Semirhage (Spoilers)

[Luckers]

With the locking of the Forsaken thread I figured Semi should come out to play by herself. Have fun.

[clu7ch]

She got spanked.

[1eejit]

I was disappointed at how easily she was shaken by simple humiliation. Though tickled by the similarity with how Perrin broke those Shaido prisoners.

[grolm]

Unless somehow Demandred does more than show up for 10 minute cameos, Semi is the most badass of all the Forsaken. Ch 22 was the most intense of the entire series, even if the crossover from RJ to BS let mistakes enter in how the results of Balefire remove actions because of the thread being burned from the pattern before the death.

 

She came to a bad ending

[mossman87]

Unless somehow Demandred does more than show up for 10 minute cameos, Semi is the most badass of all the Forsaken. Ch 22 was the most intense of the entire series, even if the crossover from RJ to BS let mistakes enter in how the results of Balefire remove actions because of the thread being burned from the pattern before the death.

 

She came to a bad ending

 

Not even mentioning the chaos in Seanchan she caused, girl was badass.

[clu7ch]

Unless somehow Demandred does more than show up for 10 minute cameos, Semi is the most badass of all the Forsaken. Ch 22 was the most intense of the entire series, even if the crossover from RJ to BS let mistakes enter in how the results of Balefire remove actions because of the thread being burned from the pattern before the death.

 

She came to a bad ending

 

Im confused a bit, what mistakes do you imply?

[analyticalkeys]

Unless somehow Demandred does more than show up for 10 minute cameos, Semi is the most badass of all the Forsaken. Ch 22 was the most intense of the entire series, even if the crossover from RJ to BS let mistakes enter in how the results of Balefire remove actions because of the thread being burned from the pattern before the death.

 

She came to a bad ending

 

Im confused a bit, what mistakes do you imply?

 

He's most likely refering to the marks on Min's neck, since a bunch of people are complaining about this.. which aren't a mistake, because Rand caused them, and not Semirhage.

[Random Man]

Unless somehow Demandred does more than show up for 10 minute cameos, Semi is the most badass of all the Forsaken. Ch 22 was the most intense of the entire series, even if the crossover from RJ to BS let mistakes enter in how the results of Balefire remove actions because of the thread being burned from the pattern before the death.

 

She came to a bad ending

 

Im confused a bit, what mistakes do you imply?

 

He's most likely refering to the marks on Min's neck, since a bunch of people are complaining about this.. which aren't a mistake, because Rand caused them, and not Semirhage.

 

Yeah, I'm still surprised this is coming up as a supposed "mistake."

 

Think of it like this:

 

1. Ban holds a knife to the warder Corin's throat, cutting it just a bit, telling him he needs to drop a boulder on his cow's head.

2. Corin drops the boulder on his cow's head, killing the cow.

3. Ban removes the dagger.

4. Corin's Aes Sedai balefires Ban.

5. The nick in Corin's throat is no longer there, but the cow is still dead. Corin still remembers getting cut by Ban's dagger.

 

Corin's actions are not nullified by the balefiring of Ban simply because Ban made Corin kill his cow. Only Ban's actions are changed. This is how we get around the Balefire paradox that Rand was wondering about back in TFoH -- the memories remain, so Corin still remembers being forced to kill his cow even though Ban was technically not alive when he forced Corin to kill his cow.

 

[grolm]

Not the neck marks.

[Whittaker_Ramsey]

Not the neck marks.

 

Care to elaborate?

[elmis]

I think the problem they have with it is that it was Semirhage who through Rand caused the bruises.

 

Scenario one:

1. Rand gets the collar on his head by Semirhage.

2. Rand gets told by Semirhage to choke Min ("Choke Min, or I'll kill her!").

3. Rand chokes Min.

4. Rand balefires Semirhage.

5. The bruises are still there.

 

Scenario two:

1. Rand gets the collar on his head by Semirhage.

2. Rand is used as a puppet by Semirhage (she is using her will to manipulate Rands muscles through the male a'dam).

3. As a puppet, Rand chokes Min.

4. Rand balefires Semirhage.

5. Should the bruises then be gone? That is very much up to discussion.

 

It's up to interpretation, she is not cohercing Rand to preform the actions, she is using his body like a sock puppet.

 

In the other scenario, the Warder makes a choice to kill his cow, even though it is under duress - he still remembers the knife as it were real and had happened. That is why his actions aren't changed backwards in time - even though the knife wasn't ever to his throat, he remembers it as so, and thus acted the way he did.

 

In the Semirhage incident, Rand did not choose to preform the actions. Semirhage preformed them through his body (he was little more than a remote controlled robot at the time) - that is how the text is written - and why we have this debate.

 

Sure Rand would remember being used to choke Min, but the actions of actually choking Min could be taken as Semirhages action.

 

[clu7ch]

But in the end, it was Rand's own hands, not semi's, not a weave of hers either, therefor the bruises are still there. I agree with the warder example fully. But what did the cow do to deserve such an end?

[Bob T Dwarf]

If Semirhage had used a garrote to choke Min and then been balefired, the bruises would have disappeared.

 

In the scenario as Sanderson wrote it, Rand = garrote.  Semirhage was the actor, Rand was merely the instrument through which she acted.

 

The only way the pieces of the Domination Band and Min's bruises could remain is if Semirhage was only balefired back a few seconds.

[Paendragon]

Go over to a balefire thread....

 

I liked that pride was Semi's weak spot, and that Cadsuane was not the one to figure it out. The first wiseone they brought in cracked her with one sentence. Hopefully Rand will learn to cry after he splits Cadsuane down the middle with his mystery sword... Hate that woman...

 

I wonder how Semi learned so much about the aiel while being on the other side of the world, the wetlanders don't really understand them that well, and the seanchan (if my timing is correct) had left before the Aiel culture really formed. The forsaken are REALLY good at info gathering...

 

She came to a bad end though, just a tool for the dark one, used for its purpose and discarded...

[Jemlin]

It did suck, imo, that Semi got free before she was put to the question after the humiliation tactic.  I was cheering because I thought, "FINALLY, they will get some info out of the witch!" and then, BAHM...plot changes =[ 

 

 

[1eejit]

If Semirhage had used a garrote to choke Min and then been balefired, the bruises would have disappeared.

 

In the scenario as Sanderson wrote it, Rand = garrote.  Semirhage was the actor, Rand was merely the instrument through which she acted.

A garotte isn't a living thread in the pattern, a person is. A person given an order to kill isn't treated the same as swinging the sword yourself when it comes to balefire.

I liked that pride was Semi's weak spot, and that Cadsuane was not the one to figure it out. The first wiseone they brought in cracked her with one sentence.

 

I wonder how Semi learned so much about the aiel while being on the other side of the world, the wetlanders don't really understand them that well, and the seanchan (if my timing is correct) had left before the Aiel culture really formed. The forsaken are REALLY good at info gathering...

 

As I pointed out, the way Perrin broke his Shaido captives had a lot in common with how Semi was beaten. It's no surprise the WO would have the insight to breaking her that they did - most AS would similarly fail to break a WO captive.

 

Forsaken are good at info gathering due to a network of Darkfriends and judicious use of T'A'R I'd imagine. It's a powerful tool for those with Age of Legends knowledge.

[Sharaman]

Ok she got balefired in the end.

A reconstruction of events immediately before that.

According to BS, Shaidar Haran picked up Elza, taught her some unusual weaves and got her to open the box.

Either Elza or Superfade, ko-ed the channellers guarding Semi, (not killing the two with warders)

Then Superfade freed Semi, and skedaddled.

Elza was instructed to tell Semi to remove the compulsion  placed by Verin in PoD and gave her the Domination Band

Perhaps GLoD double crossed Semi and let RaT have access to TP. Or somehow through the link with Moridin, Rand managed to channel TP and took care of both the Chosen S&M Queen and of Elza.

So now, Questions:

Where was the Choedan Kal - did Elza have it around and RaT picked it up after balefiring them? There's no mention of it.

Did Elza just ignore it because she knows what it is, and it's likely SH would too?

The TP thing seems to be a RAFO, so we won't have answers to speculation. Nevertheless, LTT knew or deduced what it was and RaT released it, it wasn't taken away from him. So he may well be able to tap it again or shield it.

Does GLoD even know about this unauthorised access (if it was unauthorised) or Moridin for that matter?

Why did GLoD send Superfade after Moridin forbade a rescue attempt?

Does this rescue attempt mean a crack in the relationship between Moridin and GLoD?

Do the surviving  Chosen know Semi is gone?

They should, given that there is one more black sister with Rand.

But maybe not since the lines of communication are not clear.

Who does she report to?

Etc. etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Aust]

Hello! First post, so go gentle :D

 

I think Semirhage may have been used as a pawn to manipulate Rand into tapping into the True Power. Moridin had made it clear he was not happy with her and would punish her for her mistakes, and the Dark One and Moridin would both rather have Rand go over to their side than have him dead. So they set up a circumstance that would push the limits of his desperation - that Semirhage would taunt Rand with Min was kind of predictable - knowing in his desperation he'd strain for a solution and do just about anything to save Min. Also, they did leave him that access key - it was mentioned by Rand that it was left and he retrieved it (to the poster above, I can't remember the exact reference but do recall reading that) - which means that Shaidar Haran's intentions were more about setting a chain of events in motion than in thwarting Rand.

 

It really had the 'seduced by the dark side of the force' feel to it, so to speak ;)

[Lord of the Morning]

Hello! First post, so go gentle :D

 

I think Semirhage may have been used as a pawn to manipulate Rand into tapping into the True Power. Moridin had made it clear he was not happy with her and would punish her for her mistakes, and the Dark One and Moridin would both rather have Rand go over to their side than have him dead. So they set up a circumstance that would push the limits of his desperation - that Semirhage would taunt Rand with Min was kind of predictable - knowing in his desperation he'd strain for a solution and do just about anything to save Min. Also, they did leave him that access key - it was mentioned by Rand that it was left and he retrieved it (to the poster above, I can't remember the exact reference but do recall reading that) - which means that Shaidar Haran's intentions were more about setting a chain of events in motion than in thwarting Rand.

 

It really had the 'seduced by the dark side of the force' feel to it, so to speak ;)

 

This.

 

Semirhage was used to push rand further to the dark side, it's basically a win-win for the DO, Semirhage captures rand and takes him to shayol ghul where he's turned by 13-13, or Rand taps the True Source the DO made available through moridin, and turns even more darkside of his own volition.

[Swigaro]

If Semirhage had used a garrote to choke Min and then been balefired, the bruises would have disappeared.

 

In the scenario as Sanderson wrote it, Rand = garrote.  Semirhage was the actor, Rand was merely the instrument through which she acted.

A garotte isn't a living thread in the pattern, a person is. A person given an order to kill isn't treated the same as swinging the sword yourself when it comes to balefire.

 

BS said somewhere, that everything, even bricks in a wall have a thread in the pattern.  It isn't a question of who did what, it is a question of how much BF was used.  Rand used only enough BF to burn her back a few seconds...

[1eejit]

BS said somewhere, that everything, even bricks in a wall have a thread in the pattern.  It isn't a question of who did what, it is a question of how much BF was used.  Rand used only enough BF to burn her back a few seconds...

Where did he say this? I don't recall it in any of the interviews, Q&A's etc.

 

From the description of Rand holding and using the TP it doesn't sound like he used a weak balefire. If anything it ought to be at his maximum (normal) level - enough for a few minutes at least.

[Bob T Dwarf]

BS said somewhere, that everything, even bricks in a wall have a thread in the pattern.  It isn't a question of who did what, it is a question of how much BF was used.  Rand used only enough BF to burn her back a few seconds...

Where did he say this? I don't recall it in any of the interviews, Q&A's etc.

 

From the description of Rand holding and using the TP it doesn't sound like he used a weak balefire. If anything it ought to be at his maximum (normal) level - enough for a few minutes at least.

 

Crosspost, but what the hey...

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Borders Dallas 14 November 2009 - Claireducky reporting

Claire: (comment regarding the thread on Dragonmount where some are arguing that by balefiring Graendal's palace, the compulsion disappeared since there'd never had been a palace in the first place, and others are arguing that it doesn't work that way, objects don't have threads).

Brandon: Everything has a thread, not just souls.  Even a stone in a wall has a thread in the Pattern.

[1eejit]

The rest of my point stands. Does the pattern, when adjusting for the effects of balefire, distinguish as to whether someone who normally has free will has been forced in their action, compared to an object which can never act on its own? You certainly seem to assume so.

[bushleague]

I really wanted to see a Cadsuane/Semi showdown, but it never happened.

 

We also need a Shaidar Haran (sp) thread...., unless there is one I don't know about?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Why did GLoD send Superfade after Moridin forbade a rescue attempt?

Does this rescue attempt mean a crack in the relationship between Moridin and GLoD?

 

Moridin makes clear that he has washed his hands of Semi.  That it is entirely up to the DO whether she has any further value.

 

"Let Semirhage rot," Moridin growled. "Let her see what it is to be the one questioned. Perhaps the Great Lord will find some use for her in the coming weeks, but that is his to determine. ...

 

So, no crack in the relationship.  Why the DO made the attempt is anybody's guess.  After 70 years of study, Verin had been unable to figure out what motivated the DO, so I'd guess we won't be any more successful.