Mesaana (Full Spoilers)

[FanoLan]

Why would she need info on ajah head meetings if she's the ajah head of the Red?

 

And the Red doesn't seem to suit her character, a scholar as a Red?

 

Tsutama was not part of the ajah head conspiracy because she didn't get raised to the post until after the other five began their quest.  After Elaida seized the stole, she recalled the Reds that had been exiled including Tsutama and Toveine.  The ajah head conspiracy was already underway.

 

Please note I'm not asserting Tsutama is Messy, just that Tsu was not part of the ajah head conspiracy so we cannot use that evidence against her being Messy's alter ego.

[clu7ch]

Sarafelle sounds like a good fit. she's brown, mentioned to Verin that there are many lost books to be found.....DUH CUS SHE"S FREKKIN FROM TEH AoL.

 

I dunno how likely, but I like this. Plus we haven't seen hardly anything from her in ages, and when we have, she's been around Verin, who is our lovely spy, may she rest in peace.

[scooter-tws]

One thing I've always wondered about the oath rod - do you need to speak the oaths out loud or are silent oaths binding?

 

We've seen from the first interactions between Aes Sedai and aiel that AS don't always use the most straightforward means of channeling and they never understand how (ter/s')angreal really work.

 

Could Mesaana hold the oath rod, state the first two oaths out loud, silently remove the first two oaths, then state the third out loud?

 

Alternatively, she could state "I am not a darkfriend" with all other oaths intact, at that time "abandoning the dark," then silently remove those previous oaths and become a darkfriend again. The GLotD probably wouldn't like Messy forswearing the dark, even for a minute, but really can she be any further in his bad graces?

 

It'd be even easier if she could state the third oath as "I am not Black Ajah," because she isn't - she never took the Black oaths on the oath rod. Then the whole silent oaths things is moot, because she could always have them all removed later.

 

As for who she is, it's really anyone's guess at this point.

[clu7ch]

I believe there was a Q/A that was concerning the topic of whether or not the Chosen consider themselves darkfriends, BS's answer was sketchy, but I think she could get away with saying 'I'm not a darkfriend' because technically she's a forsaken, or chosen, rather than a darkfriend.

[scooter-tws]

I believe there was a Q/A that was concerning the topic of whether or not the Chosen consider themselves darkfriends, BS's answer was sketchy, but I think she could get away with saying 'I'm not a darkfriend' because technically she's a forsaken, or chosen, rather than a darkfriend.

 

In that case, Messy can hold the oath rod, take the three oaths, and be just fine.

 

Until she runs into Verin's problem, that is. Imagine Messy trying to remove that pesky "no lies and no power-weapons" thing and discovering the oath rod is no longer available for the filching.

 

 

[scooter-tws]

One other oddity about Mesaana and the oath rod...

 

It seems reasonable that, before the tower AS are allowed to reswear the three oaths, they must remove any previous oaths. That's what Pevara Tazanovni et al had to do when they were hunting Black sisters.

 

If that's true, if Messy had to remove all oaths before reswearing, would she still be Forsaken? If I remember correctly, "remove all oaths" don't just remove all oaths previously sworn on the oath rod - it would remove all oaths (i.e. those to the Dark One as well).

[clu7ch]

what if the oath of a forsaken isn't really an oath at all? Just an alliance of bad people who don't want to shake sticks at each other, at least directly??

[Graendals favourite]

Hmm, the Chosen made their oaths at Shayol Ghul. However, I do not think those are bindings, for instance Asmodean could switch sides, as well as Lanfear at least intimated that she would with Lewie at her side (and she confessed it in her thoughts at the cleansing), so it is a completely different thing.

 

The Black Ajah on the other hand do not go there: Alviarin, when talking to Fain in the Tower basement, confessed to not having been to Shayol Ghul (she said, I have heard... or some such), and she was the head of the Black Ajah after all.

 

However, the Black Ajah's oath are bound on them with one rod or another, since only that causes the ageless look: without oaths, they would loose the look in time. Of course, the binder also shortens their lives, but there is hardly an alternative.

[clu7ch]

agreed

[scooter-tws]

what if the oath of a forsaken isn't really an oath at all? Just an alliance of bad people who don't want to shake sticks at each other, at least directly??

 

"..At that first meeting, when she (Graendal) accepted his (Sammael's) initial pledges to the Great Lord..."

 

LOC ch6 p170

Several other places speak of "oaths" or "vows" to the Great Lord, but aren't cited in the book.

 

I agree forsaken probably don't take oaths to each other, but it appears they do take an oath/vow/what-have-you to the DO. Whether you can get around that with semantics "I took a vow, not an oath!," I'm not sure...

[scooter-tws]

Hmm, the Chosen made their oaths at Shayol Ghul. However, I do not think those are bindings, for instance Asmodean could switch sides, as well as Lanfear at least intimated that she would with Lewie at her side

 

I agree, the binding nature of oaths taken by the Forsaken and the BA are very different. But if you forswear all previous oaths on a binder, wouldn't that remove any oaths to the DO no matter if those earlier oaths were made on a binder or not?

[clu7ch]

well provided the way things work in this storyline d:

 

I promised the dark lord.....

if i break that promise I have to give him my milk money

[scooter-tws]

...I have to give him my milk money

 

...or have a pleasant little chat with Shaidar Haran...

[clu7ch]

yeah....milk money is just pointless. what was i thinking. you can just go find a cow willy-nilly and get your milk now-a-days.

 

Plus everyone loves losing fingers.....

 

 

sorry to side-track....

um...

 

Messy is Sarafelle. d:

 

[Graendals favourite]

I agree, the binding nature of oaths taken by the Forsaken and the BA are very different. But if you forswear all previous oaths on a binder, wouldn't that remove any oaths to the DO no matter if those earlier oaths were made on a binder or not?

I don't think the Dark One would see it that way  ;). What is removed is the person's inability to intentionally break the oaths.

 

Perhaps the Black Ajah has another rod, a black rod, and Verin was unsure the oath rod would do. :) No, but Galina did not know of other rods save Therava's and the oath rod. Verin says "the process of making those oaths to the Great Lord was ... distinctive." Perhaps that means the rod was used differently, so Verin was not sure the same method would work. Or perhaps Verin was not sure she could remove the oaths by herself.

[mikebell90]

There is an easy way to get past the Oath Rod:

 

Ignorance.

 

If you don't know you are telling a lie, you can tell one.

 

 

Similarly if Mesaana has a way to segment her personality or remove her memory and then have it only reactivate under certain circumstances, she

could pass the Oath Rod test most of the time. Or heck, if she found out in time here, could have simply had a temporary memory impairment implant.

[Terez]

A poster at Theoryland has made a very definitive argument for Danelle being Mesaana.  I will quote him here:

 

...the blue eyes are key. According to the encyclopedia, these Aes Sedai who remained in the Tower have blue eyes:

 

Kera (Green)

Tarna (Red)

Danelle (Brown)

Seaine (White)

Melare (Red)

Nesita (Red/Black)

 

She is not Nesita or Seaine. Seaine is a Black Ajah hunter and Shaidar Haran told Mesaana that he didn't want the Black Ajah destroyed. Nesita was revealed as Black Ajah. She must be Kera, Tarna, Danelle, or Melare. She is not Melare or Tarna since they are part of Pevara's group at the Black Tower. Unless Mesaana is Kera, who we have not seen much at all, she is Danelle. Since RJ said we really should be able to figure it out, it is more likely to be someone we've seen more than once. We don't even need to know that Danelle is friendless or that Mesaana often dresses in bronze to conclude this.

That, along with the other evidence, seems to put the nail in the coffin.

 

 

[NegaWalker]

I was just listening to The Dragon Reborn over again, and listening to the part where Lanfear confronts Mat Cauthon in his bedroom after he wakes up.

 

There is something important there.

 

Mat Cauthon is about to ask if Lanfear was a Darkfriend, and she denies she is, saying they are 'Ba'alzemon's little pets'. So they are considered, at least by Lanfear, to be something seperate. Something belonging solely to Moridin/Ishamael.

 

If Mesaana believes this as well, then she could truthfully say, 'I am not a Darkfriend' with the Oath Rod's binding on her.

 

So, that might be how she beat the Oath Rod.

[Mr Ares]

That's something that has been brought up before, but as Luckers has pointed out, she is trying to deceive Mat. She's not necessarily being honest.

[Graendals favourite]

What is needed then, is the Forsaken's thoughts on Darkfriends. Like Asmodean saying that Kadere thought him a Darkfriend, if a high-standing one.

[havoc110]

Eg should have considered a 4th oath then, about being released from your oaths only by the Amyrlin, or some such.

 

I've always believed that a forsaken could truthfully claim to not be a DF.  I also see them potentially having an OP/TP related way to circumvent the oath rod, one still unbeknownst to us.

 

I still can't understand why Sammy GAVE AWAY rod #111.  It makes no sense.  That was the best use he could come up with, giving it to Sevannah for her to use on Rand?  And people want to argue that he wasn't an idiot?

[esseeayen]

Brandon confirmed there was a way to beat the oath rod. Can we figure out how?

 

My thought here is that the words for swearing on the Oath Rod are traditionally "Under the Light and by my hope of salvation and rebirth, <insert oath>," as seen in New Spring when Moiraine and Siuan are raised to the shawl.  Since Mesaana is a servant of the Dark One, this oath would be meaningless to her and therefore one that she could violate at will.

 

Thoughts?

[clu7ch]

I agree, as she isn't under the light

[moffwolf]

From Firebird:

Oh there's lots more to Danelle than just not having any friends  :)

 

She is one of the sisters involved with overthrowing Siuan as Amyrlin. She smirks at Siuan while Elaida is confronting her. She was also responsible for supervising the masons who were working on the new library. When Siuan is deposed and all hell breaks loose, Danelle's "masons" invade the tower leading to the warders fighting.

 

Mesaana was a scholarly type, so it would perhaps make sense for her to disguise herself as a Brown, and since Danelle has no friends, she doesn't need to worry about giving herself away by behaving out of character.

 

I honestly don't see any one that has come any where close to an argument that Messy is some one other than Danelle.  When I heard that RJ said that we should have figured it out by COT, this was the exact piece of evidence that led me to believe it was Danelle.  Think about the chaos she sowed in the tower by having a key role in the overthrow of Siuan.  Danelle also KNEW there would be fighting, likely because she started the whole thing.  What random librarian suddenly takes an interest in the overthrow of the Amyrlin?  So much so that she places TROOPS IN DISGUISE in the Tower just in case there was fighting?    

 

The rest of the evidence (brown dress, blue eyes, her researcher background, no friends, and that she's posing as Aes Sedai) is all circumstancial- but it all fits.  This is the answer.  

[CUBAREY]

I honestly don't see any one that has come any where close to an argument that Messy is some one other than Danelle.  When I heard that RJ said that we should have figured it out by COT, this was the exact piece of evidence that led me to believe it was Danelle.  Think about the chaos she sowed in the tower by having a key role in the overthrow of Siuan.  Danelle also KNEW there would be fighting, likely because she started the whole thing.  What random librarian suddenly takes an interest in the overthrow of the Amyrlin?  So much so that she places TROOPS IN DISGUISE in the Tower just in case there was fighting?   

 

The rest of the evidence (brown dress, blue eyes, her researcher background, no friends, and that she's posing as Aes Sedai) is all circumstancial- but it all fits.  This is the answer.  Where exactly do you get the "fact" that she is posing as Aes Sedai. We have been told that she is in the White Tower and presume that she is am Aes Sedai but for all we know she could be a servant. Further adding up all the chaos that she has helped further I would suggest that Laras (mistress of the kitchens) is as good a candidate as any identified.