The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[dapianoplay3r]

It just doesn't feel like RJ's style to take something so meaningless like a peach poisoness cos he doesn't like them.

He's not that petty

[ed2funy]

He could just have wanted to have fun!

 

Plus, we all know Peaches are poisonous!!!

[shinerfan]

I just don't see how the peaches thing can play a big part in the story. Maybe Alivia feeding Rand peaches to help him die? But how would that be different than using any other poisonous, though quite tasty, fruit? I'm really thinking that this really is just a little dig at his neighbors to the south. But it does meet most of the requirements for the "big, unnoticed thing". Gonna be interesting.

[bramaen]

The reason I thought the peaches were a bit suspicious is this: they only become poisonous after the war of power. The forsaken remember them as being eadible so it means they became poisonous after they were sealed away. Now what would cause this to happen? I doubt it was mad male channelers, because it would probably be very strange if one guy went so insane he decided it would be a brilliant idea to change the genetic make up of every peach tree in the world. So the question is who or what changed the peaches? The Dark One? The Dragon in his whole being the health of the land thing? Something else?

The reason this has me so intrigued is that poisonous peaches is a reiterated tidbit throughout the series. It certainly fits being such a small thing that Brandon Sanderson can't recall which book it is first referenced in. So you never know, of course Lilbaz could be right and it was just an in joke on Robert Jordan's part.

 

Got to throw this in there - peaches ARE poisonous, the pits at least. Check the link:

 

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1941154/the_unknown_danger_of_peach_pits_poison.html?cat=5

 

At any rate, I always thought the comments about peaches being poisonous, or 'sure as peaches were poison' were actually in reference to the fact that danger or corruption could be hidden behind or within a beautiful or useful facade... a cautionary tale that you can find danger or deciet where you least expect to find it (poison in something as sweet as peaches) and one of those bits of 'folk wisdom' the books are so replete with. I don't think there's anything more to it than that.

 

I think that the peaches in Randland are fully poisonous, and not just the pit.  There's one point where someone is killed by poison from a peach pit, and Nynaeve comments about how the pit is the "most poisonous part of the peach", not "the poisonous" or "the only poisonous", but the "most poisonous", implying that the rest of the fruit is poison too.  Plus there's another scene in which Rand is remembering swimming across a lake or something to munch in the peach orchard as a kid, then realizes it's LT's memory mixing with his own, because there weren't lakes like that in the two rivers, and peaches are poisonous.  Again, this implies that the whole fruit would be poisonous, as it's implied that this would have to be LT's memory because no one would ever want to eat a peach, or something.

 

I just chalked it up to the change happening during the breaking, either due to the chaos of the world getting ripped apart and who knows how many changes were made, or perhaps some really powerful male AS gone mad did something that changed the genetics of the peaches because he didn't like the taste.

 

I must have missed the part about peaches.  The only reference I remember is the one where Nynaeve is talking about ground dried peach pit being poisonous (which it is).  I don't remember a single reference beyond that stating that the entire peach is poisonous and that they are in any way important to the story.  =P

 

Also, the logic that "because the peach pit is the most poisonous part of the peach, that also means the rest of the peach is poisonous." is flawed.  If the peach flesh is not poisonous at all, the peach pit would still be the most poisonous part.  Put in mathematical terms.  If the peach pit has a poison value of 10, then the rest of the peach can have a poison value from 0 - 9 and still be less poisonous.

[Sentinel78]

If only Herid Fel had completed his note...

 

Belief and order give strength. Have to clear rubble before you can build. Will explain when see you next. Do not bring girl. Too pretty.  Btw, you should plug the Bore with peaches, their poison will contain the Dark One!

 

[wumpus]

Mayhap RJ was simply using the peach to illustrate that the changes from the breaking not only included massive changes to the landscape throwing up mountains and draining seas, but also subtle changes to the fruit themselves. Maybe it was the result of a bio weapon used by the forsaken in the AoL, maybe a cigar is just a cigar.

[Netizen]

Re peaches - I always assumed that the Randland characters were wrong about the whole peach being poisonous, as they are wrong about so many other things. They know that the pit is poisonous, and tradition has it that the whole fruit is, so that's what they believe.

 

I think that it is meant to illustrate that what they think they know is not necessarily true, and not just about peaches. Rand's/LTT's memories of eating peaches shows that they were edible at some point, and they may well still be, but who wants to eat the poisonous fruit to find out it's OK and why bother?

 

In any case, I'm fairly certain that there's a reference to poisonous peaches in TEOTW which makes it too early to be the big little thing.

[Little Miss]

So I've been reading the books through again (currently on LOC Ch. 29 pg. 411) and the only thing that has me stuck on is a line said by Mazrim Taim when he first meets Rand and explains where he got a seal of the DO...

 

"In the last place you would expect, which I suppose is the first place to look for the others. A decaying little farm in Saldaea. I stopped for water and the farmer gave it to me. He was old, with no children or grandchildren to pass it on to, and he thought I was the Dragon Reborn. He claimed his family had guarded it more than two thousand years. Claimed they were kings and queens during the Trolloc years and nobles under Artur Hawkwing." [LOC; Chpt:2 New Arrival; pg.81]"

 

This story just seems to ring some bells to me... It sounds a lot like the story Fain told Turak when he brought him the Horn of Valere.

 

"Fain tried to make his voice convincing. Patient, like a worm boring from within. 'High Lord, my family has passed down a tradition, generation upon generation.  We Served the High King, Artur Paendrag Tanreall, and when he was murdered by the witches of Tar Valon, we did not abandon our oaths.  When others warred and tore apart  what Artur Hawkwing had made, we held to our swearing, and suffered for it, but held to it still.  This is out tradition, High Lord, handed father to son, mother to daughter, down all the years since the High King was murdered.'" [TGH Chpt:33 The Wheel Weaves; pg.495]

 

Now I know it's not word for word but it's a little too close for me and in my world coincidence and Robert Jordan can't even exist in the same thought together. :p  Now I know that it's slightly in a million years kind possible the RJ decided to use this excuse again but you never know... :\

 

 

 

{Edit} - This similarity may be a hint at what knowledge Taim has been recieving or a connection to Fain.. Other than it being similar.. I don't know what it can affect other than proving Taim is a DF.. maybe?

 

[Little Miss]

Book 4 is when they first mention how quiet the Blight is, when Trolloc raids into the Borderlands are curtailed... ?  I've just assumed they've been forming whatever Shadowspawn army they're going to use at TG.  This seems too obvious for what BS is likely to have alluded to, and this must have been discussed elsewhere.

 

LTT's memories first start in Book 4 I think, definitely by Book 5.  These have been discussed to death. 

 

Rhuarc mentions in Book 4 that there is fighting in Shara, and that this is very unusual.  Demandred then announces in TGS that his rule is secure...  Shara's been discussed a lot, but has there been any discussion on why there is fighting in Shara?

 

The whole story took on a deeper arc in Book 4, we really don't have enough to go on here.

 

Rhuarc mentions in Book 4 that there is fighting in Shara

 

Never mind that was Book 6

 

Sentinal - I think you strike an interesting point here actually! The only thing that might discredit that Demandred is the reason for the fighting is because in book six Graendal says that she has stole the Sh'boan and Sh'botay from them.. as we know normally one dies every 7 years and the surviving spouse rules the next 7 years ecetera ecetera.. Sammy ,dear, thinks that she just stole them from Shara to distract Sammy while he was visiting her.  Any ways I think that a nation that sounds so rule and logic based would have a very hard time if their rulers suddenly and quickly vanished.  It should also be noted that in this same meeting Sammy states that events in the south had the look of Demandred's touch all over it... now does he mean south as in other places other than Illian where  he is ruling? or South of the location they where in right then, which was Arad Doman.  This seems to be a clue as to where he is hiding...maybe.. :p [for more on this meeting it starts here; LOC Chpt.6 Threads Woven of Shadow pg.129]

 

Either way I find that the turmoil in Shara may yet prove to mean something as well...

[shinerfan]

I guess its in LoC where Perrin first meets Bashere and Bashere tells him about a very good woodcutter in Saldea who claims to be descended from kings and queens before Hawkwing. Hmm. . . only the instance where Pain spoke with Turak would have been tGH. Still, this is interesting, I had completely forgotten Taim's story and never noticed the similarities. Perhaps Fain knew of the family that kept this tradition and killed/impersonated the old man or maybe just stole the Horn. His years as a peddlar could have easily taken him to rural Saldea.

Another thing that's never really been resolved is Cadsuane's "toothless wilder" in the Black Hills. There was a name but I gave away the early books years ago. This is where Cadsuane acquired her hair ornaments. Who was this wilder and how did she get her hands on these objects of the power when the White Tower have for centuries considered all such objects to be the property of the Tower and I assume enforced this quite harshly given what we know of Aes Sedai?

The Black Hills don't really extend into Saldea but seem to peter out just shy of the border. Same region though. So, we have at least three similar stories, two of them centered in or near Saldea, plus the wilder close by who had a pretty nice collection of hair ornaments that Cadsuane "began to earn"?  The appearance in the books doesn't match up but I've always read the Sanderson quote as a little uncertain about where exactly it first appeared. This could be subterfuge but who knows?

I think we're onto something here but I don't know what. Maybe there could be more Hawkwing loyalists hidden in this area? But it would've been Aldeshar in Hawkwing's time so probably not. And how would Hawkwing loyalists acquire objects/knowledge of the power? Any thoughts?

 

(I like it better than the peaches.)

[Little Miss]

Shinerfan... you just gave me a huge Idea! Well.. to me anyways... see, I was for a little while stuck on the location of Saldaea to Falme.... Since the time line of when Taim recieved the Seal and the timeline of when Fain was in Famle seems really quite plausible... the fact that they may have been in touch doesn't seem so much any more.. but what about the fact that Graendal is located in a place in Arad Doman which borders include the Mountains of Mist and Saldaea to the east and west respectivly... :\ perhaps Taim's working for Graendal?

 

Btw.. when does Cadsuane come on to the scene? I don't think it's in books 4 through 6.. and I'm pretty sure that Sanderson was more than vague enough to give us 3 books to work with.. :p

[shinerfan]

Cadsuane first showed up in book 7 (CoS I think, I always get 7-8 mixed up). It was right after he returned from Dumai's Wells. But there were a couple of mentions of a group of unidentified Aes Sedai in Caemlyn. (at the Silver Swan Inn maybe?) I always figured that was Cadsuane and her group. Sanderson's remarks might've been deliberately vague or they might've been vague because he really wasn't sure when this first appeared. I don't think its unthinkable that it might've appeared earlier and it just didn't occur to him and then he didn't bother to clear it up.

[Impressive Bosom]

Book 4 is when they first mention how quiet the Blight is, when Trolloc raids into the Borderlands are curtailed... ?  I've just assumed they've been forming whatever Shadowspawn army they're going to use at TG.  This seems too obvious for what BS is likely to have alluded to, and this must have been discussed elsewhere.

 

LTT's memories first start in Book 4 I think, definitely by Book 5.  These have been discussed to death. 

 

Rhuarc mentions in Book 4 that there is fighting in Shara, and that this is very unusual.  Demandred then announces in TGS that his rule is secure...  Shara's been discussed a lot, but has there been any discussion on why there is fighting in Shara?

 

The whole story took on a deeper arc in Book 4, we really don't have enough to go on here.

 

Rhuarc mentions in Book 4 that there is fighting in Shara

 

Never mind that was Book 6

 

Sentinal - I think you strike an interesting point here actually! The only thing that might discredit that Demandred is the reason for the fighting is because in book six Graendal says that she has stole the Sh'boan and Sh'botay from them.. as we know normally one dies every 7 years and the surviving spouse rules the next 7 years ecetera ecetera.. Sammy ,dear, thinks that she just stole them from Shara to distract Sammy while he was visiting her.  Any ways I think that a nation that sounds so rule and logic based would have a very hard time if their rulers suddenly and quickly vanished.  It should also be noted that in this same meeting Sammy states that events in the south had the look of Demandred's touch all over it... now does he mean south as in other places other than Illian where  he is ruling? or South of the location they where in right then, which was Arad Doman.  This seems to be a clue as to where he is hiding...maybe.. :p [for more on this meeting it starts here; LOC Chpt.6 Threads Woven of Shadow pg.129]

 

Either way I find that the turmoil in Shara may yet prove to mean something as well...

 

The impression I got - and of course I could end up being completely wrong about this - was that the 'there is fighting in Sharra' bit was basically done to explain why Sharra would not have any part in the Last Battle even though (presumably) its outcome would affect the whole world including them, they may have their own prophecies, their own angreal and ter'angreal, their own heroes and Great Captains and whatnot. Their inclusion would just be too much to handle with the Aiel, the Seanchan and the many nations of Randland... more likely we as readers just needed a reason for them not to be included in the Last Battle and the solution that the Chosen had effectively thrown them into neutered chaos is a perfect one.

[BladeDancer]

Does anyone know why Chora trees are so important?

 

The Aiel kept cuttings of Chora trees along with their important Ter'Angreal collection throughout all their wanderings. Avendesora is famous as 'The Tree of Life'. It certainly sounds important. The Aiel started a war when Avendoraldera was cut down by Laman. The Aiel see great importance to Chora trees but it is not really explained why. During the Aiel wandering the Ogiers commented on the Chora trees (OK they are very much into trees) but it seemed significant enough to mention. The Ogier use the representation of Chora leaves to open/close Waygates - so the Ogier also place significance to Chora trees.

 

The Aes Sedai who eventually encoutered the Jenn Aiel in Rhuidean used the OP to shroud the City in mist so that the harsh weather of the Waste did not affect it. I can understand why folks think this was done to protect the City itself and it's Ter'Angreal but could this in fact be a measure to help protect Avendesora as well?

 

Do the Aiel only revere Chora trees because it reminded them of the Age of Legends? The Da'shain Aiel followed a philosophy called the Way of the Leaf - named after Chora leaves? Even before Rand revealed the secret of their past, the Aiel accepted the importance of Avendesora enough to cross the Dragonwall to punish Laman.

 

I understand that the Tinkers, Aiel and Ogiers are linked to growing plants through singing in the AOL. The Aiel may merely revere Avendesora due to this past link with growing plants but The Tree of Life is regarded as important enough to be the source of legends even throughout the Wetlands. We can see how other sources of legends such as the Horn of Valere are 'Important' - so surely Avendesora is also 'Important' in some way we have not yet seen. I doubt Matt being hanged from the Tree of Life counts as the Chora Tree being significant enough to the story to be a source of legends.

 

The Aiel history, Avendesora and the Ter'Angreal at Rhuidean were all events in books 4-6 so it fits the time-frame.

 

Hopefully Aviendha's trip back to Rhuidean will show whether The Tree of Life is to play any more significant importance in the story.

 

[Dakota]

The impression I got - and of course I could end up being completely wrong about this - was that the 'there is fighting in Sharra' bit was basically done to explain why Sharra would not have any part in the Last Battle even though (presumably) its outcome would affect the whole world including them, they may have their own prophecies, their own angreal and ter'angreal, their own heroes and Great Captains and whatnot. Their inclusion would just be too much to handle with the Aiel, the Seanchan and the many nations of Randland... more likely we as readers just needed a reason for them not to be included in the Last Battle and the solution that the Chosen had effectively thrown them into neutered chaos is a perfect one.

 

I'm thinking it might be something similiar along these lines too.  We know nothing about Shara but a few little snippits about how their leadership works and how they deal with channelers, but we know nothing about their society and culture as a whole.  Take that along with the fact that we're, according to the original plan, a third of the way through the final book in the series, it's too late to be trying to introduce an entire new culture and all their customs, prophecies, et cetera.  If they did show up for the last battle, pretty much it would be either a Deus Ex Machina on the good guys' side, or a LotR-style "The Corsairs are attacking" bit on the bad guys' side.

 

I suspect that the things going on in Shara might be one of these plotlines that Sanderson mentioned in an interview were going to be unresolved by the end of the series.

[aielsupersoldier]

Shinerfan... you just gave me a huge Idea! Well.. to me anyways... see, I was for a little while stuck on the location of Saldaea to Falme.... Since the time line of when Taim recieved the Seal and the timeline of when Fain was in Famle seems really quite plausible... the fact that they may have been in touch doesn't seem so much any more.. but what about the fact that Graendal is located in a place in Arad Doman which borders include the Mountains of Mist and Saldaea to the east and west respectivly... :\ perhaps Taim's working for Graendal?

 

Btw.. when does Cadsuane come on to the scene? I don't think it's in books 4 through 6.. and I'm pretty sure that Sanderson was more than vague enough to give us 3 books to work with.. :p

 

Interesting... the fact that Taim and Fain may have been in touch is relevant.  Sanderson has said that Fain being around someone will affect that person in the same way as the dagger affected Mat.  We saw this with the suspicion, etc. that grew in the WT under Elaida who had contact with Fain.  Taim certainly would be open to Fain's evil influence, and we can see that same sort of suspicion breeding in the BT.

 

Quote from Q&A:

 

Matt: I heard you answer a question last night, which sounded interesting. Someone asked about Padan Fain and Elaida.

 

Brandon: A lot of people don’t remember that they met.

 

Matt: So, his influence, how long for example…wasn’t Egwene exposed to Padan Fain? Are there still effects that Egwene has on people because of him?

 

Brandon: Remember the idea that people have, generally, a choice. There are ways to turn people to the Shadow against their will, but when that happens the person is no longer the person. What is happening with Padan Fain is, naturally tendencies can be exacerbated or they can be fought off...

 

Matt: ...so Elaida’s paranoia fed that? With someone like Egwene she might have fought it off, so it’s not going to be…

 

Brandon: ...right. exactly, or someone like Rand who continues to fight it off. He has become very paranoid. And the wound in his side, certainly someone could make the connection that that might have an influence. I won’t say for certain but…

[Auld Manriva]

OK.. let's see

• Rand got that wound from Fain in the proper time frame.
  
• It's been mentioned off and on ever since, with all the girls at one time or another thinking or saying, more or less, "Oh light, how can he/you bear the pain?"
  
• It's not really been discussed all that visibly, though it HAS been mentioned in various threads here I seem to recall
  
• It has the potential to be more than is evident currently; meaning more than a pain in the ... side
  
• It's been an acknowledged distraction, but I don't recall anyone considering it much more than that
  

 

If it is tBUT, how does it play out? Why is it important to the story down the road?

[Sharaman]

Rand got that wound in Book VII CoS - later than the proper timeframe unless BS has mixed things up.

 

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

Just to get back to the subject of peaches (!), a couple of people mentioned that perhaps RJ made them poisonous because he didn't like them. I bet it was just the opposite: Some of the best peaches on Earth grow in that part of the country. Imagine a world so injured that something as juicy and delicious as a peach might kill you. Now there is a Breaking.

 

How this could be the big unnoticed mystery thing, however, is beyond me... =)

I think it was a "just because" artistic detail, something RJ was very good at.

[Little Miss]

Shinerfan... you just gave me a huge Idea! Well.. to me anyways... see, I was for a little while stuck on the location of Saldaea to Falme.... Since the time line of when Taim recieved the Seal and the timeline of when Fain was in Famle seems really quite plausible... the fact that they may have been in touch doesn't seem so much any more.. but what about the fact that Graendal is located in a place in Arad Doman which borders include the Mountains of Mist and Saldaea to the east and west respectivly... :\ perhaps Taim's working for Graendal?

 

Btw.. when does Cadsuane come on to the scene? I don't think it's in books 4 through 6.. and I'm pretty sure that Sanderson was more than vague enough to give us 3 books to work with.. :p

 

Interesting... the fact that Taim and Fain may have been in touch is relevant.  Sanderson has said that Fain being around someone will affect that person in the same way as the dagger affected Mat.  We saw this with the suspicion, etc. that grew in the WT under Elaida who had contact with Fain.  Taim certainly would be open to Fain's evil influence, and we can see that same sort of suspicion breeding in the BT.

 

AH HA!!! So the whole reason Taim seems like he has Dark Hound up his butt is cause he had to deal with Fain? Well that makes a whole lot more sense now :p  Any ways... I think that that little connection is rather interesting.. now another thing that I have seen brought up is a question about what Fain did in Caemlyn on his way to Tar Valon.. So far the only thing I have seen is that the little rag-tag bunch of converted WCs have attacked Rand.. Now does this timeline of Fain being in Andor match up with how long Taim has been in Andor? Remember in the end of TFOH all Bashere says is that Taim is in Andor.. I don't really remember how long ago Fain made his way from Two Rivers to Tar Valom.. any ways.. might not really go any where just a though ^^

[StefanR]

Does anybody remember how in Crown of Swords, when Rand was stabbed by Fain, and then healed by flinn it was mentioned that "it was shut off so it wouldnt spread, BUT it wouldn't be permanent?

 

Whatever happened to it continuing to spread?

[ed2funy]

Nyn kept trying to heal it..and so did a few other i think...

 

and now the Shadar Logoth is gone...

so it might have stopped the "spreading" that way...

:-\

[saidarisnowtainted]

there's an interesting theoryland discussion regarding the blight's recession and progression.    http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2574

 

Although the first time we see the blight recede is in book one, that looks like an isolated event because there are several references from 4 on stating the blights new recession and it being quite, etc.  that discussion finds all the quotes--interesting.

 

well, i was considering Rand's tie to the land.  What if Ishy has a similar tie to the land--but his tie is to the Blight?  what do you guys think?

[Mr. Insane]

  I managed to skim all 82 pages.  what do I get?

 

  I am a bit surprised I did not see my theory.  A few people mention Leliwin and Ceradin, but not as the important point in their theories.  My theory is that Elayne will be the one who finaly convinces Fortuona to trust a channeler with their collar off, and her actions in books 4-6 will be key in doing so.  This hinges on Fortuona hearing Ceradin's story.  It seems likely she has heard Leliwin's story of Elayne's actions at tanchio already since she gave her that name.  Elayne let Ceradin beat her up despite being able to channel.  That could be BIG if it ever reaches Fortuona's ears.

[Mr. Insane]

    Some points that seem to back up my theory -

 

  The seanchan have some elite investigators.

 

  Elayne has been releasing sul'dam prisoners that were sent to her by Rand.

 

  Elayne has black ajah prisoners. (this would only be relevant if another theory of mine turned out to be true, that Elayne might be willing to trade them to the seanchan for white tower damane).