The Metaphysics of the Wheel

[Bob T Dwarf]

I think the whole I WILL TAKE NO PART... scene in The Eye of the World was to establish up-front that the Creator will not ride in to save the day.

 

Mankind created this mess, mankind has to clean it up.

[ohaitharguiz]

Why does the Creator not get directly involved? Well, we know that the Pattern is meant to be balanced. The Dark One is sealed away (ish), and is currently being countered (ish) by the Wheel's own corrective mechanisms. So the Creator doesn't really need to take a hand. Also, we know that tiny changes can have huge ripples across the Age Lace (Cairhien etc). It seems likely that if the Creator started tweaking things within the Pattern then the ripples and changes could do quite a lot of damage to it a la balefire (what would happen if Rand got mega-balefired? kapow...), hence the use of proxies by both parties (the Dark One is sealed away, the Creator is prevented from acting directly because to act would damage the thing he presumably wants to keep in one piece).

Any thoughts?

 

Why doesn't god kill satan?

[imperium3]

I don't think the DO will ever win, ever. What's more, I can prove it:

 

Aim of the DO is to get free so he can destroy the Pattern.

Therefore if the DO does win, Pattern will be destroyed. Completely.

That includes Time, so past, present and future would not exist.

Therefore the entire Pattern effectively never exists.

Hence it's not possible for the story to be told.

Therefore if there is a story to be told, the Dark One can't ever have won in the whole past, present or future of the Pattern.

Story exists.

Therefore Shai'tan is a loser.

Q.E.D.

 

And as a sidenote, somme of the quotes in the beginning/end of the books ar from Fourth Age historians, which surely show that the Light will win this time round.

[arby64]

And as a sidenote, somme of the quotes in the beginning/end of the books ar from Fourth Age historians, which surely show that the Light will win this time round.

 

Those quotes could be from previous Fourth Ages, or from a possible future the same way Min's viewings for events after the Last Battle will only happen if there still is a pattern.

 

On topic, you could make an argument that the pattern itself is a weave holding the Dark One in the same way the One Power is a weave.  The Dark One is constantly tring to pull apart the threads and the pattern is constantly being put back in place.  It's kind of like the DO is being shielded (with one that is able to stretch, like that one person was able to do)

 

It's also possible that the pattern has to be unraveled carefully in order for the DO to not destroy himself in the process. It could explain why the Dark side stopped using Bale fire. It could unravel the pattern, but would be like when Avienda let the gate explode. The effect would destroy everything including the Dark One.  The DO wants to unravel the pattern in such away that he survives.

[eflynn]

 

If enough balefire was being used to jeapordize it then it cheats. i imagine the pattern gave the Chosen the idea to stop using it in the war of the power, using their own ego's against them, but it made Ishy stop too, and he wants everything busted and had no reason to stop...

 

 

You know, I never understood this.  The DO wants to break the Wheel and destroy the pattern. Balefire burns threads out of the pattern and damages it, so much so that both the good guys and bad guys in the AoL stopped using it, presumably to keep from destroying the pattern - the very thing the DO wants to do.  Why wouldn't the DO order his chosen to continue using balefire?  Seems he could achieve his goal even from within his prison.   

[eflynn]

 

It's also possible that the pattern has to be unraveled carefully in order for the DO to not destroy himself in the process. It could explain why the Dark side stopped using Bale fire. It could unravel the pattern, but would be like when Avienda let the gate explode. The effect would destroy everything including the Dark One.  The DO wants to unravel the pattern in such away that he survives.

 

Interesting.  But the DO doesn't just want to destroy the pattern.  He wants to destroy the Wheel too.  What happens then?  Is EVERYTHING that ever was, is or could be gone?  What would be the point? He'd have dominion over nothing.

 

Or, does time stop but the universe continue to exist like Groundhog Day? Except, you wouldn't relive every day, you would relive every moment, effectively being frozen for eternity since there is no longer a wheel to move time forward.  What really happens if the Wheel is destroyed?

[eflynn]

I don't think the DO will ever win, ever. What's more, I can prove it:

 

Aim of the DO is to get free so he can destroy the Pattern.

Therefore if the DO does win, Pattern will be destroyed. Completely.

That includes Time, so past, present and future would not exist.

Therefore the entire Pattern effectively never exists.

Hence it's not possible for the story to be told.

Therefore if there is a story to be told, the Dark One can't ever have won in the whole past, present or future of the Pattern.

Story exists.

Therefore Shai'tan is a loser.

Q.E.D.

 

And as a sidenote, somme of the quotes in the beginning/end of the books ar from Fourth Age historians, which surely show that the Light will win this time round.

 

Perhaps, but think about this.  In a universe with cyclical time, not linear time, the moment of creation itself is a part of the pattern that the Wheel returns to eventually.  There can only be a moment of creation if there is a moment of no creation.  Perhaps we haven't really seen a complete turning of the Wheel yet.  That doesn't seem to be what RJ had in mind but if it's true, then something HAS to happen to destroy all of creation so it can be created again.  I'd actually be disappointed if it turned out the DO never really had a chance to begin with. 

[analyticalkeys]

Hasn't the DO been sealed OUTSIDE of the Pattern... so can't we assume, that he's also outside of the Pattern, since he was sealed outside of it... then doesn't that make it entirely plausible that it's possible for him to destroy the Pattern and not destroy himself? I don't think he'll EVER get to this, but it doesn't seem like such an impossibility that there's no point in him even trying this.

[eflynn]

Hasn't the DO been sealed OUTSIDE of the Pattern... so can't we assume, that he's also outside of the Pattern, since he was sealed outside of it... then doesn't that make it entirely plausible that it's possible for him to destroy the Pattern and not destroy himself? I don't think he'll EVER get to this, but it doesn't seem like such an impossibility that there's no point in him even trying this.

 

Sure, it's certainly possible, just pointless.  Destroy the pattern, destroy the Wheel so there could never be another pattern, and what's left?  What would he be master of?  Why bother?  That's why I'm wondering what the true ramifications of destroying the Wheel of Time are.

[lordofsoup]

couldent it just be a game and when the DO, wins, he becomes the creator and makes his own pattern and seals the former creator away, who then becomes the DO?

[Tathel]

I wonder if it's possible that say, the creator has a limited amount of power he can create but never change what he creates. so to avoid stagnation he creates destruction (IE. change), in order to prevent stagnation from overtaking destruction he must make both forces equally as powerful, so he puts half his power into the dark one and half his power into creation which opposes the dark one. In this way the creator is not an opposition to the dark one, his creation is (IE the dragon reborn would be the paragon of that creation). Now if the creator has given half himself to the DO and half himself to creation he is no more, or effectively maybe he is both.

 

As for the void in EoTW i'm not sure RJ had his whole cosmology / magic system the way he wanted it. we don't even know for sure it was the creator (unless that's been confirmed somewhere i've missed) but if it was the creator maybe there is some bit of him in all his creations and when the paragon of balance sorta reaches it's head nearing tarmon gai'don there might be some echo of his existance within existance.

 

Just a theory though there isn't much evidence to support the creator being effectively dead or neutered other than non interference.

[CUBAREY]

couldent it just be a game and when the DO, wins, he becomes the creator and makes his own pattern and seals the former creator away, who then becomes the DO?

 

I think people are confusing what the DO wants and what Ishy wants. As described in the books what would happen if the DO were to be freed from his prison is not that the pattern would be destroyed but that the pattern would be re-created in the DO's image. Now the idea of totally destroying the pattern is one that Ishy mused about in one of the earlier books and explains why his intent is not identical to the DO's.

 

So you are partially correct if the DO wins and the world is recreated in his image he does become a sort of creator.  However, whether or not the true creator would be imprisoned in such a world is unknown.

 

 

Further the fact that the Chosen decided to stop using balefire is consistent with the DO's wishes, after all the DO does not want the Pattern totally destroyed he wants it re-created into his own image. Further, the Chosen have their own selfish interests that they also serve, it would be unrealistic for them to do something that would mean the end of their existence (After all the hold that the DO has over them is the carrot that in the recreated World where he is free they will be only subservient to him. To order them to do something that would totally destroyed the Pattern and their own existence would therefore be counterproductive and the Do would therefore never order such a thing).

 

 

I wonder if it's possible that say, the creator has a limited amount of power he can create but never change what he creates. so to avoid stagnation he creates destruction (IE. change), in order to prevent stagnation from overtaking destruction he must make both forces equally as powerful, so he puts half his power into the dark one and half his power into creation which opposes the dark one. In this way the creator is not an opposition to the dark one, his creation is (IE the dragon reborn would be the paragon of that creation). Now if the creator has given half himself to the DO and half himself to creation he is no more, or effectively maybe he is both.

 

Except that you forget that the DO has his own power and is actively attempting to undue the Creator's creation. Thus, the Creator set up the pattern to maintain his creation, and since the DO's energies are expended to undue the pattern the Creator must be seen as having expended his power in the creation of a Pattern that fights the effects of the Do. Moreover, the Creator instead of attempting to avoid stagnation in fact created the Pattern to insure that his creation would not be recreated in the Do's image (which is the definition of stagnation-creation of a system that maintains itself and insures that it will not be changed into a different system.).

 

[pygmalion]

It seems to me that the Dark One simply lied to all of his "chosen" except for Ishy, who is the only one that wants the same thing he wants. His goal is destruction of life, the universe, and everything, but as Verin said, the motives of darkfriends are easy to see. They are selfish and greedy, and would not be following the Dark One if he didn't sweeten the deal with everlasting dominion over the world. There is no reason to believe that he is telling the truth about recreating the world in his image, and since Ishy is Nae'blis and seems to want an end to everything, we can only assume that the Dark One agrees with him. I think people are thinking of the Dark One as being too human. It makes no sense to us to have the ultimate goal be oblivion, but the Dark One does not have the same sort of mind as a human, and therefore has very different goals than humanity has.

[lillcheese]

I think the Creator accidentally wove himself into a prison when he created the Wheel & Pattern.  At first, he was okay with it.  As the Wheel turned, he got tired of it and started trying to get out of his mess.  Time after time, he was frustrated by the workings of his own creation.  After long enough he started to rot, because really you don't have good ventilation in that prison there.  Now he's so desperate to get out he's willing to destroy his own masterpiece just to end it all.

 

The End. :)

[MatrixM]

it doesn't actually seem logical that the DO can win, becuase any act that will lead to his freedom can always be countered by adding more wheel changing chumps like the big three to the mix.

 

Say rand was going to go nuts and blow himself up then another ta'veren could be created out of say Tam, which then twists chance so that just once in a billion rand listens to reason and guess what, he does!

 

it's enough to make you feel sorry for poor old Moridin. His plan to break everything is a good one, but the DO can never actually win...

he's better just finding a vacuole and ending it that way...

By your thinking, the existence of dark friends and shadowspawn makes no sense. The Dark One is beyond the pattern. If it was the Dark One's influence that almost made Rand destroy the whole world/pattern then the pattern can't do anything.

 

I don't think the Creator is investing his complete power into the preservation of the wheell, as someone said, because the Dark One isn't.

[Ashaman DeRouge]

I just had a thought and had to come running.

 

Do you think the tain might have been a residue of the True Power?

 

Just a thin smear over the top of the pool of saidar, so the first "unit" of One Power they use is actually the True Power?

 

Before you say the Dark One has to allow it, two things. Firstly, and simply, It's The Dark Ones plan, he WOULD allow it to go ahead. Secondly, I don't think its actively being "generated" by the Dark One, or regenerated, I think the taint might have been the exact same as the pool of saidar in The Eye of the World, with the green man.

 

...the end?

 

Thoughts?

[MatrixM]

No. True Power doesn't make you feel like vomiting, make you decay alive, go mad etc. Also, Rand would attempt to grab saidin but only get the taint, unable to channel.

[MatrixM]

And I thought it was generally accepted that the Light wins/survives due to the outrigger novels.

[Ashaman DeRouge]

No. True Power doesn't make you feel like vomiting, make you decay alive, go mad etc. Also, Rand would attempt to grab saidin but only get the taint, unable to channel.

 

I'm not sure about that. We don't really know the effects of TP (long term) on non-dark or non-protected channelers, tapping it just a touch each time. Ishmael was loony, and correct me if i'm wrong but its usually associated with the TP? perhaps the dark one's protection is merely clearing them a 'clean' access to the OP.

 

I dont think we know enough to prove or disprove it either way. In regards to Rand grabbing the OP, picture drinking a beer, you go to drink the liquid, but the liquid pushes a little bit of foam before it.

 

Man I love analagies involving beer!

[MatrixM]

Yeah, but... you can't channel the foam. And the foam doesn't feel 10x as good as the one power.

[Mr Ares]

The only thing i think RJ dropped the ball on is saying that the Shadow looks like its winning. it isn't, never really has done, and by the mechanics set in place never really can. after all, assuming that Rand was about to turn to the dark one the pattern would just have him die from a sudden heart attack or hell even a freak quantum fluctuation could make him dissolve into his component atoms.

Wow, you're clearly far more up on the workings of the Wheel than that know-nothing RJ! The Light needs Rand to win. If he dropped dead of a heart attack, Shadow wins.

 

i imagine the pattern gave the Chosen the idea to stop using it in the war of the power, using their own ego's against them, but it made Ishy stop too, and he wants everything busted and had no reason to stop...

There's no reason to drag the Pattern into it, they have reason enough to stop, as does Ishy. While he does want the destruction of everything, if he went around balefiring everything, his fellows would be a little bit pissed off.

 

Why doesn't god kill satan?

Out of love. But that's not really relevant here, as we're not dealing with Christian theology - the Creator is not God, and Shai'tan isn't Satan. Both are gods, equal yet opposite. Zoroastrianism seems to be the best fit.

 

I don't think the DO will ever win, ever. What's more, I can prove it:

 

Aim of the DO is to get free so he can destroy the Pattern.

Therefore if the DO does win, Pattern will be destroyed. Completely.

That includes Time, so past, present and future would not exist.

Therefore the entire Pattern effectively never exists.

Hence it's not possible for the story to be told.

Therefore if there is a story to be told, the Dark One can't ever have won in the whole past, present or future of the Pattern.

Story exists.

Therefore Shai'tan is a loser.

Q.E.D.

 

And as a sidenote, somme of the quotes in the beginning/end of the books ar from Fourth Age historians, which surely show that the Light will win this time round.

Well, if He destroys the past then the past happened right up until there wasn't a then for it to happen in. Like balefire. Stuff happens, then it never happened. It is unhappened. The entire Wheel will be unhappened if Shai'tan wins. There is time until He wins, but when He does there never will have been. QED. And those Fourth Age historians will only have written their stories if Shai'tan loses. If He wins, then they will never be written, nor will any of the events of the books happen. Like Min's Viewings of the future, they are certain visions of the future unless He wins, in which case they're not.

 

Why wouldn't the DO order his chosen to continue using balefire?

Why would they obey an order so counter to their own self interest?

[clu7ch]

I don't exactly hold with some of the views here. For once thing, Even though much suggest the contrary (saidar and saidin, the one power and the true power, p's and v's, etc) I don't see that balance inherently exists. The creator, as with God in our religions, could either be an all-knowing deity, or a cosmic accident, and all we see now the result of that, including the dark one. I think it mimic's that very well, and the only way to make your mind up on the matter is faith.

 

Furthermore if I compare the Creator to God once more, Say the creator made the people of Randland in his image, I doubt he'd create the Dark One to keep himself in check. We're a selfish bunch, and don't much care to be kept in check.

[mossman87]

Why does the Creator not get directly involved? Well, we know that the Pattern is meant to be balanced. The Dark One is sealed away (ish), and is currently being countered (ish) by the Wheel's own corrective mechanisms. So the Creator doesn't really need to take a hand. Also, we know that tiny changes can have huge ripples across the Age Lace (Cairhien etc). It seems likely that if the Creator started tweaking things within the Pattern then the ripples and changes could do quite a lot of damage to it a la balefire (what would happen if Rand got mega-balefired? kapow...), hence the use of proxies by both parties (the Dark One is sealed away, the Creator is prevented from acting directly because to act would damage the thing he presumably wants to keep in one piece).

Any thoughts?

 

Why doesn't god kill satan?

 

Because there wouldn't be a bogeyman to scare people into following if the stories just had satan dead and gone.

[eflynn]

 

Why wouldn't the DO order his chosen to continue using balefire?

 

Why would they obey an order so counter to their own self interest?

 

Why do they obey any orders from the DO, knowing what his ultimate plan is?

 

[analyticalkeys]

 

Why wouldn't the DO order his chosen to continue using balefire?

 

Why would they obey an order so counter to their own self interest?

 

Why do they obey any orders from the DO, knowing what his ultimate plan is?

 

 

They don't know what his ultimate plan is... they simply think he wants to reshape the world in his own image, and that they will be honored greatly when this change comes around. Moridin is the only one who really knows what's going on, and embraces it because he wants a final end to everything.. which is probably why he is Nae'blis.