Verin (Full Book Spoilers)

[Jareth Bixx]

Ah Verin. One of my all time favorite characters, and indeed the completion of her arc in tGS left me jumping around like a moron in giddy glee. Very infrequently after reading a reveal in a book had I ever felt so vindicated about my personal thoughts on a character. I am quite frequently wrong about a great many things, but I was spot on with my assessment of Verin being not only Black Ajah, but working the whole "bad but not bad, destroy the Shadow from the inside" angle.

Several high school discussions thought I was crazy for that line of reasoning. Take THAT 10th grade literature studies group! Awesome.

 

I am quite curious to see what else her notes contain, and I wouldn't be surprised now someone has brought it up, to see Verin summoned by the Horn. Though I admit that when I first read Egwene's remark about Verin's soul being pure white, I took it as meaning Egwene, and indeed the Aes Sedai she represented as the Amyrlin forgave Verin and held no animosity to wards her...

 

Thomas(?) too?! Even so, Verin rocks.

[dholm]

What if Verin couldn't remove the Oaths even with the Oath Rod -- as long as her intent with removing them was to betray the Black Ajah? It would fit in perfectly with how the Oaths work. As long as the intention isn't to "betray" -- i.e. Galina, Talene -- it's possible, but if it is...

 

I like that interpretation, even if it will never be proven.

[Jemlin]

Bah. Verin is dead. It makes her more of a Hero. Your theories have no evidence!!! *flails*

 

Well the evidence is:

 

1.  Verin did not give Egwene that carved flower Angreal -  Why set her to such a gigantic task and not give her ALL the tools that she (Eggy) needs to do the job.

 

2.  Verin is obviously smarter that the average AS - so it is hard to believe that in 70 years she never found the opportunity to test her OR / oath removal theory.

 

3.  Both Mat and Eggy make mental note in their separate POVs that Verin was scamming / putting on a show.

 

My discounting of your evidence is mostly in jest.

 

I can't see any reason, plot wise, why Verin would have really faked her death.  Also, I think Eguwene's test of the breath was adequate enough. MoM can not disquise someone not breathing, and her own POV mentioned there was the possibility of a drug that could slow the breathing down.  You can't just prevent breathing completely, otherwise you are, well, dead. =]

 

[lillcheese]

The one thing I can't figure out in this, why does Verin leave Tomas behind in tGH?  If he was really trying to get redemption as well, why wouldn't she want him there?

[WolfDragonFox]

If i'm not mistaken we don't even see The Rebel Spy AS that took Verin's body when Egwene takes the seat, I think the complete omission of a "here's what I did w/ the body" discussion will show up as Verin not being dead and she planned this exit with Laras so that she can sneak up and catch Messana.  And BTW RJ said in an interview two things that I think are very interesting,

 

1. We have enough info if we look hard enough, that we can identify Demandred

2. We have enough clues to identify who killed Asmodean

 

I gotta keep digging w/ the rest of you to find out the answer to 1 but i'm almost certain now that it will be revealed that Verin is the killer of Asmo!

[analyticalkeys]

If i'm not mistaken we don't even see The Rebel Spy AS that took Verin's body when Egwene takes the seat, I think the complete omission of a "here's what I did w/ the body" discussion will show up as Verin not being dead and she planned this exit with Laras so that she can sneak up and catch Messana.  And BTW RJ said in an interview two things that I think are very interesting,

 

1. We have enough info if we look hard enough, that we can identify Demandred

2. We have enough clues to identify who killed Asmodean

 

I gotta keep digging w/ the rest of you to find out the answer to 1 but i'm almost certain now that it will be revealed that Verin is the killer of Asmo!

 

How can we identify Demandred if he hasn't been seen in the first 11 books... and RJ unfortunately wasn't around to finish up the 12th. I want to see a quote on that.

[Ryamano]

I remember in the first books people saying that a circle of 13 + a myrddraal could turn someone to the shadow even against his will Maybe that's what happened to Verin? Maybe that's why she didn't use the oath rod? Maybe not all BA follow this ritual, only the not so trustful ones.

[Eleint]

Nah.  Turning via Myddraal greatly increases all negative facets of the personality and decreases all positive.  According to RJ, anyway -- and that someone who had it happen wouldn't want to convert back.  He does say it might be possible to do so, though is rather dubious about it.

 

If Verin were converted in this way, there's no way in heck that she'd have done all that she did.

[Ryamano]

I'm thinking about why Verin didn't use the oath rod before, in the 70 years she's been hunting black Ajah.

 

We know only what one oath of the Black Ajah is (to not reveal the Dark One's secrets to non-DF until the hour of her death). But there probbly are more oaths. And considering that every BA knows that the oath rod can take away the oaths and replace them with others, not changing in any way their appearances, they probably have a way to counteract possible spies/infiltrators. Much the same way Egwene used several questions to prove that Sheriam could lie, the BA could demand that other BA Aes Sedai do something (or don't do something) to prove that they are the real deal. They wouldn't do that each time they met (much the same way Egwene doesn't start asking questions all the time at that pace), but maybe once a year?

 

If there was such a ceremony or test Verin would need to be under the BA oath on that occasion. And if that occasion was random, she'd need to be under the BA oath all the time. Or at least until the time she'd reveal all her life's work, ousting the BA. She did look for the oath rod when she got in the WT, but couldn't find it because it was already in use (by the BA hunters). So she resorted to her back-up plan (killing herself with poison before Mat opened the letter with her instructions, which probably contain DO secrets as well).

[wvlr2]

I'm thinking about why Verin didn't use the oath rod before, in the 70 years she's been hunting black Ajah.

 

We know only what one oath of the Black Ajah is (to not reveal the Dark One's secrets to non-DF until the hour of her death). But there probbly are more oaths. And considering that every BA knows that the oath rod can take away the oaths and replace them with others, not changing in any way their appearances, they probably have a way to counteract possible spies/infiltrators. Much the same way Egwene used several questions to prove that Sheriam could lie, the BA could demand that other BA Aes Sedai do something (or don't do something) to prove that they are the real deal. They wouldn't do that each time they met (much the same way Egwene doesn't start asking questions all the time at that pace), but maybe once a year?

 

If there was such a ceremony or test Verin would need to be under the BA oath on that occasion. And if that occasion was random, she'd need to be under the BA oath all the time. Or at least until the time she'd reveal all her life's work, ousting the BA. She did look for the oath rod when she got in the WT, but couldn't find it because it was already in use (by the BA hunters). So she resorted to her back-up plan (killing herself with poison before Mat opened the letter with her instructions, which probably contain DO secrets as well).

 

No - Both AS  and Black AS did not know that the OR would remove the Oaths - until the BA hunters tried it.    Also from Galina's assorted POVs she is not sure that One OR can remove a different ORs - oaths.

 

I thing RJ stated that the DO uses a different method to remove Standard Oaths and administer his Dark oaths.    Also Verin stated that the DO did not care if his agents killed each other.

 

So what I suggested (in another thread) is that in her 70 years, surely Verin could have found/made an opportunity to used MoM and capture one of the BA that she found.  She then could have had that BA use the OR to test removing that BAs Dark Oaths.  Of course she would have had to kill the woman afterwards - but that would hardly have been a loss.

 

Or why couldn't she have waited a few more hours before telling Eggy & drinking the poison? 

[Jemlin]

I'm thinking about why Verin didn't use the oath rod before, in the 70 years she's been hunting black Ajah.

 

We know only what one oath of the Black Ajah is (to not reveal the Dark One's secrets to non-DF until the hour of her death). But there probbly are more oaths. And considering that every BA knows that the oath rod can take away the oaths and replace them with others, not changing in any way their appearances, they probably have a way to counteract possible spies/infiltrators. Much the same way Egwene used several questions to prove that Sheriam could lie, the BA could demand that other BA Aes Sedai do something (or don't do something) to prove that they are the real deal. They wouldn't do that each time they met (much the same way Egwene doesn't start asking questions all the time at that pace), but maybe once a year?

 

If there was such a ceremony or test Verin would need to be under the BA oath on that occasion. And if that occasion was random, she'd need to be under the BA oath all the time. Or at least until the time she'd reveal all her life's work, ousting the BA. She did look for the oath rod when she got in the WT, but couldn't find it because it was already in use (by the BA hunters). So she resorted to her back-up plan (killing herself with poison before Mat opened the letter with her instructions, which probably contain DO secrets as well).

 

No - Both AS  and Black AS did not know that the OR would remove the Oaths - until the BA hunters tried it.    Also from Galina's assorted POVs she is not sure that One OR can remove a different ORs - oaths.

 

I thing RJ stated that the DO uses a different method to remove Standard Oaths and administer his Dark oaths.    Also Verin stated that the DO did not care if his agents killed each other.

 

So what I suggested (in another thread) is that in her 70 years, surely Verin could have found/made an opportunity to used MoM and capture one of the BA that she found.   She then could have had that BA use the OR to test removing that BAs Dark Oaths.   Of course she would have had to kill the woman afterwards - but that would hardly have been a loss.

 

Or why couldn't she have waited a few more hours before telling Eggy & drinking the poison?   

 

Um, false.  The BA would HAVE to know the Oaths could be removed, because otherwise, not a single one of them could tell a Lie.

 

They HAD to have released the original oaths, in order to then be able to lie and cause harm to folks.

 

Verin most likely never released herself of the Dark Oaths before because she was in her research mission, and there might have been the opportunity for them to become aware that she had removed herself form them.

 

Lets also remember that, prior to recent events, only Sitters and probably Ajah heads had access to the Oath Rod.  Verin would not have been able to openly reach the rod, and until recently, she did not know how to Travel.

 

[professorskar1]

Hrm...it's been a while since I've read the entire series...at least a year, so I may be rusty.

 

I seem to recall a BA POV scene where they thought to themselves something about releasing themselves from the old Oaths, and taking "a new trinity" (I'm thinking this is Galina for some reason?)  So I think it's obvious that BA are released from the original oaths (like someone else said...they can lie), and take new oaths on the rod (they have the ageless look).

 

I also thought for some reason that the ageless look is lessened/increased based on the amount of oaths taken.  Like someone who took one oath would look slightly different than someone who took three, etc. 

 

Finally...I also thought Darkfriends in general were taken to SG in order to make their oaths to the Dark One, or at the very least, are forced to make oaths.  It would stand to reason then that a Black Ajah member is: one, bound by whatever general Darkfriend oaths that all DFs take, as well as the Black Ajah specific oath rod oaths.  I thought that's what Verin was referring to when she mentioned something about her oaths being "very distinct."

 

Obviously, whatever oaths all Darkfriends take aren't taken on an oath rod, since not all Darkfriends are channelers (can't remember but I'm like 99% sure non-channelers can't be bound by an Oath Rod).  But, I'm under the impression that the oaths are more than just words and something is specifically done to the newly minted Darkfriend.  Thus Fades can track and recognize Darkfriends, as well as Fain.  They have something (meta)physically done to their soul.

 

On a more Verin related note...I personally wonder exactly WHAT crimes she has committed as a Black Ajah.  She seemed to be up there on the ladder, and Sheriam's reaction of "I never thought it would be HER of all people" when she found out Verin was a double agent seems to imply she's done some pretty bad things.  There's certainly a number of crimes we could speculate on...all the way back to New Spring, any number of BA related crimes could be pinned on Verin.  And in addition I'm sure there are a number of unspecified things she's done (torture and murder almost certainly).

 

She must've had some stomach to do all the things she did while still trying to serve the Light.

 

As for Perrin and the hammer prophecy...it is very interesting Verin knew about this because it seemed to be a Seanchan specific/Essanik cycle prophecy that wouldn't be known to many on the main continent.

[Random Man]

 

I personally wonder exactly WHAT crimes she has committed as a Black Ajah.  She seemed to be up there on the ladder, and Sheriam's reaction of "I never thought it would be HER of all people" when she found out Verin was a double agent seems to imply she's done some pretty bad things.  There's certainly a number of crimes we could speculate on...all the way back to New Spring, any number of BA related crimes could be pinned on Verin.  And in addition I'm sure there are a number of unspecified things she's done (torture and murder almost certainly).

 

She must've had some stomach to do all the things she did while still trying to serve the Light.

 

I would consider her a prime suspect for sending the Drakghar against Moiraine in TGH -- at Fal Dara she had an idea of what Moiraine was up to, and as a Brown would have known where the sisters Vandene and Adelas lived. She also would have probably had the knowledge for the weave to ward a Shadowspawn. Now, that also leads us to another question: if she sent the Drakghar, did she do so willingly, or was she ordered to? She may have been ordered to stay close to Rand, and to do so, Moiraine would have to be dispatched. If Verin sent the beast willingly, she might have either been trying to warn Moiraine about the Black Ajah (although not sure if sending a warning by trying to kill someone would violate the oath not to affect a betrayel), or might have been trying to replace Moiraine and cover up her lie to Rand.

[Graendals favourite]

In retrospect, I think Verin warned Moiraine about herself when she said her "Moiraine sent me" comment. It was completely unnecessary, otherwise. I think Verin had been fairly active as Black, how else could she learn about them, perhaps made her way to the Supreme Council itself. It would have been pointless of her to risk her studies by holding back too much from the Black Ajah.

 

 

Oh, I don't think even BA get to go to SG and the Pit of Doom, that is probably done only if something especial needs doing. Alviarin revealed as much when talking to Fain.

[WolfDragonFox]

I know this is out of left field but I believe that in the letters to either Mat, or of he gets one, Perrin, will contain a nice little list of all the darkfriends out their that want to turn back to the light like her and Tomas and remember she was at Falme with Rand and company when she quoted: Five ride forth and four return.  I believe she knows the one not returning would be Ingtar and knew he was on the verge of good and something to believe in for the Light again in Rand.  I wonder if this will come true because the way most Darkfiends seem to turn back to the light is with self sacrifice so what if these darkfriends get orders from Mat to ambush at a vital point in the fight.  Hmmm, its far out there i know but could be awesome.

[Mr Ares]

Luckers had a theory on Verin's motive - it was that she was aiming to have AS support him, but not control him. So she constantly undermines the attempts of AS such as Moiraine and Siuan to control him (such as the lie), but is not against them helping him. We do look for motive, sometimes, but we can make mistakes.

Boy doesn't that sound like the description of a hero bound to the wheel? Verin's motives have always seemed difficult to ascertain. Didn't Cadsuane describe her as 'a woman of many masks' or something along those lines when she took off in KoD (and did Cadsuane know something?)?

 

Verin being tossed around by the pattern to keep Rand free to fulfill his destiny sure seems to fit.

Does it sound like the description of a Hero bound to the Wheel? Not really, no. The Heroes are part of the Pattern's self-correcting mechanism, so apparently Verin's part would be correcting Rand's thread? Surely you'd need someone to correct Verin's, and someone to correct that thread, and so on. Seems more likely Verin was doing what she was doing for her own reasons, not the Wheel's.

[Xaris]

On a more Verin related note...I personally wonder exactly WHAT crimes she has committed as a Black Ajah.  She seemed to be up there on the ladder, and Sheriam's reaction of "I never thought it would be HER of all people" when she found out Verin was a double agent seems to imply she's done some pretty bad things.  There's certainly a number of crimes we could speculate on...all the way back to New Spring, any number of BA related crimes could be pinned on Verin.  And in addition I'm sure there are a number of unspecified things she's done (torture and murder almost certainly).

 

I fing the statement made by Sheriam peculiar because if she knows Verin is black that means she is one of the other two in Verin's group or the one outside the group of sheriam that she knows about. Since there are about 200 BA's it's a small chance that 2 of the major BA revealed in this book know each other. So did Sheriam know Verin was BA or did she just write Verin of as someone who was not important?

[deathgate]

 

I fing the statement made by Sheriam peculiar because if she knows Verin is black that means she is one of the other two in Verin's group or the one outside the group of sheriam that she knows about. Since there are about 200 BA's it's a small chance that 2 of the major BA revealed in this book know each other. So did Sheriam know Verin was BA or did she just write Verin of as someone who was not important?

 

Sheriam might not have known Verin was black and was surprised about both that and that she betrayed them. Sort of good grief I never suspected she was one of us and then she ends up getting me killed to boot.

[Shard]

 

I fing the statement made by Sheriam peculiar because if she knows Verin is black that means she is one of the other two in Verin's group or the one outside the group of sheriam that she knows about. Since there are about 200 BA's it's a small chance that 2 of the major BA revealed in this book know each other. So did Sheriam know Verin was BA or did she just write Verin of as someone who was not important?

 

Sheriam might not have known Verin was black and was surprised about both that and that she betrayed them. Sort of good grief I never suspected she was one of us and then she ends up getting me killed to boot.

 

I agree with Deathgate about Verin, I don't think Sheriam knew that she was BA. I think Verin's game and trade has always been information she'd use it to find out who each BA sister was preparing for the day she could reveal them all.

[Graendals favourite]

Or Sheriam or both were in the Supreme Council.

[WolfDragonFox]

My opinion on this matter is that Sheriam DID KNOW that she was BA and the reason she said I never expected her was because our fantastic Verin did some Extremely Apprehensible deeds in her years as BA and is how she rose high in the BA ranks.  She had to make it look good so that no one could ever suspect her true mission!

 

I fing the statement made by Sheriam peculiar because if she knows Verin is black that means she is one of the other two in Verin's group or the one outside the group of sheriam that she knows about. Since there are about 200 BA's it's a small chance that 2 of the major BA revealed in this book know each other. So did Sheriam know Verin was BA or did she just write Verin of as someone who was not important?

 

Sheriam might not have known Verin was black and was surprised about both that and that she betrayed them. Sort of good grief I never suspected she was one of us and then she ends up getting me killed to boot.

 

I agree with Deathgate about Verin, I don't think Sheriam knew that she was BA. I think Verin's game and trade has always been information she'd use it to find out who each BA sister was preparing for the day she could reveal them all.

[WolfDragonFox]

My opinion on this matter is that Sheriam DID KNOW that she was BA and the reason she said I never expected her was because our fantastic Verin did some Extremely Apprehensible deeds in her years as BA and is how she rose high in the BA ranks.  She had to make it look good so that no one could ever suspect her true mission!

 

The above is my reply: don't know how i got it mixed in with the Quote i was disputing...lol

[Jemlin]

 

On a more Verin related note...I personally wonder exactly WHAT crimes she has committed as a Black Ajah.  She seemed to be up there on the ladder, and Sheriam's reaction of "I never thought it would be HER of all people" when she found out Verin was a double agent seems to imply she's done some pretty bad things.  There's certainly a number of crimes we could speculate on...all the way back to New Spring, any number of BA related crimes could be pinned on Verin.  And in addition I'm sure there are a number of unspecified things she's done (torture and murder almost certainly).

 

Verin seemed to be a bit smarter than the average Aes Sedai.

 

that being said, I have a feeling that she could have easily committed BA related crimes that, in the end, served to support the Light.  Just like, many BA did crimes in the name of the Light, that ultimately, served the Dark One's mission.  I think its safe to assume that the pendulum can swing both ways.

 

[Sharaman]

Verin certainly had no compunction about murder. She contemplated killing Cadsuane and Katerine without batting an eyelash and she fondly remembers offing a DF with a smile that reminded him of his "own dear mother". She would probably have been as high in the council of the BA as she wanted to be. She'd been a member for a very long time, and she is very high IQ in general as well as being amoral. What odds that she invented the cipher the BA use? Most of them are silly little twits who wouldn't know how to concoct a strong cipher. Verin OTOH could do so.

[Shard]

My opinion on this matter is that Sheriam DID KNOW that she was BA and the reason she said I never expected her was because our fantastic Verin did some Extremely Apprehensible deeds in her years as BA and is how she rose high in the BA ranks.  She had to make it look good so that no one could ever suspect her true mission!

 

The above is my reply: don't know how i got it mixed in with the Quote i was disputing...lol

 

Sharaman does make some good points I think mostly Verin doesn't kill the innocent. Katerine and the DF are sworn to the DO so their deaths would not be acts of evil. Cadsuane she wasn't sure of and didn't actually kill her.

 

Though I have a feeling this is something were never going to know 100% probably one of those mystery's that RJ and now Brandon would love for us to be chewing on for years. I'll just finish by saying at the moment of her death she did seem concerned that she did the right thing and was a good person for it.

 

Sheriam on the other hand knew she was evil admitted to it on her moment of knowing she was about to die.