Perrin a king? Manatheren?

[mellojoe]

I'm in the middle of a re-read, and I'm really glad I did.

 

A thought came to me.  I know Faile comes from "royalty" and will probably assume the "Broken Crown", right?  But, Perrin also seems destined to be more than just a Queen's husband.  He seems to be growing into quite the leader, himself.

 

His journey back to the Two Rivers, plus all the comments about Manatheren and its former glory...

 

Well, could it be possible that Perrin will finally assume the crown, but back in the Two Rivers, using the banner of Manatheren?  The old blood has a new royal line, legitimized by Faile.

 

What do you think?

[JenLenaMom]

I think Elayne as the Queen of Andor would have something very nasty to say about that.

 

Also he surrendered his claims on Man. to the Seanchan to secure their help rescuing Faile.

 

In short, not gonna happen

[mb]

The highest rank Perrin would have over Two Rivers and Ghealdan I think would be Lord; and that only until Tarmon Gaidon, not any later.

King, I think just over the wolves (by Prophecy) and over Saldaea (through Faile).

 

The only reason Perrin would keep Two Rivers and Ghealdan I think would be if Faile convinces him to.  And Faile probably would not attempt to convince him without gaining the land legally or without planning to gain the land legally.

 

[mellojoe]

That's what I get for thinking.  Lol.

 

I'm doing a re-read... but I'm actually listening to one book on CD.  Its a new experience for me, and leaves me a lot of time to think while it is playing.  Unfortunately "thinking" and "randland" shouldn't go in the same sentance.  Too much going on.  Heh.

[Eamonn]

Greetings Mellojoe, and everyone, this is my first post, am glad so many are devoted to Mr. Robert Jordan's masterpiece (R.I.P.), the finest fantasy work since TLOTR. As to your points, I must disagree with the other learned members; I believe Manetheren will rise again. Ive been reading this series since 1990, and of all the subplots, character developments, political and social upheavals Ive read over the last 19 years in The WOT,ever since reading that passage of the night in Emonds Fields when Moiraine admonished the Two Rivers folk of their lack of courage, and telling them their lost history of the glory of Manetheren and its downfall(betrayed by a corrupted Amrilyn), the possibility of that ancient wrong been righted and the Red Eagle being raised again is something Ive been wanting for for a long time. IMHO its Perrin's role to be King, during and after TG, and to provide the new home for both the Aiel AND the Tuatha'an,(those that survive, anyway). As far as Andor and the Seanchan,there will no doubt be bickering between the nations after TG; hasnt it been prophesised that war and nation dissent would continue after the Last Battle? As many would have noticed over the years reading this saga, the more a character tries to resist what the Wheel weaves for their destiny, the more sure that fate will come to be. So, Perrin putting away the Red Eagle banner, attempting to assuage Elayne and the Seanchan that he has no intention of raising Manetheren, merely confirms that he WILL. Also, did not Min forsee Perrin wearing a lionshelm, as a king riding into battle? (Lion- as part of Andor?)Anyway, thats my first 2 cents worth in this forum,Ive been wanting to express my POV about this story for years, seems Ive come to the right place.

Cheers, Eamonn

[Mr Ares]

Greetings Mellojoe, and everyone, this is my first post, am glad so many are devoted to Mr. Robert Jordan's masterpiece (R.I.P.), the finest fantasy work since TLOTR.

Blasphemy! What about the Silmarillion?

 

IMHO its Perrin's role to be King, during and after TG, and to provide the new home for both the Aiel AND the Tuatha'an,(those that survive, anyway). As far as Andor and the Seanchan,there will no doubt be bickering between the nations after TG; hasnt it been prophesised that war and nation dissent would continue after the Last Battle? As many would have noticed over the years reading this saga, the more a character tries to resist what the Wheel weaves for their destiny, the more sure that fate will come to be. So, Perrin putting away the Red Eagle banner, attempting to assuage Elayne and the Seanchan that he has no intention of raising Manetheren, merely confirms that he WILL. Also, did not Min forsee Perrin wearing a lionshelm, as a king riding into battle? (Lion- as part of Andor?)Anyway, thats my first 2 cents worth in this forum,Ive been wanting to express my POV about this story for years, seems Ive come to the right place.

Well, it does seem that it's Perrin's role to be King...of Saldaea. I don't see Perrin as a likely ruler of either the Aiel or the Tinkers - indeed, the Tinkers were last seen heading south, to Seanchan held lands and the promise of safety there (KoD 12). It has indeed been prophesied that war will continue after the Last Battle - "The great battle done but the world not done with battle" - but that doesn't indicate a rebirth of Manetheren, against the wishes of just about everyone. The TR people might be quite happy with it, but the general population of Ghealdan saw an army marching past with the Red Eagle as cause to keep their heads down, not for celebration. The people of Ghealdan don't want it, Perrin doesn't want it, the Seanchan don't want it, the people of Andor don't want it, Elayne doesn't want it. Hell, Perrin doesn't even want to rule the TR. He'd probably be quite happy to hand it over to someone else if he though they could be trusted. Perrin's attempts to assuage the Seanchan that he doesn't want to raise Manetheren are not indications that he will. Destiny doesn't work by taking a stance directly opposite what people want, it operates regardless of what an individual wants. I don't recall any Viewing of Min's of Perrin with a lion helm. As it is, there's nothing to support that Manetheren will come back. The past is gone. That's quite clear. Malkier is dead as well, and finding the Song won't bring back the AoL. Everything has its time, and everything ends.

[WWWwombat]

I've tried to read the Silmarillion twice.  I'm gonna go for a third try soon I think.

[Muad Cheade]

I highly recommend the Silmarillion.

 

Perrin wasn't in a viewing by Min with a lion-head helmet. It was a dream he was pulled into by Lanfear (TDR Chapter 4) in her attempt to pull him to her side.

 

It is unlikely Manetheren will rise again.

[mb]

If Manetheren exists after Tarmon Gaidon, it would probably be under Elayne or under the ruler of Ghealdan (currently Alliandre); because the area covers their lands.

Unlikely under Perrin/Faile because both Perrin & Faile would likely feel each of the lands (in addition to Saldaea) being more than they could handle.

 

[Samuel Aybara]

I think Alliandre is sworn to Perrin so by proxy, Perrin would control Manetheren. I also think he could get Arad Domain, Ghealdan, Saldaea, Two Rivers area, and maybe even a controlling interest in Mayene. However, I doubt he will want to control that much land.

[ed2funy]

I agree that Manatheren will rise again....in it's original form.....

Now hear me out....

 

I believe Perrin will rise up to be a King, maybe of Saldaea through Faile, but of the Two Rivers as a nation! Perrin does not really like leading, but he has come to accept it....and he knows that he can be good at it...

 

Elayne doesn't want it, but Andor has not controlled the Two Rivers in like 7 generations...She might realize she can't control it, but instead help it and bring it as a strong ally. I mean...come on, her (maybe future husband???), and lover is from the Two Rivers.

 

Perrin agreed with the Seanchan that he would not raise Manatheren, he said nothing about raising a new country out of a back-water village that Andor controls only in name. He can still raise the Two Rivers and not break his promise!

 

I don't think he will want to take any of the surrounding countries like Arad Doman or Tarabaon....He will leave Ghealdean alone,, because he is Allrianne's liege-lord. He swore to protect her people....and her lands....

 

So, that is my idea....

[Majsju]

There is an old thread that covers this quite indepth.

 

A brief summary.

Perrin will have some role in Saldea, whether he is called king, prince or 1st jester is quite irrelevant.

He is in his own right the lord of the Two Rivers. Even if Elayne want to do something about it, there is not much she can do, since her focus must be on the Seanchan, and to a lesser extent Cairhien. And speaking of Seanchan, it is in Elaynes best inerest to have Faile and Perrin in as strong position as possible, so the Seanchan are forced to spread their forces. Divide and deconquer ;D

 

Saldea and the Two Rivers are separated by the western part of Caralain Grass, a mostly unpopulated area just waiting to be populated. Incidently, Perrin got the responsibility for 100000 refugees or so in KOD. Even if half of them decides to go their own way, he will still have 50000 people to handle. Best way to deal with them? Find a place for them to settle where they 1: will not upset the existing balance (ie not dumping them somewhere where a lot of people already lives), and 2: will be where he can offer them protection. Right in between Saldea and the Two Rivers seems like a most excellent place for them to settle, as that would meet both requirements. And such a move would bring Saldea and TR closer, open up for increased trade relations and all that jazz, fundamentally changing the reality on the ground.

 

Ghealdan is a bit different. Alliandre is still the legal ruler, and Perrin her liege lord. So Ghealdan might not become part of a new SaldeaTR nation, but it would be closely associated with such a nation. Assuming Alliandre survives TG, that is. If she dies, the situation obviously changes.

 

So, to summarize. Perrin will be ruler (together with Faile) of a new nation, that will have some territory in common with manetheren. it will however not be Manetheren 2. Digging up the rotten corpse of a dead nation would go very much against one of the core themes in WOT, that things change.

[Eamonn]

It has always struck me the similarities/links between Manetheren and Lews Therin Telamon, the nation and the man. Both were for their times the major adversary of the forces of the Shadow. Both represented the pinnacle of their respective civilisations/eras. Both suffered envy and betrayal.Both achieved victory, but at the cost of their own destruction. And the manner of their destruction is similar-both consumed by the grief stricken use of the OP.That LTT's soul has suffered 3000 years of grief and remorse, and finds itself co-habiting with Rand al'Thor, who though a born Aiel,is of the TR (Manetheren). That Rand's father's last name is so similar to the last King of Manetheren, Aemon al Caar al Thorin. If a major element of this story is the redemption of LTT's soul, and the desire to right the injustices of the past, surely the same can be said for Manetheren? It is not coincidence that the major characters (Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene and Nynaeve) all come from the TR? It could be argued that just as LTT's soul works through Rand to again stand against the DO for justice and revenge, so too the others for Manetheren. Consider:

Manetheren was betrayed by the machinations of the Amyrlin Tetsuan who was jealous of the prestige and power of Queen Eldrene, herself an Aes Sedai. Come full circle, now we have an Amyriln from the TR, Egwene al Vere.

Matrim Cauthon's army, The Band of the Red Hand (Shen an Calhar), named after the group of heroes who fell with their king Aemon at Emonds Fields.

Perrin Aybara, the Lord of the Two Rivers who, though is still trying to deny it, leads a force with the banner of the Red Eagle of Manetheren at its head.

All this leads me to think that even though fellow members believe Manetheren will not rise again, the spirit of Manetheren is intended to be represented at Tarmon Gai'don, for its own ration of revenge on the Shadow.

PS. In Ch 7 of TGH, Lan gives Rand a golden cord, like a lanyard, ties it in an intricate knot around Rand's left arm, and pins an enamel red eagle, symbol of Manetheren, on it, just before they're summoned to the Amyrlin. Since then, there has been no more reference to this piece of ornamentation. My question is: do you think any of the characters will wear such a device before the end? I know its a very small point, but it has bothered me for a while.

Cheers.

[mellojoe]

PS. In Ch 7 of TGH, Lan gives Rand a golden cord, like a lanyard, ties it in an intricate knot around Rand's left arm, and pins an enamel red eagle, symbol of Manetheren, on it, just before they're summoned to the Amyrlin. Since then, there has been no more reference to this piece of ornamentation. My question is: do you think any of the characters will wear such a device before the end? I know its a very small point, but it has bothered me for a while.

Cheers.

Its funny you mention that... I was thinking that once Rand and Perrin get a chance to talk (after Perrin starts to accept his "lordship" of the TR), Rand will recognize Perrin's leadership of Manetheren and give him that pin.  It was a stray thought, and probably not true in any sense.  But, I picture kind of a bachelor's night where Rand and Perrin and Mat can all get together, smoke some cigars, and talk for a bit before TG.  Or maybe after TG, in the smoking lounge...

[ed2funy]

But, I picture kind of a bachelor's night where Rand and Perrin and Mat can all get together, smoke some cigars, and talk for a bit before TG.  Or maybe after TG, in the smoking lounge...

 

Too bad Mat is not a bachelor...lol...

neither is Perrin...

ad come to think of it, Rand is only a half bachelor....

 

:D

[Eamonn]

 

Its funny you mention that... I was thinking that once Rand and Perrin get a chance to talk (after Perrin starts to accept his "lordship" of the TR), Rand will recognize Perrin's leadership of Manetheren and give him that pin.  It was a stray thought, and probably not true in any sense.  But, I picture kind of a bachelor's night where Rand and Perrin and Mat can all get together, smoke some cigars, and talk for a bit before TG.  Or maybe after TG, in the smoking lounge...

LOL, hysterical. Though I guess the only thing smoking will be the corpse of Moridin or Shadar Haran. Either that or the discussion about the prospect of some wife swapping! (Looks like Mat will come up short in that department, sorry Mat) On a serious note though, it would be good for the lads to be all wearing the Caldazar device for TG.

[ed2funy]

It would be cool....

 

like a good ol reunion of friends and representing their legendary ancestral home..

[lsm]

perrin should pick up the axe again after TG and cut through the forest of shadows and link up ghealdan with the two rivers!

[ed2funy]

lol..

 

all by himself!

 

that will be his legend...

:P :P