The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[Casabamelon]

The other thing to consider with the BUT is its comparison to Vin's earring. It needs to be significant in a way that's not obvious at first but makes logical sense once it's pointed out.

 

Things like the *greals don't really fit (caveat: IMHO) because their use is (excepting unknown ter*) fairly well known. Yeah, we don't know where the fat man is, and yeah whoever has it could get a boost of power at the right time to make a difference, but there's nothing really "mysterious" about any of it. No "ah-ha!" moment after the reveal.

 

I like the siswihoweveryouspellit for this reason. There are lots of societies in the Aiel, but none mark themselves like they do. Why? Is there more to it than just a cult?

[shadowkiller_001]

The other thing to consider with the BUT is its comparison to Vin's earring. It needs to be significant in a way that's not obvious at first but makes logical sense once it's pointed out.

 

Things like the *greals don't really fit (caveat: IMHO) because their use is (excepting unknown ter*) fairly well known. Yeah, we don't know where the fat man is, and yeah whoever has it could get a boost of power at the right time to make a difference, but there's nothing really "mysterious" about any of it. No "ah-ha!" moment after the reveal.

 

I like the siswihoweveryouspellit for this reason. There are lots of societies in the Aiel, but none mark themselves like they do. Why? Is there more to it than just a cult?

 

I agree with you that it does fit all of Brandon's requirements very very well. But I still feel comfortable with my understanding of the headbands and the siswai'.

I just think they are devoting themselves to the Dragon the way many Aiel seem to devote themselves to societies. Just can't see how this would be the BUT.

 

But it does fit Brandon's remarks really well.

[rollthedice]

Could the "Mistborn" connection be that it was the members of "His" army?  Meaning just as in the final Mistborn book you learn that his "Men" can burn metal, and in the last, they can burn the metal of time and consequence.  And in the end of our adventure,  Rands Chosen few can either channel or "Sing".

 

I know it's kind of out there, but anything is possible.

[DemandredFO]

you beat me to it rollthedice and Rand does quip to Taim what you don't think I'm as good a teacher as you.  Channeling Aiel would be a twist, considering Shaitan probably has a few surprises that we haven't.  Well 8 months or so to find out who's right.

[mossman87]

I could see the Siswai'aman if we weren't told who they were and why they made themselves the Spear of the Dragon.  If they just appeared wearing headbands and nothing was ever mentioned or explained yeah that'd make sense to me.  But that may just be me not wanting to go down the slippery slope of questioning every single thing we've been told, I'd go crazy.

[seasnake]

The Siswai'aman actually fits the facts really well.  It means spears of the dragon, but why?  Why did they choose that name, and why do people join, or HOW do they qualify to be one?  Perhaps they can treesing, or maybe they can channel, or who knows?  Maybe they're Demandred's troops, sworn to follow the dragon and protect him until it's time to turn on the Light (execute order 66).

 

I agree that the idea that they're jealous of the maidens is too simple. 

 

Good catch, I think this may be the unnoticed but big thing that's been going on but not really questioned.  I have no idea what it means, but it certainly is the best fit of any other theory in my mind.

[mossman87]

The Siswai'aman actually fits the facts really well.  It means spears of the dragon, but why?  Why did they choose that name, and why do people join, or HOW do they qualify to be one?  Perhaps they can treesing, or maybe they can channel, or who knows?  Maybe they're Demandred's troops, sworn to follow the dragon and protect him until it's time to turn on the Light (execute order 66).

 

I agree that the idea that they're jealous of the maidens is too simple.   

 

Good catch, I think this may be the unnoticed but big thing that's been going on but not really questioned.  I have no idea what it means, but it certainly is the best fit of any other theory in my mind.

TFoH,Ch46  - After the battle at the city of Cairhien, Rand notes many Aiel  spears and gai'shain  wearing scarlet headbands with the Aes Sedai symbol on it. Aviendha  says they are siswai'aman = the spear of the Dragon. They believe serving Rand expiates their sins in failing the Aes Sedai.

 

Sounds good to me.

[Sharaman]

Siswaiaman : Too may problems here to postulate they're an army of secret male Aiel channelers.

Several reasons why rand has little or nothing to do with them.

1) Between Carhein and Dumai's Wells, Rand according to his own PoV, was puzzled by their existence and by the reluctance of the Aiel to explain them

2) The Siswai didn't channel at Dumai's Wells when any such ability would have been extremely useful to rescue their liege. (Perrin noted or rather smelled, their jealousy versus the Maidens)

3) Rand's life has been mapped day to day by the books since Dumai's Wells and he has had zero interaction with the siswai. He hasn't had time to teach them anything. 

 

Apart from this, consider numbers

The siswai, if they were channelers, would have to be mostly learners, rather than sparkers. Given that there were around 500 channeling Wise Ones / clan -we can assume that there would be around the same number of guys - say 5-6K male Aiel channellers. 

The Black Tower has garnered around 1,000 learners-sparkers across the whole West of the Dragonwall in less than two years. That's with Taim and many other Ashaman Travelling out and testing across every village.

The siswai number several 1000s. So yes, the numbers fit with the potential number of Aiel male channelers.

But who's been finding them, let alone training them?

Rand certainly hasn't, and you'd need large teams of testers to do so. 

 

[Tel Asra Nejoar]

i could understand the whole siswai'aman channeling-singing etc if we saw any of them doing it. channeling? really? aiel men believe they have been chosen to fight the dark one if they start showing the signs, and run off to the blight in an attempt to do so. Singing? i think i would actually burn my books if this was the B©UT for its lameness. it is possible theyll sing. for the dead like all aiel men. there purpose was in saving rand from the tower AS in lord of chaos, not bring about a new age of peace and love and... enough of this, im a hippy, and even im a bit sick of the hippy c**p people are spouting.

 

I just think they are devoting themselves to the Dragon the way many Aiel seem to devote themselves to societies. Just can't see how this would be the BUT.

 

But it does fit Brandon's remarks really well.

All the societies wear a different cut of cadin'sor to differentiate between them, its just not as obvious to a wetlander as a bright red headband. it seems to me that the scarf is to help reinforce the "under this sign", "tower bending knee to this symbol" thing going on in  LoC

[JakeBarnes]

 

You missed the point. Its not about demandred at all. Its about the Dark one and its plans. None has even questioned what the dark one is behind. And the hint we get is that the DA has been planning almost everything.

 

No.  I got your point.  My point is: The whole section with Demandred getting orders from the DO (Not DA), which include 'Let The LORD OF CHAOS rule', are very easily linked to a specific book.  Why would Brandon not be able to say with certainty that the BUT happened in Lord of Chaos if it relates to his plans and instructions?  Step 1 is the title of the damn book.

 

I do agree that the DO's plans are a puzzle that makes me salivate with anticipation, but not the BUT.

 

 

[lammbo]

In the quote, it seems that he's about to say that it is mentioned in "all the books", but then he remembers that it isn't in one or two of the books after 4-6.

 

Perrin is absent from book 5, but IS in every book after that, so it's unlikely that it has to do with him.

So is Rand.

Mat is missing from PoD, since the house fell on him in CoS.  It might (read: throwaway theory) have to do with Mat visiting the Finn again for the rescue, HOW the finn got his memories, and what happens when someone visits the Finn more than once.

Egwene is in EVERY book

Along with Elayne

And Nynaeve

And the rest of the SAS (Siuan, Leane, etc.)

 

Anyone else have a relatively major character who is missing from a book after 6?

 

Actually, this post made me start thinking about something.  I'm not sure if this has anything to do with tBUT, but it sure made me start thinking an awful lot about the finns, Rhuidian, Matt and the twisted doorframe T'A timeline.  This is still a half-baked idea but I wanted to throw it out there for discussion now rather than wait until I can do some timeline research.

 

Most of Matt's memories are from soldiers of some time ago (Manetheren, etc.) so does that mean the T'A doorway was accessible to these (sometimes common) soldiers during that time period to visit the Finns?  If so, how did the door get to Rhuidian and when did it get there?  As far as we know, all of the *angreal present in Rhuidian are from just after the breaking, when the Aiel carried them there.  The events Matt 'remembers' are from what age?  After the breaking for sure since Mantheren was destroyed in 1200 AB.  I feel certain it would have been mentioned if he had any memories at all from the AoL.

 

As far as the tBUT goes:  THAT doorway (now destroyed) and those associated Finns fit the first mentioned in 4-6 and the associated Finns are mentioned repeatedly in most of the books that follow.  Matt's constantly thinking about the memories and how he can remember dying so many times and I remember him thinking about it at least once:  how do they get the memories from a person after they've been there since they certainly didn't go to finnland after they were dead.  We're pretty sure that in ToM, Matt is going to once again come face to face with these finns to rescue Mo. Matt is supposedly going to do the whole half the light of the world to save the world (give up an eye) thing.  Maybe that also has something to do with the finns.

 

As I said, only the start of a thought, but maybe it will be very important to upcoming events. Flame on!

 

 

[Aquarius]

As I said, only the start of a thought, but maybe it will be very important to upcoming events. Flame on!

That's very interesting.

 

- We usually belive that those memories come from people who have visited the Finns. Let's take that for granted.

--> Why should it be mandatory for all those people to have visited the Finns through THAT gateway. Couldn't they have entered the Tower from another point ?

 

- Let's say they MUST have met the Finns through the door frame Ter'Angreal :  We know that the Dashain (sp?) Aiel have left the Aes Sedai shortly after the sealing of the DO's prison and that they wandered. Do we know when the 2 splits have occured ? Split between those who became Tinkers and those who became Aiel, first. And then split between the Jenn Aiel who went to Ruidhin with the things the Aes Sedai gave them and the other Aiel clans. If the death of the Jenn Aiel, "vanishing" of Rhuidin was late enough, can we imagine that great generals came to Rhuidin, when there still were Jenn Aiels and passed through the Doorframe ? Or did the great generals just happe to meet the traveling Aiels before they settled in Rhuidin and went through the doorway?

 

That's a little too much for me.

[lammbo]

As I said, only the start of a thought, but maybe it will be very important to upcoming events. Flame on!

That's very interesting.

 

- We usually belive that those memories come from people who have visited the Finns. Let's take that for granted.

--> Why should it be mandatory for all those people to have visited the Finns through THAT gateway. Couldn't they have entered the Tower from another point ?

Very true, maybe there were other doorways that were made around the time of the 'agreement' so more people could gain access to the finns.  Although many *angreal were lost during the breaking, there is almost an assumed pattern of unique T'A.

 

- Let's say they MUST have met the Finns through the door frame Ter'Angreal :  We know that the Dashain (sp?) Aiel have left the Aes Sedai shortly after the sealing of the DO's prison and that they wandered. Do we know when the 2 splits have occured ? Split between those who became Tinkers and those who became Aiel, first. And then split between the Jenn Aiel who went to Ruidhin with the things the Aes Sedai gave them and the other Aiel clans. If the death of the Jenn Aiel, "vanishing" of Rhuidin was late enough, can we imagine that great generals came to Rhuidin, when there still were Jenn Aiels and passed through the Doorframe ? Or did the great generals just happe to meet the traveling Aiels before they settled in Rhuidin and went through the doorway?

 

That's a little too much for me.

But assuming that is (was) the only T'A made to access those finns, it would have had to be out and about in the world at large for almost 1200 years.  Do we really think there were still TRUE descendants of the Da'Shain Aiel wandering around for that long (AB) carrying that monstrosity and they somehow eventually found their way to Rhuidean to drop it off?

[DemandredFO]

Sharaman, you forgot the most important thing about Rand, he is Taveren, maybe he and siswiaman both don't know why they're drawn together, they just are.  I don't think Rand knows and I'm pretty sure the Aiel don't.  I doubt they're actively channeling or we would know.  Most importantly, why are gaishin wearing them; gaishin wear only white.  I also doubt there are any sparkers or we would have heard by now.  Again, neither party may know; Rand may not know the siswi can channel and the siswi may just know they're drawn to Rand for reasons unknown.  8 months and counting to find out who's right

 

On the post about the finns, I think I remembers a post where it said that the ToG was how the finns got the memories, adventurers that went in.  I could be mistaken but I think I remember correctly.

[Aquarius]

Very true, maybe there were other doorways that were made around the time of the 'agreement' so more people could gain access to the finns.  Although many *angreal were lost during the breaking, there is almost an assumed pattern of unique T'A.

I was thinking about entering via the actual Tower of Genji ... or maybe going to the "other" finns through the Door in Tear is enough. Who knows ?

But assuming that is (was) the only T'A made to access those finns, it would have had to be out and about in the world at large for almost 1200 years.  Do we really think there were still TRUE descendants of the Da'Shain Aiel wandering around for that long (AB) carrying that monstrosity and they somehow eventually found their way to Rhuidean to drop it off?

Actually yes. All what we've heard of the Jenn Aiel seems to tell us this. Rhuidean is the territory of the Jenn Clan, the Clan that is no more. Through the eyes of Rand's ancestors, we see the clash between those who keep moving with the T'A and those who would discard them. But I don't remember seeing the settling in Rhuidean though. That puzzles me...

[Netizen]

How about the bleakness?

 

Started in books 4-6, mentioned afterwards. It's definitely something that has "been going on", seems insignificant but could have big ramifications in future.

 

Maybe BS was writing the bit where all the Aiel suddenly chucked their spears down and sodded off?

[lammbo]

On the post about the finns, I think I remembers a post where it said that the ToG was how the finns got the memories, adventurers that went in.  I could be mistaken but I think I remember correctly.

 

But if it's SOOOOO dangerous to go into finnland through the ToG, (can't remember exactly what Brigitte said) we would also have to assume that a LOT of those soldiers/generals also got back out again since Matt remembers dying as so many of them.  I would almost take this as enough just on speculation that they must not have entered through ToG.

 

Actually yes. All what we've heard of the Jenn Aiel seems to tell us this. Rhuidean is the territory of the Jenn Clan, the Clan that is no more. Through the eyes of Rand's ancestors, we see the clash between those who keep moving with the T'A and those who would discard them. But I don't remember seeing the settling in Rhuidean though. That puzzles me...

As for timeline, I have a little more info now from http://www.sevenspokes.com/chronology/2nd.html

A group of Da'shain Aiel break off in order to search for the Old Song and reaffirm their belief in the Way of the Leaf. They are later known as the Tuatha'an, the Lost Ones. [TWORJTWOT-181 / TSR-H-296]

 

Some of the Da'shain Aiel abandon the Way of the Leaf in order to defend themselves and their families against attackers. These Aiel continue to follow the main group, later referred to as the Jenn Aiel, and provide it with protection. [TWORJTWOT-181 / TSR-H-291]

 

The Breaking ends after the death of the last male Aes Sedai. Various sources indicate that the length of the Breaking ranged from 239 to 344 years.

 

On the timeline for the next age, at around 1200 AB, we see the fall of Mantheren. Close to the end of the range for Matt's borrowed memories.

 

[DemandredFO]

No if I remember correctly his memories run from 500 yrs before the fall of Manetheran to the last battle of Artur Hawkwing's rise.

[lammbo]

No if I remember correctly his memories run from 500 yrs before the fall of Manetheran to the last battle of Artur Hawkwing's rise.

 

You are correct sir, ty very much.  AB lasted until 1350, this age was followed by the Free Years (FY) and Hawkwing died in 994 FY, making the total of years 2344 (since the breaking) that the descendants of the Da'shain Aiel would have had to cart this thing around and allow soldiers (or possibly anyone) to use it before they eventually found the waste and dumped it in Rhuidean.

[chuckievi]

No if I remember correctly his memories run from 500 yrs before the fall of Manetheran to the last battle of Artur Hawkwing's rise.

 

You are correct sir, ty very much.  AB lasted until 1350, this age was followed by the Free Years (FY) and Hawkwing died in 994 FY, making the total of years 2344 (since the breaking) that the descendants of the Da'shain Aiel would have had to cart this thing around and allow soldiers (or possibly anyone) to use it before they eventually found the waste and dumped it in Rhuidean.

 

Sure, but we know of 2 doors, so it stands to reason that there could have been more.  Either way the door in Tear was out and about, so they could have used it.

[lammbo]

Sure, but we know of 2 doors, so it stands to reason that there could have been more.  Either way the door in Tear was out and about, so they could have used it.

 

Correct, except one thing.  One goes to Aelfinn (snakes - answers questions) and the other to Eelfinn (foxes - grant wishes).  That obviously does not preclude that there may have been more than 1 T'A made to enter each realm.  However, I would like to point out that if I were AS and making these T'A, and KNEW the finns can be so dangerous that an agreement had to be made to assure safe passage of visitors, I would not make more than 1 for each.  We have no sure way of knowing unfortunately, so like most other posts here, is speculation based on logical thought progression.

[dumont76]

The agreement (for/with the Finns) is important to remember as well.  The memories of these generals and captains that they (Finns)gave Mat could have been the "price paid" by these commanders who went in with the knowledge of the agreement, thus having the ability to pass in and out unscathed...

 

Also, in tFoH, Egwene gives us a brief flash of dreams pertaining to Mat and Thom. Thom pulling Moiraine's forehead jewel out of fire and Mat covered in blood...if we can link the previous posts started by Kalefka Palazzo with any of this, we may have something here  :P

[Crael123]

i am reading TSR and i found a part where moirane says she knows thom will survive tarabon and they will see each other again, and if he too nyn and elayne to tanchico than she will tell him the identities of the red sisters that gentled his nephew, and who ordered them the next time she sees him. did they ever see each other again? and if not, we will get an unforeseen treat and mayb thom is in for redemption

[Dreamwalker]

The agreement (for/with the Finns) is important to remember as well.  The memories of these generals and captains that they (Finns)gave Mat could have been the "price paid" by these commanders who went in with the knowledge of the agreement, thus having the ability to pass in and out unscathed...

 

Also, in tFoH, Egwene gives us a brief flash of dreams pertaining to Mat and Thom. Thom pulling Moiraine's forehead jewel out of fire and Mat covered in blood...if we can link the previous posts started by Kalefka Palazzo with any of this, we may have something here  :P

 

Specifically there is blood running down Mat's face but Egwene can't see where he is wounded because his hat is covering a lot of his face. I think it has to be from the loss of his eye (from Min's vision of his eye on a balance scale and Egwene's dream of him placing his eye on a scale)

[JakeBarnes]

From the list of things ruled out: 

 

**A.R. to the Tower of Ghenjei, the doorway ter’angreal, the Finn’s, or prophecies or knowledge relating to either.

 

So, unless you want to play semantics, it has NOTHING to do with the Finns, or the tower.