Masema (Full Book Spoilers)

[Luckers]

Discuss.

[John Galt]

He died.  It was cool.  He won't be missed.

[deathgate]

I think he was compulsed. He seems to have a hard time remembering things that happened after Falme. He surely furthered the Lords of Chaos.

[Luckers]

I take his early death as further proof in the Masuri/Annoura are Black Ajah theory. The evident build up of the mystery of whats going on with them combined with his death serve me as very strong evidence that they definately were not meeting up with him. Therefore I'd say it becomes even more likely that they were meeting up with whoever was influencing him (that individual, or individuals, is literally the only figure besides Masema in Masema's camp worth an Aes Sedai's attention).

 

 

[catkin]

I think that it was past tine for Masema to die. We got confirmation that he was being manipulated by the Shadow (he thinks that Rand instructed him to kill Perrin). Was this Morriden or Denandred?

I just wish Faile had not been the agent of death. She uses expediency too much for me. I have been struggling to like her for 15 years now.

Also I am sure that Anoura made and Misuri are black ajah. Anoura made that black ajah sign with the thunmbs in Cairhien when she meets Cadsuane's group - same as Halima at Salidar.

[Shard]

So you think that Masema was compulsed by a Forsaken? Graendal perhaps?

[Vorkia]

Anoura made that black ajah sign with the thunmbs in Cairhien when she meets Cadsuane's group - same as Halima at Salidar.

 

She did?  Can you reference the book and hopefully a page number or chapter?  I can't believe I missed something like that. (obviously I did though)

[Demon_AS]

Compulsion is one theory.

 

He could've just been a fanatic that went mad with the revelation of the Dragon Reborn.

 

However, it's clear that he was being directed by one of the Forsaken - Demandred, I would guess - from what he said about how the Lord Dragon appeared to him and ordered him to kill Perrin.

 

I say Demandred because Moridin's already stated that he doesn't want Rand killed (yet), so we can rule out him and his cronies (Cyndane/Moghedien). I guess it could've been Graendal, as she and Sammael were the directing force behind Therava and the Shaido, but once Sammael died, I figure she'd be too cautious to influence things just yet.

[a great fantasy fan]

She made that sign? I didn't catch that. Now I gotta look it up!

[ohaitharguiz]

I think he was compulsed, or someone disguised themselves as Rand and gives him orders. Something along those lines, but he was an agent of chaos for sure.

[Astus]

I believed that Moghdien sent two (or one) of the original Black Ajah 13 to latch onto Masema. I think a member here put forward a very good theory about it and it made a ton of sense. They've been absent for seven books (Berylla, Jeanie, Rianna) and I wanted to see what was up with them.

[Stevros]

She made that sign? I didn't catch that. Now I gotta look it up!

 

Just been looking his up myself not 100% convinced, but it would be strange for one of the grey ajah to have a nervous twich and when Halima does it she seems not to be rubbing, just placing her thumb between fingers.

 

the extracts are found:

The Crown of Swords Chapter 19 page 371 - Annoura rubbing her thumbs

Lord of Chaos Chapter 30 page 622 - Halima giving the black ajah symbol

[Dorkfiend]

Anoura made that black ajah sign with the thunmbs in Cairhien when she meets Cadsuane's group - same as Halima at Salidar.

 

She did?  Can you reference the book and hopefully a page number or chapter?  I can't believe I missed something like that. (obviously I did though)

 

Yeah, she did, I believe when she met Cadsuane in Carhien in CoS.  It was very, very quick, and Caddy barely noticed except to wonder at Annoura's self-control "for a Gray".  It's a good, non-black moment for Cads as well.

 

[Eleint]

I, too, am curious who the 'glorious figure of light' was.  It could just be insanity, but it'd be more fulfilling if it was a plot of some kind.  I, too, think it likely it was Demandred.  He's the only Forsaken who we haven't seen with an 'area' of sorts.  It'd be interesting as it'd link Demandred to Amador, Mureandy, and all that area the way others have been linked to other areas.

[MatrixM]

I say Demandred because Moridin's already stated that he doesn't want Rand killed (yet), so we can rule out him and his cronies (Cyndane/Moghedien). I guess it could've been Graendal, as she and Sammael were the directing force behind Therava and the Shaido, but once Sammael died, I figure she'd be too cautious to influence things just yet.

 

Moridin's fine with killing Perrin, though. Very much so.

 

I, too, am curious who the 'glorious figure of light' was.  It could just be insanity, but it'd be more fulfilling if it was a plot of some kind.  I, too, think it likely it was Demandred.  He's the only Forsaken who we haven't seen with an 'area' of sorts.  It'd be interesting as it'd link Demandred to Amador, Mureandy, and all that area the way others have been linked to other areas.

I don't think there's much of an army in Amador, though. Maybe Murandy, but didn't they just recover from some civil war handled by the Band? My memory may not be so good.

[Stevros]

Anoura made that black ajah sign with the thunmbs in Cairhien when she meets Cadsuane's group - same as Halima at Salidar.

 

She did?  Can you reference the book and hopefully a page number or chapter?  I can't believe I missed something like that. (obviously I did though)

 

Yeah, she did, I believe when she met Cadsuane in Carhien in CoS.  It was very, very quick, and Caddy barely noticed except to wonder at Annoura's self-control "for a Gray".  It's a good, non-black moment for Cads as well.

 

 

Its Merana's PoV not Cadsuane.  ;)

[Dorkfiend]

I don't think there's much of an army in Amador, though. Maybe Murandy, but didn't they just recover from some civil war handled by the Band? My memory may not be so good.

 

Amador is under Seanchan control, with a few Questioners thrown in.  Murandy was attacked by Pedron Niall's pet "dragonsworn", but Roedran hires the Band to eliminate them.  Talmanes accomplishes this well.

 

Here's a horrible thought.  What if somehow the "rule" that Demandred considers secure is somehow over the Band?  The Band is one of the very few major entities in the whole world where we have no clues who is a darkfriend.  (The only other is the Aiel Wise Ones.)  This seems terribly suspicious.

 

[Luckers]

Here is the Annoura quote.

 

"I take it by your presence, Merana," Cadsuane said abruptly, "that tales of the boy submitting to Elaida are false. Don't look so surprised, child. Did you think I didn't know your... associations?" She gave that word such a twist, it sounded as filthy as any soldier's expletive. "And you, Annoura?"

 

"I am here only to advise Berelain, though the truth of it is, she ignored my advice by coming in the first place." The Taraboner woman held her head up, voice confident. She was rubbing her thumbs for all she was worth, though. She could not do well at the negotiating table if she was that transparent. "For the rest," she said carefully, "I have reached no decision as yet."

 

[tCoS: 19, Diamonds and Stars]

 

I think its a good catch, especially in light of other events.

 

I believed that Moghdien sent two (or one) of the original Black Ajah 13 to latch onto Masema. I think a member here put forward a very good theory about it and it made a ton of sense. They've been absent for seven books (Berylla, Jeanie, Rianna) and I wanted to see what was up with them.

 

That was my theory. And it was just Berylla and Rianna--Jeanie's reaction to her instructions are horror, whilst the other two react calmly. I see nothing in this idea that would cause Jeanie horror.

 

Here is the theory. Understand that it hasn't been updated for tGS yet.

 

Are They Actually Meeting Masema?

 

Well Masuri and Annoura both snuck into Masema's camp several times right up through to the end of KoD. Now Perrin believes they went to meet Masema himself, which stands to reason given that he is the only figure in that camp worth an Aes Sedai's attention, the rest all being rag tag zealots. Yet this seems strange--Masema hates Aes Sedai, and they don't seem too fond of him either. Perrin even notices that they seem to be growing to hate each other even more in spite of the ongoing meetings.

 

"...a pity you will not let the Seanchan leash all of them." [Masema's] sidelong glance at Annoura and Masuri said he included them, despite the fact that both had visited him in secret more than once. They regarded him with Aes Sedai calm, though Masuri's slim hands moved as if to smooth her brown skirts. She said she had changed her mind and now believed the man must be killed, so why was she meeting him? Why was Annoura? Why did Masema allow them? He more than hated Aes Sedai.

 

[KoD--The Last Knot--629]

 

So, several curiosities here. Let me state them...

 

1. Both Masuri and Annoura claim Masema must be killed--Masuri having originally believed she could use him has changed her mind--yet even after changing it, both she and Annoura continue to sneak into his camp.

 

2. Masema allows it, despite his hatred of Aes Sedai.

 

Or rather, these are the problems Perrin sees based on the idea of Masuri and Annoura meeting with Masema. Yet in truth neither Aes Sedai was seen with Masema. Selende says 'they have been meeting with Masema' but all that happened was that one of her people saw Masuri and her warder, and occasionally Annoura with them, sneaking into and out of the camp. He comments are clear on this--they were seen only in transit.

 

“Masuri Sedai has visited Masema… the Prophet. It is true my Lord; believe me! Havier has seen her more than once. She slips into their camp hooded and leaves the same way, but he has had a good look at her face twice.

 

They are never actually seen with Masema, and whilst he does some to be the only figure of note, given the above hatred that seems very hard to swallow. Of course they could be dissembling, all of them—yet Masuri clenching of her hands, her vocally changed opinion, these things seem more designed to draw attention to her re:Masema, which makes it unlikely all over again.

 

Well, if not Masema, then who?

 

So, if we remove Selende's assumption, and then take the above two points into account, then it seems very unlikely that they are meeting Masema--which raises the question of who are they meeting? Who else would be worthy of their attention? Who else would be a figure influencing events in Masema's horde? Well, the first step in answer that is to ask...

 

Is Someone Influencing Masema

 

The only evidence that might suggest that there is is in the fact of his success. Masema is insane--we know that for a fact from Perrin's nose. He is genuinely, deeply insane. Now, they say God protects the insane, but even so things have fallen neatly for him. No really genuine, organised opposition has formed against him--almost as if someone is subtly playing politics with the purpose of protecting Masema. But still, that's guesswork. The question is, if there is someone influencing things, why would they do so?

 

The only real answer is that it is to spread chaos--i.e. that this person is a darkfriend. I'll touch on this again in a bit.

 

The second step to answering this is in asking--why Masuri and Annoura? Or, put another way...

 

Why not Seonid?

 

Concider; we have a Green, a Brown and a Grey. The Green and the Brown are both rebels, whilst the Grey is unaffiliated. The Green and Brown are both oathsworn to the Dragon, whilst the Grey serves Berelain. The Green and the Brown are both apprentices to the Wise Ones, the Grey is 'technically' her own woman. Moreover the Grey and the Brown both support killing Masema, whilst initially the Green did not.

 

So why are the Brown and the Grey colluding, yet not including the Green? Havier has observed Masuri and Annoura entering the camp quite a few times, but Seonid is never present. There is no political or personal reasons for this strange grouping.

 

Well, no, thats not right. There is a theoretical reason for such a collusion--Annoura and Masuri are Black Ajah, Seonid is not. It's a guess, true, but it's the only thing that allows for those two to be acting together, yet exclude the other. On every other thing that might bring Aes Sedai together, yet exclude a third, they differ--Ajah, allegiances, history, temperament. If this is true it provides a stepping stone--Who would Masuri and Annoura interested in? becomes...

 

Who would the Black Ajah be interested in?

 

As I see it there are three options here.

 

1. A random darkfriend.

2. One of the Forsaken.

3. Another Black sister.

 

1. A Random Darkfriend.

 

This is the least likely to my mind. Why would two Aes Sedai need to meet so many times with some random darkfriend? There's nothing against it, but nothing for it either.

 

2. One of the Forsaken.

 

People have been suggesting this one for years. One of the Forsaken (usually Demandred, the go-to guy for unexplained plots) is manipulating Masema's rabid followers in order to spread chaos. At first glance it seems reasonable--they have been instructed to let the Lord of Chaos rule after all. The problem with this suggestion is that manipulating a mad man and his zealous mob would take way too much constant attention and subtle manipulation. It would be a full time job even for one of the Forsaken, and for its effects its just not worth their effort--oh, it creates chaos, but not on a grand enough scale to keep one of the big boys occupied full time.

 

Masema is just not a big enough fish. Now thats not to say that one of the Forsaken is not involved, just that they won't be doing it all themselves. Either way I don't think it's Demandred. He is a general, direct action is his game--manipulating the fear and hatred of a pseudo-religious following, that’s much subtler--say something a spider would dream up.... which brings us to...

 

TGS UPDATE: The glowing figure does suggest that one of the Forsaken is at least involved. I'd still maintain the point that whoever was behind Shiny Rand was not involved on a day to day basis. The points above stand.

 

3. Another Black Sister. Or two.

 

Specifically, Berylla Neron and Rianna Andomeran.

 

In tFoH Moghedian assumes control of Liandrin's crew and gives them seperate jobs. For the most part we know what those jobs were; Ispan and Falion were sent to Ebou Dar. Eldrith, Asne, Chesmal, Marillin and Temaille accompanied her north, and later continued north to Caemlyn. This leave Rianna, Berylla and Jeaine. I exclude Jeaine because of her reaction to her instructions compared to the other two.

 

From where she stood, Liandrin could see their faces even if their mouths moved soundlessly for her. Plainly each woman was receiving orders the others knew nothing of. The faces told little, though. Rianna merely listened, a touch of relief in her eyes, bowed her head in assent and went. Marillin looked surprised, and then eager, but she had been a Brown, and Browns could be enthusiastic over anything that allowed them a chance to unearth some moldy bit of lost knowledge. Jeaine Caide donned a slow mask of horror, shaking her head at first and trying to cover herself and that disgustingly sheer gown, but Moghedien's face hardened, and Jeaine nodded hurriedly and fled, if not as eagerly as Marillin, just as quickly. Berylla Naron, lean almost to scrawniness and as fine a manipulator and plotter as there was, and Falion Bhoda, long-faced and cold despite her obvious fear, showed as little expression as Rianna had. Ispan Shefar, like Liandrin from Tarabon, though dark-haired, actually kissed Moghedien's hem before she rose.

 

[tFoH--18--A Hound of Darkness]

 

Berylla and Rianna both react calmly--indeed Berylla is compared to Rianna in her calmness, whilst Jeaine is horrified at her instructions. So it's just Berylla and Rianna that I suggest. But...

 

What makes this more likely than any other job Moghedian might have assigned?

 

1. Timing. Masema was just coming into his own as a frothing at the mouth religious leader at that time. Events in Ghealdin were becoming truly unstuck and the chaos was slipping south. Other nations were taking note. Effectibely Masema was entering the big boy game, and that was bound to attract notice.

 

2. Location. Moghedian was in a perfect position to be aware of Masema at this point. She was in Amadicia and planning to go north--straight towards him. She'd laid plans about going north also. In doing so she'd have to have encountered talk of Masema.

 

3. Temprement. Berylla is cited by Liandrin as being a deft manipulator and plotter. Rianna, a White, was described as cold with an eye that saw deep into you. Those two would be perfect for this, and Moghedian would be exactly the sort of person who would see it. A deft manipulator and a person who could perceive a persons flaws could tweak a growing mob in exactly the right ways to ensure it grows--they also explain Masema's ongoing survival--a mob should not have held up so well, but with two Aes Sedai, deft at politics, hamstringing the opposition....

 

Conclusions

 

So my theory is thus. Moghedian sent Berylla and Rianna to Masema in order that they ensure he continues in causing his chaos. Masuri and Annoura are black and have been meeting up with Berylla and Rianna to plot. One of the Forsaken may keeping tabs on this, and influencing it as well.

 

One Final Question

 

How was Masuri able to attend so many meetings without the Wise Ones knowing it? Answer... she almost probably couldn't.  ;D

 

[Stevros]

Here's a horrible thought.  What if somehow the "rule" that Demandred considers secure is somehow over the Band?  The Band is one of the very few major entities in the whole world where we have no clues who is a darkfriend.  (The only other is the Aiel Wise Ones.)  This seems terribly suspicious.

 

Check out some of the discussion regarding Demandred in the forsaken link.

 

This quote is from a while ago.

So everyone is fine with Demandred is with the Borderlanders theory?

 

I disagree, Demandred Deals with proxies so he wont be involved with any one place, it will be multiple places.

 

I think Demandred in Shara theory is more likely than Borderlanders.

The other main contenders are in my opinion:

 

1. He has taken control of one of the leading factions in Seanchan. (supported by his and Semi's liking to work together).

2. He has control of an army in Murandy. (No evidence for this except we know Roedran was trying to unite Murandy by creating an army and we have heard nothing about what happend to the army.)

3. He is one of the leading commanders in the part of the Band NOT with Mat. (No evidence just its an army we know to be in play that we do not know huge amounts about.)

4. He is impersonating Weiramon. (The guy seems too stupid to be real.)

 

[Mr Ares]

I think that it was past tine for Masema to die. We got confirmation that he was being manipulated by the Shadow (he thinks that Rand instructed him to kill Perrin). Was this Morriden or Denandred?

Well that, like his memory issues (as mentioned by deathgate) could just be examples of his insanity. However, if it was one of the Chosen, I would guess Moggy or Cyndane on Moridin's orders - he has them to run errands for him, so he doesn't need to do them himself, and Graendal did think that they were making attempts to see Moridin's orders about Perrin and Mat dying were fulfilled. Nudging Masema into making a move against Perrin seems possible. If Demandred was involved, Masema is certainly not his main project, given that his rule is secure and he has an army, but Masema's army has just been destroyed.

[Leezus]

 

 

I think Demandred in Shara theory is more likely than Borderlanders.

The other main contenders are in my opinion:

 

1. He has taken control of one of the leading factions in Seanchan. (supported by his and Semi's liking to work together).

2. He has control of an army in Murandy. (No evidence for this except we know Roedran was trying to unite Murandy by creating an army and we have heard nothing about what happend to the army.)

3. He is one of the leading commanders in the part of the Band NOT with Mat. (No evidence just its an army we know to be in play that we do not know huge amounts about.)

4. He is impersonating Weiramon. (The guy seems too stupid to be real.)

 

I like all of these ideas, but I have to doubt most them, simply because of the absence of a POV from him. In fact, I think Weiramon is more likely than any of those. If Demandred were in an obscure position like controlling an army in Murundy or in Shara or commanding in the Band, I don't think there would be a reason to keep it a secret from the readers for so long. They would be surprising I suppose, but not really last-minute-plot-twist material. Nah, I think he will pop up somewhere much more surprising.

 

Shara does seem reasonable, since we've heard nothing else about them, but why keep it secret so long?

[coteaz]

It would be interesting, once rand and the seanchan make a truce, and they decide to start mobilizing for TG and the battle against the trollocs, demandred pops out of a gateway with hundreds of thousands of Sharans and hundreds of channelers.

[Corvinus]

Based on what happened in TGS, I am not so sure that Masuri is Black. Annoura is still in the ropes.

 

Egwene looked over the entire list. We are told of her reactions at several names, as well as her relief when none of the sisters sworn to her, or none the 10 ferrets names were on the list. But there is not mention of any of the Aes Sedai that had been sent to Rand, and who had eventually sworn to Rand. IMO, if any of those were Black, I think there would have been a mention about them. Of course, Verin did not find all the Black sisters, but she was close, and it is unlikely that Masuri is one of the ones Verin missed, especially since she is Brown.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Egwene hasn't had any contact with Rand for a very long time.  She really doesn't know who swore to him.

 

We know that Elza was black, and that she did swear to Rand.

 

Verin's list may not be as complete as we hope.

[Stevros]

Also Annoura was not sent to Rand she has been with Berelain and it is fairly unlikely that Egwene would even know she was there as Rand only finds out after he returns from capture (well after Egwene is recalled to Salidar). Things are mounting up and not in her favor.