to do this to some extent - maybe - but I don't think the Wise Ones can - that's more similar to following the trail like Perrin does.

sorry, do you mean that the Wise Ones use something like Perrin's smelling trick and the Forsaken use something else, like what Birgitte has described? That's sounds a bit too complicated to me. Also, could Amys track Egwene in Tanchico using need? that's how Egwene found her in the Waste after all.

You can only track people using Need if you really Need to find them, probably. We've never seen anyone do it, but it should theoretically be quite possible if the need is strong enough.

yes, but Egwene found Amys in the Waste by only idly thinking about finding some Wise Ones.

That's not Need so much as a matter of unconscious thought, I think - like the changing clothes.

hmm, you may be right. but wouldn't this make it possible for anybody to easily find anybody else?

 

but do you have a quote about Birgitte talking about this? You said she mentioned something about her ability somewhere.

Here you go:

 

"Try to find out, Birgitte; as much as you can safely, at any rate. Do not take any risks." The other woman's face did not change, but Nynaeve thought she was amused; the fool woman thought as little of danger as did Lan. She wished she could ask about the White Tower, about what Siuan might be scheming, but Birgitte could neither see nor touch the waking world unless she was called there by the Horn. You are just trying to avoid what you really want to ask! "Have you seen Moghedien?"

 

"No," Birgitte sighed, "but not for lack of trying. In the usual course I can find anyone who knows they are in the World of Dreams; there is a feel, like ripples spreading through the air from them. Or perhaps from their awareness; I do not know, really. I am a soldier, not a scholar. Either she has not come into Tel'aran'rhiod since you defeated her, or..." She hesitated, and Nynaeve wanted to stop her from saying what she knew would come next, but Birgitte was too strong to dodge unpalatable possibilities. "Or else she knows I have been looking for her. She can hide, that one. She is not called the Spider for nothing." That was what a moghedien had been, in the Age of Legends; a tiny spider that spun its webs in secret places, its bite poisonous enough to kill in heartbeats.

If the Forsaken don't bother to hide most of the time, then it seems unlikely the Wise Ones can do this.

 

thanks for the quote. yes, it's an interesting one. it's not clear if the Wise Ones can do this or not - they certainly never mentioned that onscreen. I also find it interesting that Slayer, who is a pro in TAR, apparently can't do it either. He was certainly greatly surprised when Perrin was able to follow him.

Like when they are all camping together. I used to chalk this up to Moiriane saying that she can extend "her protection" when they're close to her but some recent arguments and theories seem to discount this being possible.

The rats for example were killed all over the Inn.

 

 

Did Moiraine ever claim that she could shield dreams of those near her? I can't recall that. I would consider it unlikely too given what happens later in the books. Even if she said that she might just be wrong. She didn't know much about TAR and Dreams.

 

Also, I'm confused about the rats in the Inn. What is the issue there? I though Ishy just killed them in TAR and that was that.

 

Moiraine does say she can help with their dreams, as long as they are close to her. In EotW chpt 42 she first mentions that she can at least help and later in chpt 48 all the boys sleep close to Moiraine to shield their dreams.

I'm not sure if Moiraine actually believes she can shield their dreams with proximity or it was just a ploy to keep them close to her.

I suspect Moiraine was simply wrong about being able to protect their dreams. She definitely does nothing of the kind for Rand in TSR even when she knows that Rand's dreams might be in danger. When Seana is killed in the attack at Cold Rocks (TSR, Ch 50) while guarding Rand's dreams, Moiraine is not anywhere around.

 

As for the rats in the Inn (and it was the Stag and Lion in Baerlon not Caemlyn), Rand wakes after the dream and goes down to the kitchen to get something to eat and Master Fitch is complaining to Sara, the cook, about her cat, leaving rats with broken backs all over the Inn.

 

 

I might be dense but I still don't see what the issue there is. The rats are not domesticated so when they sleep they end up in TAR. Ishy could kill any number of them anywhere in TAR including all over that Inn. He could even take some of the rats along when he broke into Rand's dream (if that's what he did) and kill them there.

 

 

BS never said specifically there was a male Dreamer, what he said was that there was a male that could tell the future.

Add in Moridin's book of Dark Prophecies....hmmmmm.

 

I was mostly talking about being a dremwalker, not a dreamer. Ishy is a good candidate for that one. He is very good in TAR and seems to be able to either break into other people dreams or pull them into TAR. either one makes him a dreamwalker I would think.

as for him being a Dreamer, there was a long discussion about it a while back. i didn't really follow it so I can't say much. he does seem to be pretty well informed about the future. it could be his secret book of prophecies, or he might be able to foretell as you suggest. or he may be a Dreamer. i do find it interesting that he apparently knew that Egwene and Nynaeve were important to Rand's future when he ordred them kidnapped (I think it was him) and taken to Seanchan in TGH. He taunts Rand about it

“They will not save you,” Ba’alzamon said. “Those who might save you will be carried far across the Aryth Ocean. If ever you see them again, they will be collared slaves, and they will destroy you for their new masters.”

-TGH, Ch 47

what exactly does he know about Egwene and Nynaeve possibly saving Rand (and how does he know it)? I've seen a number of theories about Nynaeve's future role in saving Rand but nothing about Egwene's so far as I can recall.

Edited April 4, 2011 by herid

[Finnssss22]

 

I might be dense but I still don't see what the issue there is. The rats are not domesticated so when they sleep they end up in TAR. Ishy could kill any number of them anywhere in TAR including all over that Inn. He could even take some of the rats along when he broke into Rand's dream (if that's what he did) and kill them there.

 

I was using the rats to show the possibility that Ishy was actually in the Inn, pursuant to the theory that he needed proximity to Rand to get into his dreams.

 

I dunno what really explains a lot of stuff that happens in the early books. Though I have mused over the possibility that using the True power in TAR will effect the real world to some degree. Terez mentioned something along those lines a few posts back.

Hopefully we can RAFO or get some better explanations from BS and crew after MoL.

Edited April 4, 2011 by Finnssss

[Sharaman]

When people get killed in TAR, I don't think the violence shows on their physical bodies; they just seem to have died in their sleep.

The rats had physically broken backs.

OTOH, Perrin comes out of TAR with wounds though he's not there in the flesh. So I guess it's possible.

[yoniy0]

yes, but Egwene found Amys in the Waste by only idly thinking about finding some Wise Ones.

That's not Need so much as a matter of unconscious thought, I think - like the changing clothes.

hmm, you may be right. but wouldn't this make it possible for anybody to easily find anybody else?

Not if Egwene simply shifted to the Waste and happened to land where Amys was playing with her spears. That would simply make it a fortunate coincidence, which happens a lot when the superboys/girls are concerned.

[herid]

yes, but Egwene found Amys in the Waste by only idly thinking about finding some Wise Ones.

That's not Need so much as a matter of unconscious thought, I think - like the changing clothes.

hmm, you may be right. but wouldn't this make it possible for anybody to easily find anybody else?

Not if Egwene simply shifted to the Waste and happened to land where Amys was playing with her spears. That would simply make it a fortunate coincidence, which happens a lot when the superboys/girls are concerned.

Egwene did it twice and landed in front of Amys both times. That was not a coincidence.

[yoniy0]

Egwene did it twice and landed in front of Amys both times. That was not a coincidence.

It occurs to me that she might've simply returned to the same place the second time, but I see your point. Well, perhaps it was need after all.

[Durinax]

do we have any idea why the shadow stopped trying to send egwene and co far away from rand? or is just failing once enough to completely make hte shadow give up

[csarmi]

I don't know if it's a simple question, but maybe someone can answer it.

 

Can someone point me to a good source, or tell me what happens in the end of the Eye of the World (from the point of meeting the forsaken till the travel back), and why that happens? It may be just me, but even after like 5 rereads I still don't understand, it's all too confusing.

 

These chapters: Against the Shadows, There is Neither Beginning or End

Edited April 6, 2011 by csarmi

[Sid]

A number of questions about that are met with a RAFO, but the Encyclopaedia has a decent summary of what's going on.

 

Against the Shadow

[herid]

do we have any idea why the shadow stopped trying to send egwene and co far away from rand? or is just failing once enough to completely make hte shadow give up

I don't think we know the answer to this. Nor do we know why Ishy was trying to get them away from Rand in the first place. He seemed to know something about their future importance to Rand but how did he know it? His big book of secret prophecies? those don't usually mention people by names and are pretty hard to interpret. The only prophecy that I can recall that mentioned any specific names was the secret borderlander prophecy.

It might also be that Ishy is/was a Dreamer himself or that he could foretell. There has been lots of speculation about this on the forum.

[Duskfire]

Ishy also seemed to know about the Seanchan being a future threat. While alot of that may have been manipulated by him, its hard to see him being able to assure it happened in just the manner it did with him being in and out of the bore.

[Pilz]

New Question after a quick first time reading: At the beginning of ToM, how did Rand know Egwene was Amyrlin? Also how did he recognize Siuan? No one else could recognize her (post-stilling).

[herid]

New Question after a quick first time reading: At the beginning of ToM, how did Rand know Egwene was Amyrlin?

good question. I don't think that's ever made clear. Perhaps he didn't really know. He knew that Egwene was besieging Tar Valon. I don't think he knew that she was captured, did he? He may have simply assumed that she would be outside Tar Valon and he could talk to her there. Once he arrvied into the city he would have quickly found out what happened.

Also how did he recognize Siuan? No one else could recognize her (post-stilling).

The same way he recognized Lanfear at the end of ToM. The new Rand can see souls so once he looked into Siuan's eyes he recognized her soul.

[Terez]

"I'm not hiding exactly," he said. "At least, just until I kill some men who need killing." Light, he was as matter of fact about it as Alivia! Why did he and Lan keep eyeing one another and pretending they were not? "Anyway, how could Egwene help?" he went on, setting the scrip on the table. It made a soft but solid sound of weight inside. "I suppose she's Aes Sedai, too?" He sounded amused! "Is she here, as well? You three, and two real Aes Sedai. Only two! No. I don't have time for that. I need you to keep something until—"

 

"Egwene is the Amyrlin Seat, you fool woolhead," she growled.

[Pilz]

Thanks for the answers. I thought she was just rebel Amyrlin at that point.

[Terez]

She was. My brain doesn't work in the morning.

[herid]

"I'm not hiding exactly," he said. "At least, just until I kill some men who need killing." Light, he was as matter of fact about it as Alivia! Why did he and Lan keep eyeing one another and pretending they were not? "Anyway, how could Egwene help?" he went on, setting the scrip on the table. It made a soft but solid sound of weight inside. "I suppose she's Aes Sedai, too?" He sounded amused! "Is she here, as well? You three, and two real Aes Sedai. Only two! No. I don't have time for that. I need you to keep something until—"

 

"Egwene is the Amyrlin Seat, you fool woolhead," she growled.

we also have a later reference that he knew that Egwene was besieging Tar Valon. in KoD he sent Merise to Egwene to offer to bond Asha'man. But it doesn't look like he knew that she was captured. At least I can't recall any references to that.