Cadsuane, Nynaeve and Min. (Full Book Spoilers)

[Swigaro]

 

I don't see Nynaeve crying over anyone's body but Lan. Not that she won't cry if any of the others die, but not in such a heartbroken manner.

 

Add to that Min's first (only?) viewing of Lan in EoTW where she sees Seven Towers and "a babe holding a sword" (paraphrased from memory). Since her viewings always refer to the future (as confirmed by RJ), I expect the baby will be Lan's son, receiving the Malkeri king sword after the death of his father, similar to how Lan got the sword.

 

I believe that Lan will die trying to capture or attack whoever is occupying Malkier and his body and sword will be brought back for burial.

 

 

The only problem is that, to our knowledge, Nyneve is not pregnant and there seems to be little likelihood that she will meet up with him before the festivities of Tarmon Gaidon begin.  Thus, if the vision is of Lan's son, he can't die before the last battle.

[Crael123]

Can Min see viewings around herself?

[stormcrow]

She might cry if the AS who holds Lan's bond is dead. Gaidin die shortly after their AS pass away.

 

Can Min see viewings around herself?

No.

[Ashaman DeRouge]

She might cry if the AS who holds Lan's bond is dead. Gaidin die shortly after their AS pass away.

 

 

 

...Lan didn't.  ;D

[wvlr2]

...Lan didn't.  ;D

 

And Moraine didn't

[Ashaman DeRouge]

Alright, thats what I get for being smart. But according to Lan, and the broken bond, she is dead, thusly the effects of her death in this scenario play out like normal.

[stormcrow]

But Lan's bond wasn't broken, it was just transferred to someone else, so to him it didn't even feel as if Moraine had died.

[Crael123]

She might cry if the AS who holds Lan's bond is dead. Gaidin die shortly after their AS pass away.

 

 

 

...Lan didn't.  ;D

 

no lan won't he doesnt give a crap about his aes sedai nyneave is his life now. also he didnt when moirane died and they were together for like 20 years

[Ashaman DeRouge]

Anyway, to the point, if Nynave knows about Lan's AS kicking the bucket, I'm fairly sure her first instinct would be to bond Lan.

 

Could be crying over Egwene? Matt, Rand, and Perrin can't really die, it would unbalance the three, Egwene seems to be the only 'Expendable' two riversian. Unless it's Rand, of course.

[lillcheese]

I thought Nyn was crying over Tam's body.  That vision probably happened right as Rand started to channel at Tam.  She'd feel pretty guilty over falling in with Cadsuane's plan only to have Tam die as a result.  Min didn't know what the vision meant, which to my understanding means that it was not a certain future.

[analyticalkeys]

I thought Nyn was crying over Tam's body.  That vision probably happened right as Rand started to channel at Tam.  She'd feel pretty guilty over falling in with Cadsuane's plan only to have Tam die as a result.  Min didn't know what the vision meant, which to my understanding means that it was not a certain future.

 

Except, so far, it appears that none of Min's visions have not come true, and I feel like this isn't the exception, nor do I think there will be one.

[elec1cele]

She might cry if the AS who holds Lan's bond is dead. Gaidin die shortly after their AS pass away.

...Lan didn't.  ;D

 

He prolly would have if Moraine hadn't had the bond transferred to Myrelle, who then essentially used the compulsion part of the bond to force him to come to her in Salidar.

 

From the accounts we see of him when he shows up, until he got sent after Nyn, he would have gladly gone off and died(well gotten himself killed in the blight anyways).

[seraphim]

I thought Nyn was crying over Tam's body.  That vision probably happened right as Rand started to channel at Tam.  She'd feel pretty guilty over falling in with Cadsuane's plan only to have Tam die as a result.  Min didn't know what the vision meant, which to my understanding means that it was not a certain future.

 

Except, so far, it appears that none of Min's visions have not come true, and I feel like this isn't the exception, nor do I think there will be one.

 

Min said that when she knew what a vision meant- it would come true.  Not everything she sees can/has come true-think about Egwene and Gawyn. Min saw two separate visions for them- one or the other would happen -but not both.

[AvroChris]

But Lan's bond wasn't broken, it was just transferred to someone else, so to him it didn't even feel as if Moraine had died.

 

How come he got the whole "wanting/not caring about death" thing about him then? There was a lot of "death in his eyes" descriptions of Lan...

As far as the bond was concerned, Moiraine was dead or stilled.

Also remember that Nynaeve will outlive Lan by hundreds of years...so it could be just a red herring. I wouldn't bet on it though.

[Swigaro]

Because Moiraine set the bond to pass to Myrelle at the moment of her death.  Thus Lan got the worst of all possible worlds.  The bond snaps when the Doorway melts (making him believe she died).  He gets the Bond Breaking Death-Wish, but can't do anything about it, because his half of the bond goes right to Myrelle.

[stormcrow420]

y'know I've read all the books several times, and I still can't keep anything straight. Normally I don't come to forums looking for answers but I'm hoping one of the WoT blackbelts here can help me out.

 

Question 1 - Is is possible that Sorelia is a Darkfriend? She knew about the male a'dam in TGS before Semi got it around Rand's neck. With the Wise Ones devotion to Rand, I guess I don't understand how she could let it sit there. I'm not sure if we have ever had a Sorelia POV.

 

Question 2 - I vaguely remember Nynaeve throwing a male a'dam into the ocean back in her adventures in Ebou Dar. Where did this one come from again? Do the Seanchan have more? Or is this a Randland ter'angreal?

 

Question 3 - Is the jury still out on Cadsuane being Black Ajah? I know we have here associating with Black sisters in A New Spring, and Siuan suspects here. Verin didn't list here, but Verin has only been black for 70 years I thought, and Cadsuane has been out of public life for 60 right? What other evidence do we have to suggest she may be black, or have we confirmed she isn't? Her POVs seem to suggest she's on the light side.

 

We need a chart or something.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

Question 1 - Is is possible that Sorelia is a Darkfriend? She knew about the male a'dam in TGS before Semi got it around Rand's neck. With the Wise Ones devotion to Rand, I guess I don't understand how she could let it sit there. I'm not sure if we have ever had a Sorelia POV.

 

Possible?  Yes, but we don't have any evidence that says so.

 

Question 2 - I vaguely remember Nynaeve throwing a male a'dam into the ocean back in her adventures in Ebou Dar. Where did this one come from again? Do the Seanchan have more? Or is this a Randland ter'angreal?

 

They gave the male a'dam to Bayle Domon with instructions for him to drop it into the sea.  His ship got captured by Eaganin before he could do so.  She presented it to Suroth.  That's was how she got raised to the low blood.

 

Question 3 - Is the jury still out on Cadsuane being Black Ajah? I know we have here associating with Black sisters in A New Spring, and Siuan suspects here. Verin didn't list here, but Verin has only been black for 70 years I thought, and Cadsuane has been out of public life for 60 right? What other evidence do we have to suggest she may be black, or have we confirmed she isn't? Her POVs seem to suggest she's on the light side.

 

There is ample evidence that Cadsuane is many very unpleasant things, but nothing to suggest that she is Black.

 

 

[stormcrow420]

 

Question 1 - Is is possible that Sorelia is a Darkfriend? She knew about the male a'dam in TGS before Semi got it around Rand's neck. With the Wise Ones devotion to Rand, I guess I don't understand how she could let it sit there. I'm not sure if we have ever had a Sorelia POV.

 

Possible?  Yes, but we don't have any evidence that says so.

 

Question 2 - I vaguely remember Nynaeve throwing a male a'dam into the ocean back in her adventures in Ebou Dar. Where did this one come from again? Do the Seanchan have more? Or is this a Randland ter'angreal?

 

They gave the male a'dam to Bayle Domon with instructions for him to drop it into the sea.  His ship got captured by Eaganin before he could do so.  She presented it to Suroth.  That's was how she got raised to the low blood.

 

Question 3 - Is the jury still out on Cadsuane being Black Ajah? I know we have here associating with Black sisters in A New Spring, and Siuan suspects here. Verin didn't list here, but Verin has only been black for 70 years I thought, and Cadsuane has been out of public life for 60 right? What other evidence do we have to suggest she may be black, or have we confirmed she isn't? Her POVs seem to suggest she's on the light side.

 

There is ample evidence that Cadsuane is many very unpleasant things, but nothing to suggest that she is Black.

 

 

 

Thanks for your informative responses Bob!

[FanoLan]

 

Question 1 - Is is possible that Sorelia is a Darkfriend? She knew about the male a'dam in TGS before Semi got it around Rand's neck. With the Wise Ones devotion to Rand, I guess I don't understand how she could let it sit there. I'm not sure if we have ever had a Sorelia POV.

 

Possible?  Yes, but we don't have any evidence that says so.

 

Question 2 - I vaguely remember Nynaeve throwing a male a'dam into the ocean back in her adventures in Ebou Dar. Where did this one come from again? Do the Seanchan have more? Or is this a Randland ter'angreal?

 

They gave the male a'dam to Bayle Domon with instructions for him to drop it into the sea.  His ship got captured by Eaganin before he could do so.  She presented it to Suroth.  That's was how she got raised to the low blood.

 

Question 3 - Is the jury still out on Cadsuane being Black Ajah? I know we have here associating with Black sisters in A New Spring, and Siuan suspects here. Verin didn't list here, but Verin has only been black for 70 years I thought, and Cadsuane has been out of public life for 60 right? What other evidence do we have to suggest she may be black, or have we confirmed she isn't? Her POVs seem to suggest she's on the light side.

 

There is ample evidence that Cadsuane is many very unpleasant things, but nothing to suggest that she is Black.

 

 

 

Thanks for your informative responses Bob!

 

Nice gesture, except he did get that one part in bold above a bit wrong.  Egeanin helped Nyn/Elayne retrieve the male a'dam from the Panarch's Palace.  After they determine exactly what it is and that it cannot be destroyed, Nyn asks Domon to drop it in the deepest part of the sea he knows.

 

In a later PoV, Egeanin is talking with Domon about having left Tanchico and how another Seanchan ship approached them and hailed them to come about.  (Curious to me how it is related in a way that Domon's ship was particularly targeted in the turmoil post-collapse of Tanchico - must have been Forsaken involvement.) Egeanin turned over the male a'dam and pretended she intended to do so all along, thus the investiture to low blood.

[Chance]

Interesting arguments on Cad. I really didn't think she was that much out of character. I really thought Tam was the one out of character.  Why and how could Tam be manipulated at all by Cad, when he was going to see his son, that he hasn't seen in forever. That just wasn't solid and wise of Tam.  Also, he didn't follow the advice he gave Rand in EotW. That seemed odd to me. I agree with the prior post, I also was disappointed in the scene between Tam and Rand. I was wanting something epic, and instead, got a bust.

 

I think we saw what Cad is supposed to teach the ashaman now. Not to use balefire.

 

IIRC in a previous book, Cad says something to the effect that Morianne handled Rand wrong, and if she ever met up with her, would tell her so or something.  I like the irony. I also like that Cad has served her purpose now, according to Min's viewing of teaching Rand something. Maybe Rand now can set up an accident for her.

 

I don't think Min's viewing of Nyn is meant to be Lan dying. I think Nyn would cry over any of the Two Rivers people that were in EotW. It's quite possibly Rand, since thats the scene it was in. 

[wasted]

 

Question 3 - Is the jury still out on Cadsuane being Black Ajah?

 

The matter is settled. Cadsuane is not Black.

How do we know this?

 

At some point in one of Verin's POVs she thinks something similar in meaning to the following [can't find a quote now, sure though that someone will] :

 

"... it's nice to finally be sure of Cadsuane ..."

 

That in conjunction with Verin's book, is everything we need.

[aunt_pol]

On Cads - she was always a bossy oul' hoor, and she just finally picked the wrong man to fling around.

 

FortySix - love the idea of her and Tam gettin' saucy together only marginally less than I hate it. (Yuck!) If there ever was a woman needed to be in a Seafolk marriage (command in public, obey in private) it's her.

 

Also, struck by some similarities between Cads & Siuan. Siuan is getting a bit of cop on about her, lately, seems to understand how she *might have* buggered things up a bit. And, she's now realising it mightn't be terrible to actually care about individual people as well as the Last Battle. It would be no harm if Cadsuane saw the light too.

 

On Min - unless everyone really changes, she's gonna need to go a whole hell of a long way further and more forceful than one sentence about not 'MAKING Rand do stuff'. Nyn has shown so much maturity lately, but Cadsuane will just put Min back in her box fairly sharpish.

Also, she's been tucked in Rand's blankets forever now, Elayne & particularly Aviendha barely get a look in. I think it's time, now Rand's not bonkers any more, that she go off to some library somewhere to figure out precisely how he's actually gonna win the Last Battle.

 

Speaking of Elayne, is anyone ever gonna tell Rand he's gonna be a poppa? Wouldn't that have been a good way to make winter's heart feel something??! Typical, of course, that the women have such hateful attitudes as to what the men should be told.

 

On Nynaeve - and the whole scenario about AS precedence/age/power - I can't help but think how bloody annoying her & Elayne were back in Ebou Dar, insisting on precedence over Merilille & co. Now I know the old birds were annoying, too, but isn't it the Wise Ones that have it right? That your strength in the Power is your birth right, but you have to earn respect & standing? That you don't just boss people about because you can? Nynaeve is starting to really deserve high standing, now, but she needs to think that one out a bit.

 

And on Nyn's intended, (know it doesn't belong here, is only one line tho ;)) wouldn't it be just the business if Rand went to fetch Lan, dropped him on top of the Borderlanders and told them they were a pack of useless feckers and he had decided Lan should run their armies. Know it won't happen, but really would love it.

[Sharaman]

 

Question 3 - Is the jury still out on Cadsuane being Black Ajah?

 

The matter is settled. Cadsuane is not Black.

How do we know this?

 

At some point in one of Verin's POVs she thinks something similar in meaning to the following [can't find a quote now, sure though that someone will] :

 

"... it's nice to finally be sure of Cadsuane ..."

 

That in conjunction with Verin's book, is everything we need.

There is Cad's own PoV as well where she regrets letting the BA slip through her fingers (as well as not figuring out what Caraline Damodred's cousin was upto in Borderlands). She's not a nice person but she isn't BA either.

[feliasgrimm]

Cadsuane is slipping. In the distant past, she has always been this rock of stability, although you hear things about situations (like her ornaments) that definitely imply she's not always in control.

 

Cadsuane, above any other Aes Sedai I've seen, has been ALL ABOUT the preservation of the "mythic figure" that aes sedai are supposed to present to the world, going so far as to be critical of nynaeve because of her temper and "lack of showmanship" (my phrase, not hers).

 

She has a number of tricks to facilitate this, and keep in mind that she has a VERY small number of PoV's, especially compared with other characters (one of the reasons I suspect she's black.. the same thing occurred with Verin and Sheriam). Her previous PoVs have ALL pointed to her wanting to maintain her legendary status (the one that I remember most was in cairhein when she used the mirror to ID people walking in and they thought she was like reading their minds or something).

 

She is, however, human. And like semirhage, a prideful one at that. She's also (rarely mentioned) green, and they're notorious for being more emotional than the other ajahs (Myrelle and Alanna being the main examples, but even Adelorna showed it in tGS)

 

Snap to the current:

EVERYONE is on the ropes. Min is trying to figure out if her boyfriend would really kill her. She's always been close to him, but she never *believed* he could be capable of that. She's always thought herself safe from HIM at the very least, and she projected confidence that he'd protect her from anyone outside. That illusion is completely shattered.

 

Cadsuane has just seen him escape the domination band (supposedly impossible) by apparently sheer force of will. Shortly after almost killing his lover with his bare hands, then casually balefiring two women (which he's NEVER done before). Later, he'd go toast Graendal almost casually, nuking an entire palace, mostly innocents. This is all behavior that is COMPLETELY alien to her understanding of him. His threat to kill her holds so much more weight after he's JUST done something impossible, pretty much (apparently) by his direct will influencing the pattern (and we know mat can do it, so why not the STRONGEST TA'VEREN IN THE WORLD?)

 

Everyone around her is shaky. Her constant interrogations of min would tell her that the shadow is winning, the heroes are on the rocks and her ONLY chance at the world surviving is in the hands of a boy who is currently completely sociopathic. The light is - to steal RJ's own analogy - on the ropes and getting pummeled pretty hard.

 

Cadsuane herself has been reduced to tagging along - sight unseen - behind said sociopath, looking for any angle she can find to fix him. Her aes sedai dignity, formerly the only thing she had to hold onto, is practically gone.

 

Her last plan involved using his FATHER to try to patch up the damage. Someone who should know how to reach the boy. Someone who has more experience with him than ANY other (even min doesn't compare, she's only been on the scene for about a year, whilst tam was with him for the previous almost 20).

 

He fails her. She's got nothing left, and Rand very well might kill her for this interference. Game over, in her mind. So she snaps and lashes out in a momentary temper.

 

Its totally within character, if the character isn't one-dimensional. I'm a counselor and this kind of thing is EXACTLY why we try to de-stress people. Implosive Anger... Ever see Anger Management? Fight Club? She's so used to bottling up her emotions that in the last moment when everything goes to hell the little rubber band has been stretched to far, has too much weight resting on it and snaps violently.

 

I didn't have a problem with this scene at all. I thought it was brilliant.

 

It wasn't about showing Cadsuane getting chewed out by Tam and being set in her place. It was about the unflappable being flapped.

[feliasgrimm]

 

Question 3 - Is the jury still out on Cadsuane being Black Ajah?

 

The matter is settled. Cadsuane is not Black.

How do we know this?

 

At some point in one of Verin's POVs she thinks something similar in meaning to the following [can't find a quote now, sure though that someone will] :

 

"... it's nice to finally be sure of Cadsuane ..."

 

That in conjunction with Verin's book, is everything we need.

 

 

Yes, and previous Verin PoVs led people to the Absolute Conclusion that there was no way Verin could have been black (from that same PoV, in fact).

And aside from her own PoV there was nothing to suspect Elza, and every reason to think she was a good guy (she even blasted a forsaken) because she was so hell-bent on getting Rand to the Last Battle.

 

We haven't seen a darkfriend (I'm not counting Verin simply because she was apparently coerced into the BA) who WANTS the DO to lose. But really it's logical. If the DO wants to stop the wheel and kill the snake (which was extensively discussed in the second if not first book), wouldn't that mean his followers are all toast if it happens? MOST of the DO followers aren't necessarily evil, they're just so incredibly self-serving that they may as well be evil. They're not all puppy-eating family killers. Asmodean, a bloody forsaken, was jsut there 'cuz he wanted to learn more music, and when it was obvious he wasn't gonna be able to stay on the dark side, he hung with the light. Many of the darkfriends have killed family members, but when threatened with painful deaths themselves, some degree of self-preservation (and these are selfish people to begin with) sets in.

 

Hell, I'd argue that masema was worse than most darkfriends and he was apparently NOT a darkfriend (by PoVs, and since he's dead now I'm thinking that story's over).

 

If Caddy were black she's more than intelligent enough to come to the conclusion that maybe the Dark One losing this battle isn't such a bad plan.

 

Verin isn't infalliable - she missed at least six blacks, and cadsuane was out of the tower almost longer than Verin was in it. PLUS with BA suspicion at an alltime high, she's probably covering her butt more than normal.

 

The usual dead giveaway for BA is "Great Lord" v. "Dark One", but even Verin thought of him as the Dark One.

 

The borderlands regrets are probably having to do with the fact that Moiraine managed to tie herself to Rand and had Caddy been more aware she'd have gotten the list right then and there - It's a pretty easy leap. The rest of the borderland activity seemed to be BA involved, so I question what she really was doing up there.

 

Siuan and Moiraine both think she's black (it's been expressed in both of their PoVs IIRC). Moiraine tends to be right on these things.

 

Maybe she has to be there at the last battle to balefire Caddy. And that'd give the asha'man a good chuckle AND teach them a valuable lesson. Don't F#$% with the chick that knows balefire.