Cadsuane, Nynaeve and Min. (Full Book Spoilers)

[wvlr2]

No. Cadsuane can do wrong, and does. I think Tam was absolutely right to call her out on it. My problem was in the way she was brought to do wrong. She got dumbed down so Tam could take her, and that was weak. Honestly I think it's the people who hate her who were robbed most by this. Think of how much better it would have been if she hadn't been acting stupid and Tam STILL took her down.

 

I just do not see enough difference in Caddy to worry about.    Sure she "restrained" Tam with the OP but she did nothing beyond that (except verbally).

 

She has always been a bully from my view.   Here she just went a little further and there were significant extenuating circumstances.   She had been watching Rand get slowly worse and worse and had been fighting (in her incorrect way) to turn things around.   When suddenly he took a major leap in the wrong direction - so much so that just looking at him shocked her, then he boots her out.    Follow that with her last straw just broke with Tams royally failed meeting with Rand.

I don't care how much self control you think that Caddy has - you can only play "chicken" with a freight train so long before you got to crack.

 

Add that to the fact that she had just been thinking about herself and Semi and that it would take similar things to make them “crack”.       For Semi it was spanking in front of people who feared her.      Paradoxically for Caddy it was watching herself “loose” Rand.     He is her sole purpose in life.

 

I think the early Caddy parts were true to her character and the slight change only occurred after the Semi collar incident.      That change was well written to show that despite everything she is human and can slip when everything goes wrong for her.  

 

 

 

Edited to add:

 

And Min was clearly from her POV, not working against Rand.    She was keeping an eye on Caddy and Ny.

 

 

What was MUCH more unbelievable in these chapters was that Avi who is bonded to Rand and now just yards away from him.    When Semi was torturing him with the Coller - she could not spare a few moments from "counting her seeds" to run to him?    Come on!    If she was far away I could see the link being dulled by the distance and by the time she took note of it, the event was past.    But she was not far away and he was being physically and emotionally tortured to an extreeme degree, she should have come running or RJ/BS should have had her somehow occupied so that she could not come.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

I was under the impression inverting and reversing were the same thing. I just thought Landane (Cynfear) was using another term from the AoL which Moggy didn't see reason to tell Elayne/Nyn/Eggs.

[Bob T Dwarf]

What was MUCH more unbelievable in these chapters was that Avi who is bonded to Rand and now just yards away from him.    When Semi was torturing him with the Coller - she could not spare a few moments from "counting her seeds" to run to him?     Come on!    If she was far away I could see the link being dulled by the distance and by the time she took note of it, the event was past.    But she was not far away and he was being physically and emotionally tortured to an extreeme degree, she should have come running or RJ/BS should have had her somehow occupied so that she could not come.

 

Interesting catch.  Hadn't considered that.

 

Here's another, "Huh?"  Elza had a Warder.  He was with her.  I don't recall seeing anything about a report of a Warder going berserk after Elza was killed.  There should be more bodies laying around somewhere close to that lodge, and one of them should be his.

[striker]

I was just doing a re-read and had some questions.

 

It is at the part where one of the sisters is questioning Semi and Cads states she is listening in, but she used the trick of inverting her weaves, so the sister inside could not tell she was listening....however she then states the sisters outside the room could see what she was doing, but they did not say anything. 

 

I thought if you inverted your weaves, they could not be seen?  Did I misunderstand this?

 

Also, then when Semi drops the tray, she states she immediately embraces the source - that confused me again - shouldn't she already have been embracing the source to do the listening in the first place?

 

Can someone clarify for me?

 

 

 

IIRC ( I haven't gotten that far on my re-read yet )there was a ward on the room in which they were asking semi questions.  In order for Cadsuane to listen in through the ward she would have to bore through it, which would require the ppl holding the ward to know that she was doing exactly that ( I would assume that the women on the outside of the room were the ones holding the ward ) either that or Cadsuane doesn't know how to make her weaving invisible like the forsaken do, and had to first form the weave then invert it and push it through the ward.

[wvlr2]

Here's another, "Huh?"  Elza had a Warder.  He was with her.  I don't recall seeing anything about a report of a Warder going berserk after Elza was killed.  There should be more bodies laying around somewhere close to that lodge, and one of them should be his.

 

&#&%$@ I ment to mention that!    Thanks for the catch Bob.

[Damodred]

Yeah, the only two things that bothered me throughout the whole book was

 

Avi not doing anything when Rand was being tortured. The fact that I was nearly sweating reading that part and Avi was painting her nails, goes to show that the bonding weave is also being touched by the DO and failing or, as it's said in the film industry, "It was in the script." ie: no good excuse.

 

That and of course Min just giving it a confused thought or two and never speaking up in front of Cads and Nyn while Rand is about to balefire his pops not 3 palace floors away! Hell, what with the unraveling of the pattern it could have switched to 1 palace floor away in the time it took Min to do absolutely nothing!

 

Phew. Good to get off my chest. I loved the book, don't get me wrong, but it just kinda feels like warder bonds have painted the authors into a corner, so they decided to tread over it and ignore the footprints left behind, which in turn, punch me in the eyeballs when I read them.

[Sentinel78]

Here's another, "Huh?"  Elza had a Warder.  He was with her.  I don't recall seeing anything about a report of a Warder going berserk after Elza was killed.  There should be more bodies laying around somewhere close to that lodge, and one of them should be his.

 

Yeah I noticed that too... Either a plot-hole or he died on the spot.  It's mentioned somewhere that the shock of a Warder losing his Aes Sedai can result in instant death sometimes.  In the case of balefire, this would mean that the bond snapped at some point in the past after reality re-shapes itself around the time-hole, so maybe that makes it worse.  I don't think we've ever seen a Warder after his Aes Sedai died from balefire have we?

[FortySix]

Cads and tam are going to fall in love.

[karehiro]

I echo the sentiment that I expected Aviendha to do at least something while Rand was dealing with Semirhage.  But since Aviendha isn't really much part of Rand's story and doesn't really affect it apart from a romantic standpoint, I'm not so surprised that's how it played out.

 

And very nice observation on Elza's warder.  I forgot about that and it should have been addressed.

 

I am really looking forward to Moiraine's meeting with Cadsuane and Nynaeve.  That will provide alot of entertainment, as I'm sure they'll have some interesting things to say.

[TheAngryDruid]

Just a quick comment or two, as I'm going to be generally swimming against the tide here.

 

First, I wanted to tip my hat to the catches on Elza's warder, and Min and Avi not getting beans through the bond. And I also was sad to see Daigan go and also hope Nynaeve/Eggy rework the AS social pecking order.

 

Second, I thought Nynaeve was increasingly awesome in this book. Not perfect, but damn good. She stood up to Rand (mostly) when he dissed Lan. Stood up for Mat with Tuon. And had a good realization with Rand (he IS self-aware) and even considered the possibility he may be right.

 

As for Cads and Min, a tip of the cap to FanoLan. I'm in agreement in the main on Cads and Min. I think the change in Rand (the Darkness, balefire use, etc) has them all on pins and needles a bit.

 

For Min, her POV shows the change in her thinking (she now thinks she's a liability and Rand was right to try to keep her safe) and her willingness to be left behind feeds Rand's guild over strangling her (as we see from his POV). Plus, the new darkness (which she can see too) is unsettling. This is not a healty situation and needs to be sorted out. Still, she IS willing to go with him to get Graendal, and he lets her. And she still stands up for his interests to Nyn and Cads. Min is just unsettled, she'll be fine.

 

Cads. Look, she saw him descending into terminal madness and terminal darkness and had to do something. From her POV, if he didn't turn around, it was disaster anyway, so a big gamble was worth it. And it's hard to argue with her logic. And it worked (barely). Yes, she's got a lot to learn (and hopefully Mo, Min, and Nynaeve will help her), but she's also got a lot to offer and aid. Both to Rand and to the Asha'man. She's had the good of the world, and been on Rand's side consistently from the start, more so than possibly any other non-Two Rivers folk other than Mo, Min, Avi, and Elayne, and maybe Bererlain/Dobraine.

 

I can't stand her manner sometimes as it personifies AS arrogance, but she WAS getting fed up with it as well, as her comments to Nynaeve show (she's the only one who can be salvaged). And as her dismay with Merise and others showed.

 

Plus, spanking Semi was awesome.

 

 

[AvroChris]

Apparantly Aviendha did notice something, but she was asleep or something and by the time she knew what was going on, and started getting help, it was over. Not sure that stands up, but it's there.

[Ranglar]

I want to know how Cadsuane knew that Tam was with Perrin. Tam had not been with Perrin for all that long and even Rand thought he was in the Two Rivers.

 

She probably checked w/ the Two Rivers people who told her Tam was w/ Perrin.

[TheAngryDruid]

Apparantly Aviendha did notice something, but she was asleep or something and by the time she knew what was going on, and started getting help, it was over. Not sure that stands up, but it's there.

 

Good catch.

 

I was thinking on this overnight, and I think maybe Rand's descent into a near emotionless state may have been partly to blame as well.

 

I haven't finished my re-read, so someone may have to help me if Min or Avi remarks on it. But my thinking is that he's so much like a stone, that it is difficult for the women to feel much through the bond.

 

[Sharaman]

Apparantly Aviendha did notice something, but she was asleep or something and by the time she knew what was going on, and started getting help, it was over. Not sure that stands up, but it's there.

Avi first thought it was a nightmare and by the time she realised it was "real" pain, it was over. Some stuff in her PoV about Rand being a skilled and lucky warrior who had bested a forsaken. 

[algspkr]

Anyone else notice that Min had a viewing which probably indicated that Lan is doomed?

[FortySix]

i assumed either avi was sleeping or had learned the aes sedai trick of knotting off the bond, particularly when min was likely to be sleeping with rand in close proximity.

 

 

[analyticalkeys]

Anyone else notice that Min had a viewing which probably indicated that Lan is doomed?

 

It's debatable who's corpse Nynaeve was weeping over. I'm inclined to not believe that it's Lan because that's way too obvious.

[garion]

If Lan dies I think I will burn the entire series because Lan is the best character.

[Red Hand Man]

If Lan dies I think I will burn the entire series because Lan is the best character.

 

You can mourn on the march to Tarmon Gai'don.

[garion]

You can mourn on the march to Tarmon Gai'don

 

Yeah I ain't marching

[GB]

hey everyone

 

just a very random question and didnt know where to post it. someone might already have asked the same question before...so my apologies

 

during nynaeve's testing for accepted, there was mention of "sharina sedai"

 

could she be the same sharina that is a novice?

 

 

[Sharaman]

hey everyone

 

just a very random question and didnt know where to post it. someone might already have asked the same question before...so my apologies

 

during nynaeve's testing for accepted, there was mention of "sharina sedai"

 

could she be the same sharina that is a novice?

 

Nynaeve suspects as much since she mentioned this when she learnt of Sharina Melloy's existence.

 

[Mr Ares]

You can mourn on the march to Tarmon Gai'don

Yeah I ain't marching

You can moonwalk to Tarmon Gai'don if you'd prefer, but I think marching would be easier.

[sdelu]

Anyone else notice that Min had a viewing which probably indicated that Lan is doomed?

 

It's debatable who's corpse Nynaeve was weeping over. I'm inclined to not believe that it's Lan because that's way too obvious.

 

It could be Lan, but it could also be Rand, Mat, Perrin, Tam, and if it was not specified whether it was a male or female it could be Egwene, Elayne, maybe even Min or Aviendha. Or, it could be anyone she failed to save.

 

I think any one of the original Two Rivers crew from TEOTW is a strong possibility, considering she set out specifically to make sure they were safe and protect them. I feel one of them is more likely than Lan. Somehow it being Lan seems a bit too easy, especially considering how much time and effort was put into making Lan seem like he WANTS to die (since the very first book I believe).

 

It seems likely that Lan will find that he wants to live. Of course, then he could choose to sheath the sword finally, which brings us full circle.

 

blah!

[randfandom]

It's debatable who's corpse Nynaeve was weeping over. I'm inclined to not believe that it's Lan because that's way too obvious.

 

It could be Lan, but it could also be Rand, Mat, Perrin, Tam, and if it was not specified whether it was a male or female it could be Egwene, Elayne, maybe even Min or Aviendha. Or, it could be anyone she failed to save.

 

I don't see Nynaeve crying over anyone's body but Lan. Not that she won't cry if any of the others die, but not in such a heartbroken manner.

 

Add to that Min's first (only?) viewing of Lan in EoTW where she sees Seven Towers and "a babe holding a sword" (paraphrased from memory). Since her viewings always refer to the future (as confirmed by RJ), I expect the baby will be Lan's son, receiving the Malkeri king sword after the death of his father, similar to how Lan got the sword.

 

I believe that Lan will die trying to capture or attack whoever is occupying Malkier and his body and sword will be brought back for burial.