The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[Dreamwalker]

Where is the 3rd avendasora (sp)? In Rand's viewing in Rhudian there is a part when he thinks that there only three saplings left. One is now in Rhudian. Second was given to Cahrien(sp). Where is the third one?

 

I always thought the tree given to Cairhien was not one of the original saplings, rather that it grew from a cutting taken from the tree in Rhuidean. The timing makes more sense this way because the Aiel did not give avendoraldera to Cairhien until 556 NE, a couple thousand years after the breaking. I think it likely that the chora tree in Rhuidean was the only sapling that made it.

[Sharaman]

Where is the 3rd avendasora (sp)? In Rand's viewing in Rhudian there is a part when he thinks that there only three saplings left. One is now in Rhudian. Second was given to Cahrien(sp). Where is the third one?

 

I always thought the tree given to Cairhien was not one of the original saplings, rather that it grew from a cutting taken from the tree in Rhuidean. The timing makes more sense this way because the Aiel did not give avendoraldera to Cairhien until 556 NE, a couple thousand years after the breaking. I think it likely that the chora tree in Rhuidean was the only sapling that made it.

In TGH, we learn that the Taraboners and Domani call themselves the people of the Tree or descended from the tree or some such.  Perhaps one of the saplings was planted in Almoth. But there's no clear reference.

[Dreamwalker]

Where is the 3rd avendasora (sp)? In Rand's viewing in Rhudian there is a part when he thinks that there only three saplings left. One is now in Rhudian. Second was given to Cahrien(sp). Where is the third one?

 

I always thought the tree given to Cairhien was not one of the original saplings, rather that it grew from a cutting taken from the tree in Rhuidean. The timing makes more sense this way because the Aiel did not give avendoraldera to Cairhien until 556 NE, a couple thousand years after the breaking. I think it likely that the chora tree in Rhuidean was the only sapling that made it.

In TGH, we learn that the Taraboners and Domani call themselves the people of the Tree or descended from the tree or some such.  Perhaps one of the saplings was planted in Almoth. But there's no clear reference.

 

Hmm, I'd forgotten that reference. Good catch.

[porus]

registered just to post my theory. I've read and read and I can't recall ever coming across this one, and I don't think it is excluded for being too closely connected to Moraine's letters or the Rhuidean stash. Hope I'm not being a fool, or regurgitating. Here goes:

 

In book 4, the WO's let slip in the tents that they dreamed of Moraine asking to travel to Rhuidean, and that this was crucial for team light. However, the WO's are horrified because in all their dreams it was Moraine who demanded to go to Rhuidean without any suggestion from the WO's. This slip of the tongue may have altered events in unforeseeable ways.

 

The hole in this theory is that the WO's have never worried about this specifically since, so it doesn't quite fit the "been mentioned repeatedly after books 4-6" criteria, but I think my theory may still be valid because the effects of Moraine's trip through the Rhuidean rings started a plotline that has still not been resolved, so in a way the origin's of Moraine's Rhuidean Rings Request has been implied numerous times.

[ErikTheBald]

I think it's the dissention amongst the Chosen/Forsaken.  That first crops up in book 4, when trollocs are sent to the Stone of Tear by one of the Forsaken and another band of Trollocs are sent to the stone of Tear to fight them.  In that battle Mat witnesses two Fades fighting, has his life saved by a band of trollocs killing that Fade about to kill him, and Rand himself has his life saved by a trolloc.

 

I'm almost positive we have a POV from Mesaana that she was ordered to send the second band of Trollocs.

 

We also know that Demandred is up to something that took place during book 6 but the exact nature of which has yet to be revealed.  It was, however, something he was awfully proud of.

 

So, who or what is behind the apparent dissension amongst the forsaken?

 

 

[DemandredFO]

I've been on here alot longer porus, compared to you who just registered but I can't ever remember the WO/Moiraine thing being mentioned and even if it's not correct at least it's new.  By the way, welcome to dragonmount

[Sharaman]

I think it's the dissention amongst the Chosen/Forsaken.  That first crops up in book 4, when trollocs are sent to the Stone of Tear by one of the Forsaken and another band of Trollocs are sent to the stone of Tear to fight them.  In that battle Mat witnesses two Fades fighting, has his life saved by a band of trollocs killing that Fade about to kill him, and Rand himself has his life saved by a trolloc.

 

I'm almost positive we have a POV from Mesaana that she was ordered to send the second band of Trollocs.

 

We also know that Demandred is up to something that took place during book 6 but the exact nature of which has yet to be revealed.  It was, however, something he was awfully proud of.

 

So, who or what is behind the apparent dissension amongst the forsaken?

 

The chosen have always been in conflict with each other. I think we were explicitly told about this in Book III but I can't be sure. GLoD likes them to snipe away.

(BTW, it was Semirhage who sent one set of trollocs, while Sammael sent the other lot.)

Dissension in the ranks of the Chosen has been discussed a lot however.

 

registered just to post my theory. I've read and read and I can't recall ever coming across this one, and I don't think it is excluded for being too closely connected to Moraine's letters or the Rhuidean stash. Hope I'm not being a fool, or regurgitating. Here goes:

 

In book 4, the WO's let slip in the tents that they dreamed of Moraine asking to travel to Rhuidean, and that this was crucial for team light. However, the WO's are horrified because in all their dreams it was Moraine who demanded to go to Rhuidean without any suggestion from the WO's. This slip of the tongue may have altered events in unforeseeable ways.

 

The hole in this theory is that the WO's have never worried about this specifically since, so it doesn't quite fit the "been mentioned repeatedly after books 4-6" criteria, but I think my theory may still be valid because the effects of Moraine's trip through the Rhuidean rings started a plotline that has still not been resolved, so in a way the origin's of Moraine's Rhuidean Rings Request has been implied numerous times.

 

Well, Moiraine should come back in the next book while Aviendha is also off to Rhuidean so if it's this, we may see a resolutuon- confirmation in ToM. It seems a new idea. Only thing is, I'm not sure how Brandon/ RJ would introduce an alternate path / alternate plot-line, based on what-if Moiraine had found some other trigger to go to Rhuidean. It could get cumbersome writing a scenario of "If Melaine hadn't blurted it out, Moiraine would have chatted about xyz with the WOs and eventually gone anyhow. But she'd have known something else ---." Anyway, have fun on DM!

 

[Crael123]

k i found this shocking we havnt talked about this yet. i may have gotten it this time. here it is

 

 

 

why did aran'gar want logain dead or stilled so bad? it was in LoC after she was introduced. i mean, until logain ditched the little tower, she was pushing REALLY hard for that. and we never were told WHY.

 

thoughts

[lillcheese]

Because Logain could tell the AS that there was a woman in camp channeling saidin.  It would have blown Halimagar's cover.

[bronnt]

Because Logain could tell the AS that there was a woman in camp channeling saidin.  It would have blown Halimagar's cover.

 

Got it in one.

[Bazarat]

 

In book 4, the WO's let slip in the tents that they dreamed of Moraine asking to travel to Rhuidean, and that this was crucial for team light. However, the WO's are horrified because in all their dreams it was Moraine who demanded to go to Rhuidean without any suggestion from the WO's. This slip of the tongue may have altered events in unforeseeable ways.

 

 

 

I always thought Moiraine saw how to win the last battle in the rings as well as a way to safely seal The Dark One's prison. Maybe with Melaine's slip this has changed or who knows, maybe the pattern foerced the issue with Rand being te'veren.

 

[Animontius]

Hope I'm not repeating anything. But this thread got me thinking about things that occurred in those books that are unresolved, so I'll add my two cents, while also admitting that I don't know if any of these have been discussed to death thereby voiding their relevance to this thread.

 

The first things I started thinking about were things to do with the aiel and Rhuidean. Like the tree of life, the circle of pillars and the 3-ring ter-angreal, which presumably anybody now has access to. Also the fact that Rand knows the song that the Tuatha'an are looking for since hearing it in the circle of pillars. Presumably the song could have some significance to the story though lately has only been lightly discussed.

 

Also the fact that stilling/gentling can now be healed, but evidently only fully by the opposing side of the OP. Meaning that Siuan and Leane can be healed to their original strength, but only if it is performed by a male channeler.

 

Those are my two thoughts.

[Damodred]

 

Also the fact that stilling/gentling can now be healed, but evidently only fully by the opposing side of the OP. Meaning that Siuan and Leane can be healed to their original strength, but only if it is performed by a male channeler.

 

Those are my two thoughts.

 

I've often wondered that myself.. but what I gather, of the logic of the world of the wheel, wouldn't you have to sever Siuan again to be healed once more and then only be able to heal to the extent of the new limit?  She's already been healed and cannot be healed again, so I think the one chance for full recovery has already been used up.  Discuss?

[Shard]

 

Also the fact that stilling/gentling can now be healed, but evidently only fully by the opposing side of the OP. Meaning that Siuan and Leane can be healed to their original strength, but only if it is performed by a male channeler.

 

Those are my two thoughts.

 

I've often wondered that myself.. but what I gather, of the logic of the world of the wheel, wouldn't you have to sever Siuan again to be healed once more and then only be able to heal to the extent of the new limit?  She's already been healed and cannot be healed again, so I think the one chance for full recovery has already been used up.  Discus

 

 

Maybe it is like when you break a bone and it doesn't set right they can re break it to make it set right.

[bronnt]

 

Also the fact that stilling/gentling can now be healed, but evidently only fully by the opposing side of the OP. Meaning that Siuan and Leane can be healed to their original strength, but only if it is performed by a male channeler.

 

Those are my two thoughts.

 

I've often wondered that myself.. but what I gather, of the logic of the world of the wheel, wouldn't you have to sever Siuan again to be healed once more and then only be able to heal to the extent of the new limit?  She's already been healed and cannot be healed again, so I think the one chance for full recovery has already been used up.  Discus

 

 

Maybe it is like when you break a bone and it doesn't set right they can re break it to make it set right.

 

I don't know if that's the first time this simile has been used, but it might be the best example I've ever heard of as a comparison.

[dumont76]

 

Also the fact that stilling/gentling can now be healed, but evidently only fully by the opposing side of the OP. Meaning that Siuan and Leane can be healed to their original strength, but only if it is performed by a male channeler.

 

Those are my two thoughts.

 

I am not sure if my memory is airtight on this, but I thought it was plainly stated in tGS that there was an absolute certainty for this to be done, just that getting a male to do it might be the obstacle...?  Feel free to shoot holes or fill 'em up  ;D

 

I've often wondered that myself.. but what I gather, of the logic of the world of the wheel, wouldn't you have to sever Siuan again to be healed once more and then only be able to heal to the extent of the new limit?  She's already been healed and cannot be healed again, so I think the one chance for full recovery has already been used up.  Discuss?

[Damodred]

That's an interesting way of thinkin that I haven't come across yet, and would be cool. I'd be glad if they could be healed to full, considering I've always thought it was a tough break for them to get the short stick and everyone else who's been healed get the jackpot.

[Shadow Rider]

Remember though, Birgitte said accessing Ghenji through the world of dreams is more dangerous than when awake.  However, this brings another thought, how did Moghedien know who Birgitte was.  She told either Nyneave or Elayne about it.  I don't know if this fits exactly the qualifications but I think it occured in 4-6 and it is kind of Mysterious.

I think Luckers' theory(which would take too long to reproduce) about the remanent of a remanent is correct.  The Tinkers kept The Way but they abandoned their charge.  The only ones that followed exactly are gone.  Anyway, I certainly hope the Tinkers aren't saved; when the Trollocs invade Seanchan lands, the tinkers may be massacred if they are in the way.  I have only contempt for them.

Since there is a Mistborn spoiler tag; for those that have read the entire trilogy, keep Vin's stud in mind.  Insignificant, just a worthless heir but in the end, Very important.

 

 

Thats a great point. Remember a remnant of a remnant will remain, so a lot of aiel still kinda have to die...

 

 

I think most of the Aiel will die the remnant of a remnant is the Tuath'aan......they will find the song (maybe with the Seachen) they will play a huge part after Tarmon Gaiden ....the song will call the Nim and they will Vanquish the Blight....which is the reason I maintain the big thing we missed is Rhuidean, Rand is having it rebuilt Aiel traders & Ogier and I still think Rand will give Rhuidean to the Traveling People because They didn't fail the Aes sedai who told them .....

 

  "The citizens have already fled the Paaren Disen, Jonai. Besides the Da'shain yet have another part to play, if Deindre could only see far enough to say what. In any case I intend to save something here and that something is YOU."

"As you say," he said reluctantly. "We will care for what you have given into our charge until you want them again."

"Of course. The things we gave you." She smiled at him and loosened her grip, smoothing his hair once more before folding her hands. "You will carry the ... things ... to safety, Jonai.

Keep moving always moving, until you find a place of safety, where no one can harm you."

.............."keep the Covenant Jonai.If the Da'shain lose EVERYTHING ELSE,see they keep THE WAY OF THE LEAF. Promise me."

 

The Covenant was the Aiel, and the Aiel were the Covenant; to abandon the Way would be to abandon what they were.............."KEEP THE AIEL SAFE"

 

The Shadow Rising: Ch-26 (The Dedicated) pg.430-431

 

The reason I think the Aes Sedai gave the ter'angreal to the Da'shain was to keep them away from the men going mad But it is the Aiel themselves who were the real "things" the true treasure.

 

 

 

 

The ter'angreal where not important...the Da'shain Aiel were the true treasure

[Dreamwalker]

 

Also the fact that stilling/gentling can now be healed, but evidently only fully by the opposing side of the OP. Meaning that Siuan and Leane can be healed to their original strength, but only if it is performed by a male channeler.

 

Those are my two thoughts.

 

I've often wondered that myself.. but what I gather, of the logic of the world of the wheel, wouldn't you have to sever Siuan again to be healed once more and then only be able to heal to the extent of the new limit?  She's already been healed and cannot be healed again, so I think the one chance for full recovery has already been used up.  Discuss?

 

Counterpoint: In Ch. 36 of ACoS when Rand is stabbed by Fain's ruby dagger, he is first healed by Samitsu, but is still dying when Flinn comes along and heals him further. This indicates that if someone is first healed by one gender and then the other the one-shot healing rule doesn't necessarily apply.

[Dreamwalker]

registered just to post my theory. I've read and read and I can't recall ever coming across this one, and I don't think it is excluded for being too closely connected to Moraine's letters or the Rhuidean stash. Hope I'm not being a fool, or regurgitating. Here goes:

 

In book 4, the WO's let slip in the tents that they dreamed of Moraine asking to travel to Rhuidean, and that this was crucial for team light. However, the WO's are horrified because in all their dreams it was Moraine who demanded to go to Rhuidean without any suggestion from the WO's. This slip of the tongue may have altered events in unforeseeable ways.

 

The hole in this theory is that the WO's have never worried about this specifically since, so it doesn't quite fit the "been mentioned repeatedly after books 4-6" criteria, but I think my theory may still be valid because the effects of Moraine's trip through the Rhuidean rings started a plotline that has still not been resolved, so in a way the origin's of Moraine's Rhuidean Rings Request has been implied numerous times.

 

Also interesting, in that same chapter (Ch. 23, tSR) the Dreamwalkers also say that they did not see Egwene or Mat coming to Rhuidean at all, so there are further inconsistencies between what they saw and what happened. I'm not convinced this is the BUT though, because it's been said in the books that Dreaming isn't always 100% accurate, it just shows things that have high probabilities of happening. Whereas something unpredictable like Mat's trip to Finnland probably messes that up.

[algspkr]

registered just to post my theory. I've read and read and I can't recall ever coming across this one, and I don't think it is excluded for being too closely connected to Moraine's letters or the Rhuidean stash. Hope I'm not being a fool, or regurgitating. Here goes:

 

In book 4, the WO's let slip in the tents that they dreamed of Moraine asking to travel to Rhuidean, and that this was crucial for team light. However, the WO's are horrified because in all their dreams it was Moraine who demanded to go to Rhuidean without any suggestion from the WO's. This slip of the tongue may have altered events in unforeseeable ways.

 

The hole in this theory is that the WO's have never worried about this specifically since, so it doesn't quite fit the "been mentioned repeatedly after books 4-6" criteria, but I think my theory may still be valid because the effects of Moraine's trip through the Rhuidean rings started a plotline that has still not been resolved, so in a way the origin's of Moraine's Rhuidean Rings Request has been implied numerous times.

 

Interesting theory, but I thought (can someone please confirm/deny) that what we are looking for was introduced early, but had been mentioned repeatedly afterward.  I am pretty sure that we only saw that comment once.

[kluzman]

Hi there.. This is my first post, motivated by porus' ^^

 

I just read this thing about Mat and Egwene going to Rhuidean, and the "wrong" way moiraine decides to go there...

Here is what came to my mind :

 

What if that event created a new "possible reallity" like the ones Rand & co went through in tGH?

A parralel world where, helped by this event, the DO wins... And now he's trying to merge this reallity whith "ours", thus creating the bubbles of evil, killing people and making things appear, things that happen it this other reallity...

The bubbles of evil have been mentioned and discussed often, but have you (ive not discussed here yet ;)) ever seen it as anything else than random DO's influences ?

 

I'm sorry for my poor writing and hope you catch what i'm trying to say  :)

[Crael123]

Because Logain could tell the AS that there was a woman in camp channeling saidin.  It would have blown Halimagar's cover.

 

Got it in one.

 

o. right. hahhahaha  :D

[NetSlider]

You know, and it just hit me after reading one of the posts, all the Tinkers need to do to find the song is go to Rhudian and go through the pillars. :) Now that Rand "opened" city to the rest of the world (kind of) it's only the matter of time.

 

Also, we don't really know if WO see in Rhudian what others see. They make two trips (why, I wonder). Following the same line of thought, I wondered if clan chiefs see the same story (through the same eyes) or do they follow the story through the eyes of their ancestors? After all, the once that did come to Rhudian initially survived as clans and the ones that didn't are long gone. I would be cool if Shaido clan chief sees things in Rhudian through the eyes of the Shaido's ancestors.

 

In regards to Demandred in LoC, it is a very interesting thing what exactly did he do to be so proud and happy at the end of the book. I think it might be related to Rhudian (we actually don't see the city at all for the past 4-5 books maybe; we see a lot of city, but the Rhudian).

 

 

[Calderis]

After Rand went in, later in TSR he's talking with one of the clan chiefs (Rhuarc I think) and is told that each man sees through the eyes of his ancestors. It goes back in a direct line. Some of the people in Rand's visions were literally the father of the man in the previous vision so this makes sense as a straight blood line. It would vary for every person.

 

As far as the Tinker idea... it might work, but only if the Wise one's were wrong. When Rand demanded to take Mat with him, he was told that anyone not of Aiel blood would die inside the pillars. The tinkers have been so long outside the Aiel bloodline with new blood entering, they may not be considered "aiel" by the pillars at all.