The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[bdholsin]

Hello all.  Been lurking for a while and finally decided to chime in on the BUT.

 

Going by memory I seem to recall that Rand's sickness when he seizes saidin started somewhere between books 4 and 6 when he used Callandor for the first time in Tear (by all means correct me if I'm wrong). 

 

Could the BUT be that the flaw in Callandor has affected Rand's ability to seize saidin resulting in a physical reaction for him...i.e. throwing up. 

 

I theorize that he'll need to use Callandor with two AS to "correct" what is wrong with him.

 

Just my thoughts...don't hesitate to shoot this theory down if my recollection of timing is wrong.

[Aquarius]

Unless I'm mistaken, the sickness (it has ben debated a LOT) started after the end of aCoS when Moridin and Rand cross their Balefire streams.

 

The flaw in Callandor seems to be something totally different (also severely debated here)

[StefanR]

^^^ Agreed, and since Moridin seems to suffer some of the same symptoms, I'd bet that it's connected

[rollthedice]

Has anyone every determined what it was that Herid Fel was working on that a Gholam would be sent to kill him?

 

Or why Moiraine Damodred ever had to enter Rhuidean. 

 

Is one of these the secret?

[Crael123]

Has anyone every determined what it was that Herid Fel was working on that a Gholam would be sent to kill him?

 

Or why Moiraine Damodred ever had to enter Rhuidean. 

 

Is one of these the secret?

 

iwas curious if it was fel's work as well

[porus]

Has anyone every determined what it was that Herid Fel was working on that a Gholam would be sent to kill him?

 

Or why Moiraine Damodred ever had to enter Rhuidean. 

 

Is one of these the secret?

 

Moraine went to Rhuidean because the Wise One's blabbed that they had dreamed of Moraine going to Rhuidean. Self-fulfilling prophecy etc...

 

Herid Fel was working on answering the question Rand asked him to solve: "Why do I need to break the seals to the DO's prison, and what do I do after that." Herid Fel was killed after his cryptic message to Rand about "clearing the rubble." I think most people assume that Herid Fel discovered, or was close to discovering how to seal the DO's prison, and for this he was killed.

 

Min is currently making progress on deciphering Herid Fel's logic on this subject.

[Dreamwalker]

Has anyone every determined what it was that Herid Fel was working on that a Gholam would be sent to kill him?

 

Or why Moiraine Damodred ever had to enter Rhuidean.  

 

Is one of these the secret?

 

Moraine went to Rhuidean because the Wise One's blabbed that they had dreamed of Moraine going to Rhuidean. Self-fulfilling prophecy etc...

 

Also looking at it from a Pattern level, she needed to go to Rhuidean so she would see what to do at the end of tFoH so that she could save Rand. We know from what she says in the letter that otherwise he would either have died or become Lanfear's pet, either of which would have been game over for the Light. So the Wise Ones' slip may have been caused by a nudge from the wheel (or a ta'veren nudge) to set it up.

[Dreamwalker]

Taim using Sammaels mark

 

"the cart in TDR that captures Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene, and the back of Sammael's chair in TAR"

 

on top of somebody posing as a forsaken seem to point at Taim

 

 

 

 

The cart in tDR is said to have the "high lord Samon's" sigil on it, which is Be'lal. This means that Sammael, Be'lal, and Taim have all used it. I was starting to think it might just be a symbol that the male Forsaken used, perhaps in the War of Power, but I don't know if I've got support for that.

[rollthedice]

I still find it odd that The Wise Ones would have a Cairhien born AS enter Rhuidean.

 

So, did she go to the place Rand went, or Matt?  Seeing how she came back naked, and they did not mention any items she was carrying I would venture to say she went where Rand did.  But who knows.

[lammbo]

I still find it odd that The Wise Ones would have a Cairhien born AS enter Rhuidean.

 

So, did she go to the place Rand went, or Matt?  Seeing how she came back naked, and they did not mention any items she was carrying I would venture to say she went where Rand did.  But who knows.

She went to pass through the 3 arch T'A that wise one apprentices must go through.  She went naked and came back naked, as is Aiel custom (same as the test for accepted).  The T'A in Rhuidian is different than the T'A used by the WT in that it shows you a glimpse of all possible futures, some of which is retained by the one passing through.  This allows the WO's to have some indication of the paths they should take in their lives.  So Mo knew about the fight w/ Lanfear just as Avi knew she would bed Rand.

 

Edit:  Rand went to go through the glass columns and Matt went because the finns told him he must go or die.  When Matt got there, he saw the other twisted stone doorway and went through to see the other finns (I always get the finns mixed up so I'm sticking with finns).

[Tragon]

Deleted.

[NetSlider]

^^^ Agreed, and since Moridin seems to suffer some of the same symptoms, I'd bet that it's connected

 

I have to really disagree on this one. I've been seeing the whole "Moridin also gets sickness" for awhile a in meantime I've never saw anything to indicate that. There is  a link between him and Rand (the whole hand numbness and all) but the "sickness" has not been effecting Moridin in any way that we saw. I might be wrong, but until we see it I don't see how Moridin gets the "sickness".

[Dreamwalker]

^^^ Agreed, and since Moridin seems to suffer some of the same symptoms, I'd bet that it's connected

 

I have to really disagree on this one. I've been seeing the whole "Moridin also gets sickness" for awhile a in meantime I've never saw anything to indicate that. There is  a link between him and Rand (the whole hand numbness and all) but the "sickness" has not been effecting Moridin in any way that we saw. I might be wrong, but until we see it I don't see how Moridin gets the "sickness".

 

Moridin getting the sickness - I'm not sure of yet. But we do see in tGS that his hand hurts and he is very angry about Rand losing his hand. This could be an indication that the channeling sickness could carry over as well (but that might not be that big a deal since Moridin's been using the TP pretty exclusively, not saidin). Then again, it might not, but I think that is something people could use to support the idea.

[Sharaman]

^^^ Agreed, and since Moridin seems to suffer some of the same symptoms, I'd bet that it's connected

 

I have to really disagree on this one. I've been seeing the whole "Moridin also gets sickness" for awhile a in meantime I've never saw anything to indicate that. There is  a link between him and Rand (the whole hand numbness and all) but the "sickness" has not been effecting Moridin in any way that we saw. I might be wrong, but until we see it I don't see how Moridin gets the "sickness".

 

Moridin getting the sickness - I'm not sure of yet. But we do see in tGS that his hand hurts and he is very angry about Rand losing his hand. This could be an indication that the channeling sickness could carry over as well (but that might not be that big a deal since Moridin's been using the TP pretty exclusively, not saidin). Then again, it might not, but I think that is something people could use to support the idea.

 

Moridin shows no signs of sickness in his PoV while channeling TP in TPoD when he's watching Avi weave/unweave her Gate in the Palace. That's well after the balefire cross.

Again he fries a rat casually in WH using TP when he's giving the Chosen their orders about stopping the cleansing.

No sign of sickness.

The hand seems to hurt, yes.

But he can flex the fingers.

[chuckievi]

^^^ Agreed, and since Moridin seems to suffer some of the same symptoms, I'd bet that it's connected

 

I have to really disagree on this one. I've been seeing the whole "Moridin also gets sickness" for awhile a in meantime I've never saw anything to indicate that. There is  a link between him and Rand (the whole hand numbness and all) but the "sickness" has not been effecting Moridin in any way that we saw. I might be wrong, but until we see it I don't see how Moridin gets the "sickness".

 

Moridin getting the sickness - I'm not sure of yet. But we do see in tGS that his hand hurts and he is very angry about Rand losing his hand. This could be an indication that the channeling sickness could carry over as well (but that might not be that big a deal since Moridin's been using the TP pretty exclusively, not saidin). Then again, it might not, but I think that is something people could use to support the idea.

 

Moridin shows no signs of sickness in his PoV while channeling TP in TPoD when he's watching Avi weave/unweave her Gate in the Palace. That's well after the balefire cross.

Again he fries a rat casually in WH using TP when he's giving the Chosen their orders about stopping the cleansing.

No sign of sickness.

The hand seems to hurt, yes.

But he can flex the fingers.

 

I thought it was stated that he was using the TP because the OP was giving him the same sickness Rand had.

[Sharaman]

^^^ Agreed, and since Moridin seems to suffer some of the same symptoms, I'd bet that it's connected

 

I have to really disagree on this one. I've been seeing the whole "Moridin also gets sickness" for awhile a in meantime I've never saw anything to indicate that. There is  a link between him and Rand (the whole hand numbness and all) but the "sickness" has not been effecting Moridin in any way that we saw. I might be wrong, but until we see it I don't see how Moridin gets the "sickness".

 

Moridin getting the sickness - I'm not sure of yet. But we do see in tGS that his hand hurts and he is very angry about Rand losing his hand. This could be an indication that the channeling sickness could carry over as well (but that might not be that big a deal since Moridin's been using the TP pretty exclusively, not saidin). Then again, it might not, but I think that is something people could use to support the idea.

 

Moridin shows no signs of sickness in his PoV while channeling TP in TPoD when he's watching Avi weave/unweave her Gate in the Palace. That's well after the balefire cross.

Again he fries a rat casually in WH using TP when he's giving the Chosen their orders about stopping the cleansing.

No sign of sickness.

The hand seems to hurt, yes.

But he can flex the fingers.

 

I thought it was stated that he was using the TP because the OP was giving him the same sickness Rand had.

 

No such mention that I can remember. He's just addicted to TP.

[yoniy0]

Well, the sickness only strikes Rand when he either embraces or releases the Source, so the WH reference isn't relevant (I wouldn't go into that meeting without first embracing the TP). And while TPoD is indeed after that SL incident, Rand only mentions the symptoms he's noticed at the beginning of it, and they were still relatively light.

[Dreamwalker]

^^^ Agreed, and since Moridin seems to suffer some of the same symptoms, I'd bet that it's connected

 

I have to really disagree on this one. I've been seeing the whole "Moridin also gets sickness" for awhile a in meantime I've never saw anything to indicate that. There is  a link between him and Rand (the whole hand numbness and all) but the "sickness" has not been effecting Moridin in any way that we saw. I might be wrong, but until we see it I don't see how Moridin gets the "sickness".

 

Moridin getting the sickness - I'm not sure of yet. But we do see in tGS that his hand hurts and he is very angry about Rand losing his hand. This could be an indication that the channeling sickness could carry over as well (but that might not be that big a deal since Moridin's been using the TP pretty exclusively, not saidin). Then again, it might not, but I think that is something people could use to support the idea.

 

Moridin shows no signs of sickness in his PoV while channeling TP in TPoD when he's watching Avi weave/unweave her Gate in the Palace. That's well after the balefire cross.

Again he fries a rat casually in WH using TP when he's giving the Chosen their orders about stopping the cleansing.

No sign of sickness.

The hand seems to hurt, yes.

But he can flex the fingers.

 

Wasn't saying he'd have the sickness when using the TP, just that he might have it using the OP - but it is hard to know for sure since he uses saidin so rarely.

[firstfishman]

I dont think he has used saidin since the balefire cross. He uses the TP exclusively

[Abel Cain]

This could be a stretch but the BIG thing which began somewhere in books 4-6 and has been ongoing but rarely mentioned could be the ongoing recruiting and training of the Legion of the Dragon. If this has been going on since book 5 or 6, how many are there? Thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands? And Mat coming to Camelyn with the new crank for crossbows? Imagine of force of that size showing on a battlefield!

 

Just a thought! Flame away!

[bronnt]

This could be a stretch but the BIG thing which began somewhere in books 4-6 and has been ongoing but rarely mentioned could be the ongoing recruiting and training of the Legion of the Dragon. If this has been going on since book 5 or 6, how many are there? Thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands? And Mat coming to Camelyn with the new crank for crossbows? Imagine of force of that size showing on a battlefield!

 

Just a thought! Flame away!

 

It's a new, different thought.  The issue is that it doesn't seem that important.  So Rand's private army turns into a really, really big private army...so what?  All the Aiel, the army he took from Arad Doman, the army he's raising in Tear, all the armsmen he took from Cairhien, plus there's the anticipation reconciliation with the Borderlander army at Far Madding.  Another few thousand men might be important to Rand, but not as a plot device.

[firstfishman]

Maybe Deamondred is leading the Legion of the Dragon.

[Crossroad]

Maybe Deamondred is leading the Legion of the Dragon.

I'm thinking more along the lines of Dreadlords created from the Male Aiel channellers. There would be thousands espeacially if the DO takes there soles at the point of death.  Maybe these men are made and offer they can't refuse.  That is why Deamondred is not with any of the armies that are at present on the land because the DO has and army ready for him.

[Sharaman]

Demandred says "My rule is secure" which would seem redundant if he was appointed GOC of n army of DFs.

How about Seanchan Seekers? The chap, who appears in Tanchico during TSR, and then again in WH and CoT and stampedes first Bethamin and Egeanin and then Furyk Karede into important actions with his complex conspiracy theory?

 

[Tragon]

Alright so here is my take on the BUT, after reading 4-6 I got stuck on one thing. I actually read this bit right after I had been reading in this thread. Just for reference im gonna start with a quote of the BUT clues (posted by some guy above).

 

"The Brandon conversation that started this thread (originally quoted by Luckers.)

 

1. Question: You had a quote that we all talked about just recently, that there is a small detail with this secret thing. There were two quotes we put together where you told somebody from Chicago where you say this detail first comes out between books 4-6. Is that verified?

 

1. Answer: It’s been going for a long time. Somewhere in four and six the first hints of it are mentioned.

 

2. Question: But that’s not the only time it’s ever mentioned?

 

2. Answer: It’s not the only time it’s ever mentioned. It is…hints about this hidden thing appear in pretty much…in several of the books. It first, somewhere in one of those three is the beginning of where it shows up. The first hint that you get. […] I mean, it’s a small thing that means something large, that sort of thing…and you guys are very good at finding things and I’m not going to say whether you hit it or not.

 

•  I asked a follow up question about the big clue in books 4-6, asking if the clue became more relevant due to events in the later books, and he said that it didn't, and that it's something we should have picked up on when it appeared. He also issued a caveat (that is basically common sense) that it is possible someone discussed this issue at some point on one of the boards and that he didn't see that, but that he has never seen it raised in his lurkings, and that this issue is more important than who killed you-know-who.

•  Brandon is concerned about the HCFF's digging and digging for the surprise in books 4-6 and ruining it for TOM. Also, he stated he never read anyone discussing it but it is possible someone has. Also, it is some puzzle that should have been looked at when it was first revealed. It's bigger than who killed Asmodean, according to Brandon. [Luckers Note: This seems to confirm that it will be revealed in ToM]"

 

The part that I got stuck on, in Lord of Chaos prologue, is this:

 

"He was never sure how much the Great Lord knew of the world."  Demandreds throughts about DA.

 

"Still Demandred kept silent, stood there studying them. No, not Graendal. Semirhage and her (Mesaana). And when he did speak, half to himself, it was to they two. "When I think where you two have placed yourselves, I wonder. How much has the Great Lord known, for how long? How much of what has happened has been at his design all along?" There was no answer to that. Finally, he said, "You want to know what the Great Lord told me? Very well. But it stays here, held close. Since Sammael chose to stay away, he learns nothing. Nor do the others, whether alive or dead. The first part of the Great Lord’s message was simple. ‘Let the Lord of Chaos rule.’ His words, exact." The corners of his mouth twitched, as close to a smile as Mesaana had ever seen from him. Then he told them the rest. Mesaana found herself shivering and did not know whether she did so from excitement or fear. It could work; it could hand them everything. But it required luck, and gambling made her uncomfortable. Demandred was the gambler. He was right about one thing; Lews Therin had made his own luck as a mint made coin. In her opinion it seemed that so far Rand al’Thor did the same.Unless . . . Unless the Great Lord had a plan beyond the one he had revealed. And that frightened her more than any other possibility."

 

It doesn't seem like much, which is one of the reason why it fits. I have not seen anyone discussing this either, which also fits with what Sanderson said. And to get it right out of the way, its bigger than the "lord of chaos" order. That was just the first part, the rest was the real scary part...

 

Ok so what Im getting at is that we are given clues here that the Dark One have been planning something for a very long time. Demandred remark upon Mesaana and Semirhages placement and suspect that the Dark one has been planning to place them there a long time ago, with a purpose.

 

Some things that I can think of right now, that supports it: I think it was R.Jordan that answered a question about the prophecies when he basically said that they have been manipulated (changed over time). And that was why the Seanchan prophecy did not fit with the Randland. The prophecies will cause trouble, and already have, because they will push Rands Alliance and/or The White tower against the Seanchan.

We also know that Ishamael was free in periods to walk around. And that he manipulated events.

 

I do not have a clue what this big thing is, but I suspect that this excerpt from Lord of Chaos is what Sanderson refered to. The DA has been planing something large perhaps for thousand of years, or since the breaking. The events that has happend in the books, the Seanchan invasion, the white towers breaking etc was all planned. To what ends, who knows. All we know is that it has made it a LOT harder for the Light to get organized. Maybe that was the point or, very likely, it is even bigger. It is certainly bigger than who killed Asmodean...