Demandred (Full Spoilers).

[Paerish Swar]

I noticed something about Demandred at the very beginning of LoC when he travels to Shayol Ghul.

 

When he goes there it is the day after Rand balefired Rahvin.  The time of year at this time is most certainly well into spring, if not feeling much closer to summer in the southern regions of Randland (The towns of Maeron and Aringill are described in the first chapter as being "baked" by the sun).

 

Demandred is described as reflexively pulling his "fur-lined velvet cloak closer" against the cold of Shayol Ghul.  But he went there ALREADY wearing a velvet cloak that was lined with fur.  If it is somewhere near the middle of the spring, what need would a channeler, trained not to feel hot or cold, have of a "fur-lined velvet cloak" unless he were coming from a place that was still quite cold at that time of year (wearing the local fashions, right. . .Saldeans have a huge fur trade, too!).

 

We already know from multiple character's accounts that the springs in the borderlands can resemble something more like the dead of winter in lands further south.  This indicates to me that he has some sort of base of operations in that region (though places in the far north of Seanchan and Shara would also experience this, I just don't like the idea that Demandred is there).

 

I think this little fact lends a bit more credence to the idea that Demandred has influence among the Borderlanders, which also might explain them leaving their posts guarding the blight in the first place - talk about following the Dark One's orders and creating chaos!

[Mr Ares]

Demandred is described as reflexively pulling his "fur-lined velvet cloak closer" against the cold of Shayol Ghul. But he went there ALREADY wearing a velvet cloak that was lined with fur. If it is somewhere near the middle of the spring, what need would a channeler, trained not to feel hot or cold, have of a "fur-lined velvet cloak" unless he were coming from a place that was still quite cold at that time of year (wearing the local fashions, right. . .Saldeans have a huge fur trade, too!).

Well, aside from needing it if coming from somewhere cold, you would wear it if going too somewhere cold. Personally, and maybe it is just me, I tend not to wander out in the freezing cold and then say, "by Jove, I should put on this coat, as I'm so bloody cold at the moment." I might, just might, put on the coat before going out. Now, if he knew he was going somewhere cold, he would put on the cloak before hand, paerhaps? And then draw it closer due to how cold it is?

[Paerish Swar]

That wasn't quite my point.  You should read the very first page of LoC again.  The wording of the entire sentence is pretty interesting.

 

Also, why would you put on a fur-lined velvet cloak to protect you from the cold you would experience for the mere two minutes it would take for you to walk into a burning hot, magma-filled cave, especially if you are a channeler who wouldn't have any discomfort from that two minutes of cold.

 

I think the cloak comments more on where he was coming from.

[Sentinel78]

It's a good observation.  At the very least, it's consistent with him being in the Borderlands.  Mr Ares is also correct that he could have simply donned it in preparation for Traveling to SG.  He also could have been anywhere else that's cold, like northern Seanchan (I know, unlikely), or even in the Borderlands for a different reason. 

 

Certainly not conclusive, but again, a good observation.

[JakeBarnes]

@WolfDragonFox:  That would surely make all of the Faile-haters feel vindicated. 

[jemron]

Wasn't it also winter in Seanchan at the time?  Just sayin'...

[Morsmordre]

Honestly, when I saw your observation, I thought of Seanchan right away and the place where Rand and Aviendha were. Good point, though. It looks exactly like a hint RJ would give ;)

[WolfDragonFox]

I like that observation, I had forgotten that.  I gotta say that it doesn't seem to me he would don a jacket because he was going to any specific place but that he was already there.  The reason I say this is because summons to the DO have a tendency of coming without warning and you have to depart immediately, so in following with that, he would have had the coat on already.  I also want to point out that there is no where in the book as far as I can recall that it says the Chosen know the trick of ignoring weather.  I may be wrong about that but I don't think so, and even if they did know it they wouldn't use it around regular people excepting of course Mesaana who is impersonating AS so she would have to do it.  So in fitting in he is donning a coat in one of the still cold countries.  Unfortunately, it doesn't prove weather or not it was Borderlands(Saldea is my bet for that) or Seanchan(since he was in league with Sem).  So its back to square one.

[Eht Slat Meit]

I'm inclined to think that Demandred's in Murandy for a few reasons, one of which boils down to Elaida's Foretelling that the Royal Line of Andor is the key to the Last Battle. I'd go on to add that I believe that the Last Battle will be centered in Andor, with a simultaneous press from the Blight and Murandy.

 

Looking at it through the Semi/Demand/Mesa alliance:

Semi - Seanchan

Demand - Murandy, Black Tower, Blightborder

Mesaana - White Tower

 

The ladies are fact, Demandred is speculation of course. But if you look at a map, that arrangement completely encircles Andor, who just happens to contain at least one of the keys to the Last Battle, perhaps the only key, depending on how you read the prophecy.

 

Repeatedly mentioned (here) is Demandred's use of proxies: This makes some sense in how closely associated he is with Taim, with people certain the two are one and the same despite denial by Jordan. Who are his proxies then? I'm guessing the obvious, one less obvious, and one completely uncertain.

 

Taim - The Black Tower

Rhoedran - Murandy

Someone - God only knows who in the Blightborder armies. Tenobia, maybe?

 

I've been listening to the audiobooks straight through and noticed something interesting when Elayne is discussing spies with Mistress Harfour - spies from Murandy have been found, specifically mentioned, and none from the Black Tower. This is excused by the BT "not having had time" to infiltrate, but (the reader knows) that both the Palace and the BT have DFs running around. Why wouldn't there be Tower spies in the Palace? Why wouldn't Taim be able to afford them? He's either Rand's man (heh) or it's redundant, I'm thinking.

 

Shara has been speculated, and often, but denied usually because of the diminished role it's played in the series. Who's to say it's either or? Give the Sharrans Travelling and blame their chaos on the west before the last battle, and watch all sorts of delicious channeie chaos making up for the BA-slaughter at the White Tower. Dumai's Wells, except in reverse.

 

Demandred's one of the last great Generals of his age, no? He certainly has the capacity for it.

[WolfDragonFox]

I'm inclined to think that Demandred's in Murandy for a few reasons, one of which boils down to Elaida's Foretelling that the Royal Line of Andor is the key to the Last Battle. I'd go on to add that I believe that the Last Battle will be centered in Andor, with a simultaneous press from the Blight and Murandy.

 

Looking at it through the Semi/Demand/Mesa alliance:

Semi - Seanchan

Demand - Murandy, Black Tower, Blightborder

Mesaana - White Tower

 

The ladies are fact, Demandred is speculation of course. But if you look at a map, that arrangement completely encircles Andor, who just happens to contain at least one of the keys to the Last Battle, perhaps the only key, depending on how you read the prophecy.

 

Repeatedly mentioned (here) is Demandred's use of proxies: This makes some sense in how closely associated he is with Taim, with people certain the two are one and the same despite denial by Jordan. Who are his proxies then? I'm guessing the obvious, one less obvious, and one completely uncertain.

 

Taim - The Black Tower

Rhoedran - Murandy

Someone - God only knows who in the Blightborder armies. Tenobia, maybe?

 

I've been listening to the audiobooks straight through and noticed something interesting when Elayne is discussing spies with Mistress Harfour - spies from Murandy have been found, specifically mentioned, and none from the Black Tower. This is excused by the BT "not having had time" to infiltrate, but (the reader knows) that both the Palace and the BT have DFs running around. Why wouldn't there be Tower spies in the Palace? Why wouldn't Taim be able to afford them? He's either Rand's man (heh) or it's redundant, I'm thinking.

 

Shara has been speculated, and often, but denied usually because of the diminished role it's played in the series. Who's to say it's either or? Give the Sharrans Travelling and blame their chaos on the west before the last battle, and watch all sorts of delicious channeie chaos making up for the BA-slaughter at the White Tower. Dumai's Wells, except in reverse.

 

Demandred's one of the last great Generals of his age, no? He certainly has the capacity for it.

 

I completely agree that he has hands in many pots...and that all of these places' actions of suspicion are his doing, but I am only looking for where he is setting up his personal retinue.  This is where I tend to lean to him leading an unawares nonDF Borderland army by way of Tenobia of Saldea.  She is the one who convinced everyone to go find Rand if i'm not mistaken.  You have the rising suspicion that Bashere may be another tool Dem has in place right next to Rand and it would perfect to have one of the Great 5 Generals to be a DF which works for Dem again.  I also think it would be so perfect that he was Rhoedran himself or in my mind manipulating him as a proxy to use Mats army to secure Dem's rule there as well.  And also of course the seemingly obvious black tower connection which Rand knows via Taims actions and Logain's confirmation that there is something up there but for now he considers the BT under his control so it is very possible that Andor is the going to be a site of part of the final battle but we know it eventually must move to Shayol Ghul so that is all speculation still.  However the Royal line of Andor being the key can easily be fitted to Rand since he is the son of an ex Andoran Queen.  Yes it could be Elayne, but also could be Gawyn too or even Morgase in that respect because maybe Gawyn finding out she is alive right before trying to kill Rand will be the key.  So that is up in the air.  I just have that feeling he is primarily hiding as a Saldean advisor to Tenobia.  All we can really do unless someone connects some seriously buried dots is RAFO.

[AoibheannSedai]

So, on a tangential note, this quote got me thinking:

He (Demandred) was a fool to bear that grudge.  To think he might have been on the other side -- might have become the Dragon himself, had things turned out differently.

Graendal's POV - TGS, page 37

 

What does it mean the be "the Dragon" if Demandred could have been the Dragon?  Is it an AoL title, how is it related to "Child of the Dragon"? or given Demandred's interest in Ilyena, is it related to her and her spouse?

 

So, is Rand the Dragon, or only the Dragon Reborn?  If Demandred really wants to be the Dragon, is it possible to take it away from Rand? 

[Eht Slat Meit]

What does it mean the be "the Dragon" if Demandred could have been the Dragon?  Is it an AoL title, how is it related to "Child of the Dragon"? or given Demandred's interest in Ilyena, is it related to her and her spouse?

 

So, is Rand the Dragon, or only the Dragon Reborn?  If Demandred really wants to be the Dragon, is it possible to take it away from Rand? 

 

I think the second quote is the point. There can be no other Dragon other than LTT and whoever he is reborn as, but Demandred has an excessive inferiority complex to the Dragon LTT. There's nothing, absolutely nothing, he can do to change that, he can never BE the Dragon, and there is no higher power other than the Creator or the DO, so grudging that is foolish.

[AoibheannSedai]

Eht, Just to throw some more tinder on the fire.  I found this quote from the extra chapter, Ravens, at the front of "From the Two Rivers."

Perin scratched at his head.  "Master al'Thor," he said slowly, "what does 'the Dragon' mean? If somebody's called the Lion, it means he's supposed to be like a lion.  But what's a dragon?" 

Egwene stared at him.  She had never thought of that.  Maybe Perrin was not as slow as he appeared. 

"I don't know," Rand's father answered simply.  "I don't think anyone does.  Maybe not even the Aes Sedai."

 

I hadn't even read this until I found it on Google books tonight, since I read EotW, rather than reading the split version. 

 

I thought that I saw one of the prophetic style quotes at the beginning or end of a book say "send us a Dragon," but now I can't find it. 

 

It struck me though, the difference between "a Dragon" and "The Dragon".  Along with Graendal's thoughts about Demandred being able to be "the Dragon" if things had turned out differently.

 

Can there be more than one Dragon? or is it an exclusive position?

[Tel Asra Nejoar]

i think graendals comment to do with demmy has more to do with just how closely matched he and LTT were. Was he not born a day or two after LTT, had almost, but not quite the same strength in the OP, was almost, but not quite as tall as LTT, etc. i think its to show similarities between the characters that have now become differences. also, should this not rule out bashere? unless people in the third age are significantly taller than in the AoL, demmys too tall, and hed have to spend his life dodging cads, with her paralis net

[Sharaman]

i think graendals comment to do with demmy has more to do with just how closely matched he and LTT were. Was he not born a day or two after LTT, had almost, but not quite the same strength in the OP, was almost, but not quite as tall as LTT, etc. i think its to show similarities between the characters that have now become differences. also, should this not rule out bashere? unless people in the third age are significantly taller than in the AoL, demmys too tall, and hed have to spend his life dodging cads, with her paralis net

 

Isn't there an RJ quote to the effect that Dem's cover character hasn't appeared onstage till CoT at least?

That cuts out Taim, Weiramon, Bashere (and Berelain, who would otherwise do quite nicely), etc.

 

[Tel Asra Nejoar]

only mentioned it as some people seem to think its the case for some reason. And as for what RJ says, as far as im concerned if it aint written, its not gospel. dont forget the series was only gonna be 3 books to begin :)

[Sab]

Bashere isn't a DF since if he was he could just give the seal to the DO's prison to the forsaken and there would be no need for people to break into his tent. There is already one high ranking general serving the DO, Werimon.

 

Being in Murandy puts Dem in the heart of where the most chaos is being created.  Near the Black tower, by the prophet, plus I think RJ was dropping a hint when he put in how Rhoedran is uniting Murandy, etc...  Dem is either posing as Rhoedran or controlling him.  Any of the forsaken could of used a little complulsion on Tenobia or the other borderlander rulers so they would send an army south. They wouldn't need to stay with the army just get in in motion and away from the blight.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

Rhoedrqn - small as hell army, getting whittled by Seanchan, trying to halt invasion of Seanchan... not sure Dem would be so keen on this. Not really powerful, not really an army... nah..................

[Crael123]

Rhoedrqn - small as hell army, getting whittled by Seanchan, trying to halt invasion of Seanchan... not sure Dem would be so keen on this. Not really powerful, not really an army... nah..................

 

That's the reason i didn't like this theory as well. it is plausible though so i am not dismissing it completely but i don't like it. i'm for the borderlands

[Sentinel78]

I mentioned this earlier, but there were vague references picked up by Juilin related to some powerful new ally/king of the Seanchan.  If this is Roedran, Demandred does not need to fight back the Seanchan, he just blindsides Rand alongside the Seanchan.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Rhoedrqn - small as hell army, getting whittled by Seanchan, trying to halt invasion of Seanchan... not sure Dem would be so keen on this. Not really powerful, not really an army... nah..................

 

Keep in mind that before Semirhage and Suroth got whacked, they were doing a credible job of working the Return in a way that this would never have happened. After all, Semi was allied with Demandred, no? Even now, Tuon has far greater concerns than conquering more territory.

[OHurley]

I mentioned this earlier, but there were vague references picked up by Juilin related to some powerful new ally/king of the Seanchan.  If this is Roedran, Demandred does not need to fight back the Seanchan, he just blindsides Rand alongside the Seanchan.

 

I believe Rhoedran is actually *fighting* the Seanchan, though. If they were allied, why kill perfectly good troops? This would go against everything the Seanchan stand for, them being the picture of effiency and all. Also, I don't think Rhoedran qualifies as much of a "powerful new ally/king". He's pretty anemic.

 

Personally,I think Demandred is either in the Borderlands or Shara. I certainly have no qualms about attributing the chaos down south to him, but I think his base of operations has to be either Saldaea, Kandor, Arafel, or Shara. No way Agelmar would get caught up with Demandred (he's got a magical arming cap +5 that wards against mental attacks... lol) and the Shienarans CERTAINLY wouldn't follow along with something that seemed to contrary to their sense of duty protecting against the Blight. We haven't heard much about Kandor and Arafel except that they exist, and we know only little more about Saldaea. Very very possible that Demmy is hiding out in one of these places.

 

I'd totally prefer Shara, though. It would be pretty damn cool to see an army of that magnitude come outta nowhere. If hostile to Rand, it would just make his inevitable victory that much more glorious.

[Eht Slat Meit]

I believe Rhoedran is actually *fighting* the Seanchan, though. If they were allied, why kill perfectly good troops? This would go against everything the Seanchan stand for, them being the picture of effiency and all. Also, I don't think Rhoedran qualifies as much of a "powerful new ally/king". He's pretty anemic.

 

Was there actual mention of this, though? After looking up encyclopedia-wot

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/geography/murandy/index.html

there's definitely references to the Seanchan being on that border so as to "prevent attacks from Andor or Murandy" but... Andor and Murandy aren't allies. Of course, it's entirely possible that the Seanchan aren't aware of that, but when you consider that their driving forces are a Forsaken and a DF, it suggests something else entirely. In fact, that conceivably makes for a good staging point for Rhoedran's forces to join up with the Seanchan and smash some Andorans.

 

I think it's interesting, and possibly relevant that the first mention of the false Dragonsworn in the books stem from Murandy.

[Sentinel78]

Seanchan armies being positioned to allegedly prevent thrusts out of Andor or Murandy is a presumption that Mat made based on the placement of the armies.  Nothing that I know of indicates that Murandy is actually fighting the Seanchan.

[Sharaman]

In KoD doesn't one of the Seanchan chaps say it himself ? Something like "We think this (Mat's raids) is important enough to pull out that army from the Pass (Forgotten the name) and risk being attacked by Andor or Murandy".