The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[lordofsoup]

i thought it destroyed her entire army.  i think it killed the 4 red sisters, we dident hear from them ever again, and a survivor would have told Eladia what happened.  i think that most of the army was killed, LURKERS can u confirm or deny?

[ed2funy]

I don't think the whole army was destroyed....most of it, yes.

What was left just disbanded...

 

Yes, confirm my side of the story.... ;)

[Ashaman Kovan]

I don't think the whole army was destroyed....most of it, yes.

What was left just disbanded...

 

Yes, confirm my side of the story.... ;)

 

That's how it went. Enough men were destroyed to render them useless as any kind of army.

[Luckers]

 

and the attack on Algarin's manor  ;D

 

This one always confuses me.  How dod 100,000 trollocs get that deep into Randland, without being seen.  It would literly take years to move that many through the ways, unless Macha Shin is gone?  It seems like the Shadow has some way of moving great numbers of Trollocs that we do not know about, I am think Imre Stand here.  I also thought that Taim did not know where Rand was.  Logain did not tell him, and Logain said, that he thought Taim would have put him to the question to find out where he was taking all of the Asha'men. 

 

From the rough work I did on the attack on Algarin's manor for the WoTFAQ update.

 

Troop Movement; The Machin Shin Problem

 

If it wasn’t Fain, with his ability to command Machin Shin, then how did one hundred thousand Trollocs move through the waves unmolested by the Black Wind? Based on Moiraine and Rand’s fights with Machin Shin channelling does not provide the answer—the strongest channeler on earth could not have protected and shielded that many Trollocs for the time it took them to move through the Ways—and that many all at once should have attracted the Wind immediately upon entering.

 

When Was The Attack Launched

 

One of the suggested answers for the Machin Shin problem is that the movement was staggered. Sent bit by bit and built up in Tear before initiating the attack, much like how Isam gathered forces in the Two Rivers. Unfortunately this suggestion is just as problematic as the issue it is attempting to solve. Consider;-

 

According to the Steven Cooper Timeline, Rand has been at the manor in Tear for 28 days. Even sending the Trollocs through the ways in small groups, to have gathered a hundred thousand in twenty-eight days they would need to send at least 7100 through at a time, which given Machin Shin's nature is as impossible as the hundred thousand. Furthermore we know pretty much every Trolloc that was sent made it to the manor in tear, or rather every Myrdraal which amounts to the same thing in a group scenario. Even sending them in groups shouldn't be possible if Machin Shin were doing its job properly.

 

So Is Machin Shin Doing It’s Job?

 

Perhaps not. This provides the most viable answer to the Machin Shin problem—that rather than someone figuring out a way to get around it, it simply wasn’t there to cause a problem to begin with. Specifically I’m talking of its changing nature--ever since it encountered Fain in tEotW we have seen its behaviour change--waiting at Waygates, trying to force its way out and at times appearing as if it might succeed. These changes occurred within a six month period, and it has been a further year and half since then for it to continue to change.

 

Either way, whatever is going on with Machin Shin it did not attack the Trollocs, and that doesn’t stand as evidence that a plan was put in place by the person who ordered this attack for sending the Trollocs through in small groups.  As such Moridin's comments indicate a certain degree of immediacy--he learned of it, and summoned the meeting in TAR straight away to issue his commands that the missing Trollocs be watched for. Likely within the last three or four days.

 

 

Machin Shin is either controlled by Fain or the DO...

 

It wasn't Fain. Also from the work I did for the WoTFAQ update.

 

But What of Fain?

 

We’ve seen Fain command Myrdraal in the past, without the Mark, so couldn’t he have used his tricks again?  And Fain has a lot more going for him; he has the ability to create illusions, and thus could make himself look like Sammael, he’s got an ability to control or command Machin Shin, thus providing for the way a hundred thousand Trollocs passed through the Way’s safely.

 

But it is the very first point, the commanding of Myrdraal, where we run into trouble.  Consider the way Fain gains the obedience of the Myrdraal.

 

With a sigh, he seated himself on the edge of his bed. The lamps were already lit, more than a dozen, leaving no shadow anywhere. The tent was as bright inside as noonday. "Have you thought over my proposal? Accept, and you walk free. Refuse.... I know how to hurt your sort., I can make you scream through endless dying. Forever dying, forever screaming."

 

The chains hummed at a jerk; the stakes driven deep into the ground creaked. "Very well. The Myrddraal's voice was dried snakeskin crumbling. "I accept. Release me."

 

Ordeith smiled. It thought him a fool. It would learn. They all would. "First, the matter of ... shall we say, agreements and accord?" As he talked, the Myrddraal began to sweat.

 

[tSR--31--Assurences]

 

Essentially, yes, he does use his abilities to gain obedience from the Myrdraal, but only in the form of giving it pain. As flashy as his methods are, they are still just a way of performing torture. It takes time for the Myrdraal to break—it even pretends to break, intending to later go back on its word.

 

The ‘Sammael’ did not torture hundreds of Myrdraal into obeying him. He commanded, they obeyed. Fain, for all that he had going for him, could not have done that.

 

As Moridin states that means the Chosen and their Mark.

 

 

Lurkers, could u make this into a contest?  The first poster, (and confirmed by Brandon that it is what he was thinking of) who discovers the "The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6" gets to be an honorary Mod?  that would make this thread into a blood bath.

 

Lol. Don't scare me like that.

 

i thought it destroyed her entire army.  i think it killed the 4 red sisters, we dident hear from them ever again, and a survivor would have told Eladia what happened.  i think that most of the army was killed, LURKERS can u confirm or deny?

 

Bastard.

 

But yes, ALOT of people died that day. Daved Hanlon was unable to regather any significant portion of the White Lions.

 

But yes, it was a bubble of evil, not Fain.

[lordofsoup]

But if it was a bubble of evil, then why did it not get Fain, or does he have some way of fighting it.  I assume that it is what Hanlon or Vanin told Mat about in Ebou Dar, the fog that ate people?

[Luckers]

But if it was a bubble of evil, then why did it not get Fain, or does he have some way of fighting it.

 

Why didn't it get any of the people who escaped?

 

I assume that it is what Hanlon or Vanin told Mat about in Ebou Dar, the fog that ate people?

 

I don't remember what you're talking about. Hanlon and Mat have never met in person.

[Putty]

Were the destruction of the rebels in Cairhien and the destruction of the White Lions the same event?

[Ashaman Kovan]

Were the destruction of the rebels in Cairhien and the destruction of the White Lions the same event?

 

A big part of the army mainly consisted of Hanlon's White Lions.

[somathus]

 

and the attack on Algarin's manor  ;D

 

This one always confuses me.  How dod 100,000 trollocs get that deep into Randland, without being seen.  It would literly take years to move that many through the ways, unless Macha Shin is gone?  It seems like the Shadow has some way of moving great numbers of Trollocs that we do not know about, I am think Imre Stand here.  I also thought that Taim did not know where Rand was.  Logain did not tell him, and Logain said, that he thought Taim would have put him to the question to find out where he was taking all of the Asha'men. 

I assumed that they moved their troops the same way the good guys do.  They just use gateways.

 

 

Oh crap, shadowspawn die if they go through a gateway.  Do we know if they die right away?  If there is a time delay, one of the Forsaken would have no problem sending them through gateways if they had enough time to accomplish their goal.

[ed2funy]

But is it every Gateway?

 

When Rand (LTT) channeled the Death Gates, didn't it say they were backwards so that they could kill them?

 

Or was it the right way and just going through is what killed them.

 

Because Rand was thinking that people would find dead Trollocs, I am assuming they die right away...

[Luckers]

But is it every Gateway?

 

When Rand (LTT) channeled the Death Gates, didn't it say they were backwards so that they could kill them?

 

Or was it the right way and just going through is what killed them.

 

Because Rand was thinking that people would find dead Trollocs, I am assuming they die right away...

 

Just going through a gateway is what kills them.

[ed2funy]

Ok...

Cause I could swear Rand said LTT did something special to kill them...

Oh well...

[Luckers]

Ok...

Cause I could swear Rand said LTT did something special to kill them...

Oh well...

 

They added things to make the gateways move and open and close. But the passing through a gateway itself is fatal.

[ed2funy]

Even to TAR?

I know there is discussion on this, but I haven't read any definitive conclusions anywhere.

[Luckers]

Even to TAR?

I know there is discussion on this, but I haven't read any definitive conclusions anywhere.

 

We don't know for sure, but it is likely. It seems the nature of the gateway itself that presents problems for constructs.

[ed2funy]

Interesting.....

I think we will find out if there are any other ways to get them from A to B faster than marching/rampaging.

 

AMoL Spoiler: Trollocs can fly!

[Sharaman]

The 100,000 trollocs in Tear were sent through the Ways by somebody who pretended to be Sammael. Moridin deduced that the person was definitely a Chosen since Fades and Trollocs can see a sign on Chosen.

Some say it may have been Taim. It was definitely not Halima because we hear the conversation from her PoV.

LTT - RaT know that shadowspawn can't survive going through Gateways.

Nor apparently can Nym for the same reason - constructs of the Power.

 

[shinerfan]

Alright I've been drinking and this might sound stupid tomorrow but could the BUT be that the DO has made a new Chosen in Taim? The two separate episodes in LoCh where it seems for a moment that Taim is Demandred could be explained by Taim being marked as a Forsaken and possibly impersonating Demandred?

[clu7ch]

I'll just throw this out there:

“Rand sitting down in a chair, and somehow she knew that the chair's owner would be murderously angry at having her chair taken”

“Perrin, lounging with Faile on his lap, kissing her while she played with the short-cut beard that he wore in the dream. Behind them two banners waved, a red wolf's head and a crimson eagle. A man in a bright yellow coat stood near to Perrin's shoulder, a sword strapped to his back; in some way she knew that he was a Tinker, though no Tinker would ever touch a sword. And every bit of it except the beard seemed important. The banners, Faile kissing Perrin, even the Tinker. Every time he moved closer to Perrin it was if a chill of doom shot through everything.”

 

Would like  you to look specifically at this:

And every bit of it except the beard seemed important.

 

Res ipsa loquitur, tabula in naufragio, the beard is important. Somehow. /emote:WINK

Perhaps Perrin is chuck norris reborn - would explain the importance of mr. beard.

 

[thewalrus777]

I could probably see Taim being raised to Chosen. Lord knows Rand keeps killing em' off with BF fast enough. I would Imagine that Taim would be a prime candidate for Chosen just from his past actions alone against Rand. I also gotta believe that the DO would eventually have to start promoting from within. No to mention Taim fits the personality traits the DO looks for in his Chosen. Self-centered, self-righteous douches, that want only Power. Not just to be a channeler forever, but real power and authority. And as we've seen Taim will try to acheive power, at all cost.

[benr]

I apologize if this has been discussed; Christmas morning and I'm rushed, but could it be the whole situation with Herid Fel?  What he discovered, what Rand has figured out, what Min has figured out, Fel's death, and what all of this means pertaining to TG?  I know this HAS been discussed elsewhere, but perhaps it hasn't been given the significance it deserves, or we've missed something important.

[Teslan]

When was it first brought up that rand needed to break the seals?

 

We still don't know WHY that is.

 

Or we do and I missed it...

[OptimusPrime]

he needs to break the seals and remake them

[Teslan]

Why?

 

Why do we need to 'clear the rubble' first?

 

  What exactly will breaking the seals do?  How free was the DO before he was bound? vOv

[Sharaman]

Well Fel and seals been discussed a lot. The theme's basic to the plot.

AFAIK, the GLoD was locked away safely in some sort of Phantom Zone. Then Lanfear & co. found a new strange source of power (GLoD aka the TP) and drilled the Bore, which allowed Him to touch the world though He remained imprisoned. The Seals plugged the Bore. I guess if the seals are removed, GloD will be able to touch the world again and try to free Himself. Then they'll have to find another way to lock Him up once more.