Demandred (Full Spoilers).

[Nethran Thaimal]

Halima wasn't that minor.  It killed Aes Sedai in the rebel camp, tried to channel at Mat, beat the crap out of Sheriam, and channeled at Egwene's brain on a regular basis, not to mention fought at the Cleansing.

 

Anywho, in my opinion, Demandred is either hiding behind RJ's denials, is King Roedran, or we haven't seen him yet.  That's it, unless someone can point out a possible candidate from tGS that hadn't appeared "on screen" until this book.

 

I personally doubt King Roedran.  He seems like a guy just trying to unify his own country for once.  Demandred would hate having such a sorry place of power, I think.

[Blademaster Breaker]

I was saying she was minor in that nobody knew she did it until it was too late

[Impressive Bosom]

For the purpose of argument forget RJ's denial of Taim = Demandred.

Why does Demandred fail to recognise Flinn or even Ashaman uniform at Shadar Logoth if he's Taim or impersonating Taim?

Perhaps because Demandred is not Taim.

Why does Flinn fail to recognise his teacher at Shadar Logoth?

Perhaps because Demandred doesn't look like Taim.  

Also why does LTT / RaT fail to recognise Demandred since he knows Barid Bel Thingummy pretty well?

Perhaps because Taim doesn't look like Demandred.

 

One way around this would be Mask of Mirrors except

1) Taim cannot have been using MoM when he and Rand met in LoC. There were Saldaean swords poking him and touch destroys MoM.

Plus he was not holding Saidin at the time. Rand was pretty sure about that and while you can invert weaves, two Saidin channelers in close proximity can always detect if either is hplding Saidin.

Or else Halima would not have had a problem in Salidar or Shadar Logoth.

 

So despite the similar physical description, Taim wasn't holding MoM and he doesn't look like Demandred.

 

2) I've heard it suggested that he had somehow put on a TP MoM. But Taim channels OP multiple times onscreen without ever changing appearance. So either he can use TP (without GLoD's permission!) and channel OP at the same time or he wasn't using a TP MoM.

 

Ergo Taim isn't using a TP MoM and he doesn't actually look like Demandred.

 

Yes, I've posted this thing before but I'll post it again everytime the

"Taim=Demandred and RJ was lying" comes up

 

I've not received coherent rebuttals of the above - ever.

 

 

 

I know this has been stated a number of times, but I'll state it again. What about the possibility that Taim was a real person initially, but was 'replaced' by Demi at some point, keeping true to both RJ's statements and the points you make above.

 

Can you at least agree that there are a LOT of similarities between Taim and Demi that can't possibly accidental? And if he had been set up as a deliberate Red Herring, that it is highly unlikely RJ would simply announce to the world that its just a Red Herring long before the reveal?

[Sab]

Taim is not Demandred.

[Sharaman]

I know this has been stated a number of times, but I'll state it again. What about the possibility that Taim was a real person initially, but was 'replaced' by Demi at some point, keeping true to both RJ's statements and the points you make above.

 

Can you at least agree that there are a LOT of similarities between Taim and Demi that can't possibly accidental? And if he had been set up as a deliberate Red Herring, that it is highly unlikely RJ would simply announce to the world that its just a Red Herring long before the reveal?

 

At what point did the replacement happen?

I think RJ wrote the WH scene with Flinn to very deliberately debunk the Taim=Demandred theory.

 

[Nethran Thaimal]

I can say with no doubt that the theory won't die until we know for sure.  It's useless to make posts consisting only of statements like "Taim is not Demandred".  It argues nothing and convinces no one.

[Vulgir]

I can say with no doubt that the theory won't die until we know for sure.  It's useless to make posts consisting only of statements like "Taim is not Demandred".  It argues nothing and convinces no one.

 

 

Obvisouly Taim isn't Demandred.  Its much more likely that Demandred is Taim. :o

[WolfDragonFox]

What Vulgir said!

[Vulgir]

L-2-word order, your arguements that have been disproven over and over.

[Sab]

What is left to argue??  Every possible arguement for and against Taim being Demandred has been given and gone over for the last few years.  Again it would be pointless to make Dem Taim and put one of the Gars in the tower.

[Impressive Bosom]

I know this has been stated a number of times, but I'll state it again. What about the possibility that Taim was a real person initially, but was 'replaced' by Demi at some point, keeping true to both RJ's statements and the points you make above.

 

Can you at least agree that there are a LOT of similarities between Taim and Demi that can't possibly accidental? And if he had been set up as a deliberate Red Herring, that it is highly unlikely RJ would simply announce to the world that its just a Red Herring long before the reveal?

 

At what point did the replacement happen?

I think RJ wrote the WH scene with Flinn to very deliberately debunk the Taim=Demandred theory.

 

 

So you won't acknowledge what had to be deliberate similarities, not just in appearance and behaviour, but in the words that actually came out of Taim's mouth (i.e. Lord of Chaos, so-call Aes Sedai, etc.)... and you think its more likely that RJ would be so concerned over a fan theory that he would insert a scene just to debunk it than that the many similarities and parallels between the two characters both before and after were deliberate?

[Sharaman]

I think he was having fun and got tired of it at some stage and decided to scotch the theory and wrote the WH scene.

I didn't say the similarities are not deliberate.

The two characters are, in literary terms, introduced and developed simultaneously in LoC.

So yes, the similarities were probably deliberate though I've heard he seemed surprised when the first Q&As of Taimandred came through. So there is just a slim chance that the similarities were unconscious.

Or he may even have intended Taim=Demandred and changed his mind when he was drafting WH.

But he said no to the theory so many times, it should be buried by now.

 

[Impressive Bosom]

I think he was having fun and got tired of it at some stage and decided to scotch the theory and wrote the WH scene.

I didn't say the similarities are not deliberate.

The two characters are, in literary terms, introduced and developed simultaneously in LoC.

So yes, the similarities were probably deliberate though I've heard he seemed surprised when the first Q&As of Taimandred came through. So there is just a slim chance that the similarities were unconscious.

Or he may even have intended Taim=Demandred and changed his mind when he was drafting WH.

But he said no to the theory so many times, it should be buried by now.

 

 

If that's the case - if he originally planned to write them as the same person and then changed his mind for some reason - I truly hope one day that reason becomes known... because it is absolutely the perfect fit and all that character development ditched in exchange for someone we may not have even SEEN yet (12 books in) would be gravely disappointing, to me at least.

[JakeBarnes]

If that's the case - if he originally planned to write them as the same person and then changed his mind for some reason - I truly hope one day that reason becomes known... because it is absolutely the perfect fit and all that character development ditched in exchange for someone we may not have even SEEN yet (12 books in) would be gravely disappointing, to me at least.

 

It isn't wasted.  Mazrim Taim pretty much is the third age version of Demandred.  The similarities do seem very deliberate, but if you take them in stride, it's more a way of foreshadowing that Taim would come to a point where his jealousy would make him turn sides. 

[Impressive Bosom]

I think he was having fun and got tired of it at some stage and decided to scotch the theory and wrote the WH scene.

I didn't say the similarities are not deliberate.

The two characters are, in literary terms, introduced and developed simultaneously in LoC.

So yes, the similarities were probably deliberate though I've heard he seemed surprised when the first Q&As of Taimandred came through. So there is just a slim chance that the similarities were unconscious.

Or he may even have intended Taim=Demandred and changed his mind when he was drafting WH.

But he said no to the theory so many times, it should be buried by now.

 

 

Just revisiting this... RJ seemed suprised when the first Q&A's of Taimandred came through.

 

Despite the two characters being physicially described very similarly.

Despite LTT's immediate and visceral reaction to Taim when they first meet.

Despite their introduction pretty much at the same time.

Despite the fact that Taim would likely have been 'The Dragon' if Rand had not been, much as Demi would likely have been 'The Dragon' if LTT had not been (in their respective minds, at least).

Despite the fact Demi has spoken as someone of this age would not have ('these so-called Aes Sedai') and has spoken as someone who had been to Shayol Ghul would have ('let the Lord of Chaos rule').

Despite the fact that he has built his own private army of Asha'man in opposition to Rand and Demi tells the Morridin that his army is secure and waiting (what other standing army is there that might realistically belong to Demi?).

 

This list is far from complete, but it paints a pretty glaring picture of a character very deliberately set up to be Demandred... and I find it hard to believe that 1) RJ would be 'suprised' that someone might see the similarities so deliberately and painstakingly put into place or 2) RJ would go to such great efforts to create a red herring and then publically announce that it is in fact just that. He wasn't exactly known for acknowledging or debunking significant theories before they are revealed (i.e. Verin for instance).

 

I'm still holding to the fact that there is some explanation to side-step his words on the matter, rather than simply assuming that he decided at random to throw away so much careful character development for such a major character (two, actually) at what amounts to the last minute. THAT explanation is the one that strains credibility, considering what we know of the man as a writer and as a person.

[Nethran Thaimal]

I personally would have dropped thinking it a long time ago if I hadn't read this:

 

Have you confirmed that Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, leader of the Black Tower?

 

Robert Jordan Answers:

 

~Yes. Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim.~ All right, those of who fell over from the shock of a simple, straightforward answer can get up off the floor now. Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you. **

 

The hints are

1) Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim and

2) a straightforward answer can be the most devious, as any student of Aes Sedai can tell you.

 

He says yes and no in the same answer.  Despite all of the evidence to the contrary, this answer makes me want to believe Taim is not Taim.  I won't stop believing it until it's proven false in the series.  Call me stupid-stubborn if you want.  I'm just willing to wait. :)

 

[The Fisher King]

ImpBo Said: I'm still holding to the fact that there is some explanation to side-step his words on the matter, rather than simply assuming that he decided at random to throw away so much careful character development for such a major character (two, actually) at what amounts to the last minute. THAT explanation is the one that strains credibility, considering what we know of the man as a writer and as a person.

 

This is pretty much how I feel about it too.

 

 

Fish

 

 

 

 

[Sharaman]

I'm not certain about this but I seem to have read a Linuxmafia or somebody Q&A report, which said he was definitely surprised when somebody first asked the Taim-Demandred question. I'm sure somebody can dig up the original and I'm quite likely to be wrong.

 

It was a long time ago. Right after LoC came out.

 

It would make sense by the way if he wassetting it up and thought that it had been caught to change course at that point.

He may have thought, better that, than take a response of "aw we knew it" four-five books down the line, whenever he was going to reveal it.

 

I can't think of any other reason to do the WH Shadar Logoth PoV than to deliberately scotch the theory.

 

It is also possible that he did unconsciously plagiarise himself, so to speak, if he was working on two similar character developments at the same time. It's been known to happen. From what I've heard, the man used to write three versions of every scene and revisit every plotline, so there would be a lot of revision and re-development of character in every book before it was print-ready.

 

(The other way round, if BS has to live with Taim=Demandred and write that in, we're going to have people screaming that he's betrayed RJ's legacy, given what happened with his Mat chapters.)

 

BTW Demandred says "My rule is secure. We gather for War." - no mention of armies there.

 

[Nethran Thaimal]

He may have thought, better that, than take a response of "aw we knew it" four-five books down the line, whenever he was going to reveal it.

 

 

Well, it seems he may have avoided most people saying "Aw, we knew it" already if it turns out to-against many, many people's persistent surety- somehow be so.

[Impressive Bosom]

 

(The other way round, if BS has to live with Taim=Demandred and write that in, we're going to have people screaming that he's betrayed RJ's legacy, given what happened with his Mat chapters.)

 

BTW Demandred says "My rule is secure. We gather for War." - no mention of armies there.

 

 

I stand corrected on that quote. And yes, BS really is in a no-win situation on some of these issues. Every great moment or shocking revelation will be RJ's, every error or inconsistency will be Sanderson's. He took on so much when he agreed to finish these novels, and hopefully will get the praise and accolades he deserves when it is finished.

[Sharaman]

There is that second quote - the post CoT one

Q: "Have we seen Demandred's alter ego onscreen yet?"

A: "No"

Reprise.

Again, that can be parsed many ways perhaps.  

 

[Nethran Thaimal]

Aye.  If Demandred's not pretending to be Taim, as I said a while back, but allowing people to think what they want(since he never claimed the name Taim himself in the entire series(apologies for the rhyming)), you can't really call "Taim" his alter ego.

[Impressive Bosom]

Aye.  If Demandred's not pretending to be Taim, as I said a while back, but allowing people to think what they want(since he never claimed the name Taim himself in the entire series(apologies for the rhyming)), you can't really call "Taim" his alter ego.

 

Is that true? That he's never named himself Mazrim Tain in the books? I don't have them here with me to go back and see, but I would think he would have at least at the first meeting.

 

Of course, it could be argued that every time someone spoke to him and called him 'Taim' and he answered, that he was acknowledging that that was who he was. 'Posing', as it were.

[Majsju]

Emma: Was Taimandred a deliberate ruse to lead your readers astray, or were you surprised (by the all of the theories connecting Taim to Demandred)?

 

Jordan: I was surprisedbut I wasnt going to disabuse you of it for a while, I like to watch you squirm.

 

http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/9912/t/Second-Q-amp-A-Saturday.html

[wingedearth]

If that's the case - if he originally planned to write them as the same person and then changed his mind for some reason - I truly hope one day that reason becomes known... because it is absolutely the perfect fit and all that character development ditched in exchange for someone we may not have even SEEN yet (12 books in) would be gravely disappointing, to me at least.

 

It isn't wasted.  Mazrim Taim pretty much is the third age version of Demandred.  The similarities do seem very deliberate, but if you take them in stride, it's more a way of foreshadowing that Taim would come to a point where his jealousy would make him turn sides. 

 

Well what would be strange is that if the two were one, then we're stuck wondering about the real Mazrim Taim, who was a channeling False Dragon in Saldaea while Demandred was still sealed at Shayol Ghul.