Questions/Theories Answered or New Tidbits Added (Full Book Spoilers)

[Dakota]

I remember reading somewhere that RJ was asked if Illyena might have been reborn as three seperate people, and he responded that no, a soul couldn't be split up like that.  So while the other two might have some aspects of her personality by chance, only one of the three could be Illyena reborn.

[Lilbaz]

Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this or if it has already been answered but I have a question.

 

Why didn't Moghedien use the true power to escape the adam as Rand did? Was it because the DO wouldn't let her? Which would mean that for some reason he wanted her to teach them or because he wanted her punished. Or she was faerful of using the TP.

 

Or have I just got everything arse about tit?

[Mr Ares]

The Chosen are, aside from Ishy, very reluctant to use the TP. Also, use was denied to any save Moridin, although we don't know when that started.

[Sentinel78]

The Chosen are, aside from Ishy, very reluctant to use the TP. Also, use was denied to any save Moridin, although we don't know when that started.

 

No reason was ever given for this either, aside from Moridin being made Naeblis.  If the DO has enough TP to go around, why wouldn't he let them use it?  I thought that was kind of weird.  The only real apparent reason for Moridin's exclusive use of the TP is the DO's trust in him, but he let the other Forsaken use it in the AoL so it's kind of odd.

[Anoxanmore]

One of the main reasons for Mordin's use of the TP is due to the fact he is insane, and doesn't care about the side affects (see flaming eyes of old Ishy), and the fact the DO trusts him far more than any other Choosen, even Lanfear was scared of the TP, and rightfully so, since there is no protection from the affects (unlike the connection to the DO used to slide the taint off to channel clean saidin).

[Mr Hindley]

Why didn't Moghedien use the true power to escape the adam as Rand did? Was it because the DO wouldn't let her? Which would mean that for some reason he wanted her to teach them or because he wanted her punished. Or she was faerful of using the TP.

 

This is a fair point, I think. Yes, the Chosen are reluctant to use the TP due to the long-term side effects. But surely one use of the TP is preferable to a lifetime of captivity and humiliation, and pissing off the DO in the process. From the DO's perspective, Moggy might have been low in his estimation as a result of being captured, but how can it be a good thing to leave her teaching his enemies? And if he wanted that, then how come Aran'gar got sent to release her?

 

Actually - had we even seen the TP yet at that point in the series..? I don't remember really being aware of it until Moridin showed up.

[Sentinel78]

The TP isn't referred to explicitly until Book 7, Moggy shows up in Book 4 and is captured in Book 5.  However, if you re-read the prologue to Book 1, it's pretty clear that Moridin is using the TP, altough I doubt RJ had worked out all the specifics yet.

[jemron]

Why didn't Moghedien use the true power to escape the adam as Rand did? Was it because the DO wouldn't let her? Which would mean that for some reason he wanted her to teach them or because he wanted her punished. Or she was faerful of using the TP.

 

This is a fair point, I think. Yes, the Chosen are reluctant to use the TP due to the long-term side effects. But surely one use of the TP is preferable to a lifetime of captivity and humiliation, and pissing off the DO in the process. From the DO's perspective, Moggy might have been low in his estimation as a result of being captured, but how can it be a good thing to leave her teaching his enemies? And if he wanted that, then how come Aran'gar got sent to release her?

 

Actually - had we even seen the TP yet at that point in the series..? I don't remember really being aware of it until Moridin showed up.

 

I think the fact that Moggy didn't use the TP to escape from the a'dam is true to her character.  She's a really big coward.  The TP would frighten her more than being captive to the Super Girls IMO.

[Sharaman]

Hmm what happens if RaT can somehow use TP to make new seals?

GLoD can apparently weaken normal cuendillar (made with OP) by the use of TP though c'lar just absorbs OP and gets stronger.

However, cuendillar made from TP may absorb TP and get stronger so may be invulnerable to GLoD's ministrations.

Of course, if Fel is right, it won't be a patch, it'll be a whole new bore.

Maybe TP and OP can be melded together like Saidin-Saidar to weave a c'lar bore that is invulnerable to anything?

Just a theory...

 

[Tigraine]

I've read it somewhere before so I'm not claiming this as mine but I seriously doubt the Dark One will let the TP be used to seal him up seeing as how the TP comes from him or through him.

[mossman87]

Hmm what happens if RaT can somehow use TP to make new seals?

GLoD can apparently weaken normal cuendillar (made with OP) by the use of TP though c'lar just absorbs OP and gets stronger.

However, cuendillar made from TP may absorb TP and get stronger so may be invulnerable to GLoD's ministrations.

Of course, if Fel is right, it won't be a patch, it'll be a whole new bore.

Maybe TP and OP can be melded together like Saidin-Saidar to weave a c'lar bore that is invulnerable to anything?

Just a theory...

 

 

That would just put another patch on the hole though.  They need to sew back up the hole in the Pattern.  So it'll involve the True Source somehow.

[Kalyahna]

This is going to be long, I think. Bear with me.

 

So, Shadar Haran didn't free Semi.  He just appeared to tell her that she was given a second chance.  Elza killed/stunned the Aes Sedai who were shielding Semi, and she probably received help from someone else (likely Graendal). It's likely that Graendal was somehow involved since Elza had "compulsion that needed to be removed" and Graendal was specifically asked at the beginning of the book to hit Rand where it really hurts the most (ie. his heart). 

 

[...] Now, did they know that Semi would be stupid and not immediately fulfill her assignment (ie. capture Rand and immediately take him to Shayol Ghul), but that she would stick around and have some "fun" first?  No, I don't think that they knew that...  But I think the desired outcome was the same (Rand took the TP out of desperation).

 

Finally, Verin does speculate that the Forsaken are so selfish in nature that they actually even seem too predictable... So maybe Moridin/Graendal/the DO/whoever did know that Semi would do something as foolish as she did in the end.

 

Less Graendel with the compulsion, more Verin. I would guess SH freed Elza, Elza killed the other AS, then freed Semi, and Semi got the Dominion Band and removed Elza's Verin-induced Compulsion. Being one of the Forsaken, and probably puffed up because she'd been freed, she would likely expect to be able to go back for anything else (like the Choedal Kal) once she had Rand good and locked down on the collar. And whimpering in a puddle of his own misery.

 

As for people expecting Semi to mess with Rand... Yeah. I'd guess the DO would expect more obedience, but it's been mentioned many times that he also likes his kids to make sure the strongest survive so the strongest serve him. If she was dumb enough to play around instead of following orders, I imagine it's more of a 'she did it to herself' moment.

 

There was also an argument that Verin thought her Compulsion was nigh-undetectable. Well... to Verin or other modern AS, probably, yes. It's convoluted enough of a weave to confuse nearly anyone who managed to glimpse it. Except that the Forsaken certainly all know it. And even Verin admitted the version she used was cobbled together. It's functional... but not necessarily pretty.

 

Question with a full circle of channelers what is the range that they can go with weaves?  Cause Rand alone had a decent range when using the telescope so what if you had the full circle.

 

Unless a channeler has a block, if they can see it, they can affect it. The block thing was mentioned early on with the Black Tower, one of the early men was explained to have one about distance. Circles only affect how much total power can be drawn and used.

 

Didn't RJ say that the DO doesn't like anybody channeling near the bore?  Because it's a case of who has the power.  The DO seems to have his own selfish personality.  He wants full control, and so he will burn anybody who channels near Shayol Ghul to a crisp.  Not because he has to, but because he doesn't like it when other people show any sort of ability or power around him.

 

here is a quote from RJ about it

Week 9 Question: We've read in the Forsaken's points of view that channeling in the Pit of Doom would have some...unpleasant...effects. Is this related to the nature of the opposition of the One Power to the True Power or is it the Dark One consciously acting against the channeler? If so, why should the Dark One care?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: It is a matter of the Dark One consciously acting, though interactions between the One Power and him, the source of the True Power, can be unpredictable. The Dark One is not pleasant. He is also highly distrustful. He…dislikes…things that happen outside his control or not at his order. Call him the ur-control freak. Combine these two facts, and anyone channeling in the Pit of Doom without permission can expect swift punishment on the assumption that failure to ask permission means you intend to do something he won't like. It isn't that he believes anyone can harm him, just that he is in charge, and your failure to ask permission, your presumed intention to do something he wouldn't like, means that your faithfulness quotient has just suffered a severe downturn. Myself, I'd sell you short in a skinny minute.

 

So it seems to me they can channel at the bore as long as they have permission to do so.

 

Much of this I think is in reference to the Forsaken themselves. They've already put themselves under his authority and his power. I'm not so sure that using saidar or saidin there would require permission from the DO for anyone else.

 

As it is... my loony theory is that Moridin will betray the Dark One in the final moments. Not that he'll go back to the Light or anything. I like the idea of the DO's own power being used against him, and we do have Verin getting around her BA oath in a sneaky way to set precedent. If the TP can be used as the buffer (trapping like with like), Moridin could pretty much be a well of it for Rand to use against the DO. Anyway, the point is I can see him backstabbing the DO. And maybe getting backstabbed by Fain in turn.

 

I do agree that the DO can't really be killed. Even Fel thought that was impossible - the best that can be done is resealing him. He demonstrated the circle in the air with his pipe. The 7 ages (iirc) and how when it circles back to what's called the 2nd age (the AoL) now, the prison would have to be so completely whole for so long that people of the age aren't even aware that it's there. He didn't think Rand would be able to do more than reseal it, retrap the DO. In Fel's line of thought, there are 5 (? - my math is bad, it's late, I'm tired) more Ages to go before it should be completely whole and unremembered again.

 

Another poster brought up balance, and it's an excellent point. It's been mentioned over and over and over by RJ - even the ta'veren chance, there's balance. Man trips over stone, breaks his neck on flat ground. Kid falls out of a 5 story window, not even a bruise. No good without evil, no light without darkness. Can't kill the DO anymore than the Creator can be killed.

[OptimusPrime]

Shaidar Haran can sense Warder bonds. This is hinted at because of the three Aes Sedai holding Semirhages shield, only one died, and that one had no Warder. I think Cadsuane made the notation about the two survivors having Warders.

 

 

[Sharaman]

Knowing who had a warder was more likely via intelligence provided by Elza (and other BA) in RaT's entourage. The AS were poisoned, not Saidared, or Saidined, or even Shaidared, to paraphrase Mat's description. It was a well-planned heist with as little use of OP as possible, presumably to avoid setting off alarms.

Superfade can however, ID compulsion, even of Verin's subtle kind, since he found EP's compulsion. I'm guessing he did it cause if a Saidar channeler (Graendal/ Messi/ Moggy/ Cyndane) was involved, she would have also been able to remove it. 

Thas ability is probably a side-effect of his being able to sniff Saidin-Saidar and he was delving into EP's head to teach her to bypass Cad's wards.

 

 

 

[Sentinel78]

Shaidar Haran can sense Warder bonds. This is hinted at because of the three Aes Sedai holding Semirhages shield, only one died, and that one had no Warder. I think Cadsuane made the notation about the two survivors having Warders.

 

I echo Sharaman.  BS indicated that SH is very limited in what he can do directly, and that Elze was essential to Semirhage's escape.  Elze knew who had Warders and who didn't have Warders, SH didn't need to sense anything.  The Aes Sedai were likely just poisoned or drugged, as Sharaman indicated.

[Sharaman]

I'm not really guessing - Brandon S's Q&A transcripts describes the SH-EP situation and the AS were placed in a trance/ unconscious. No sign was found of OP weaves. So either SH used TP to trance them, or more likely, they were rendered unconscious by smaller doses of the same poison that killed Daighan.

[Knobs Mahoney]

Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this or if it has already been answered but I have a question.

 

Why didn't Moghedien use the true power to escape the adam as Rand did? Was it because the DO wouldn't let her? Which would mean that for some reason he wanted her to teach them or because he wanted her punished. Or she was faerful of using the TP.

 

Or have I just got everything arse about tit?

 

It is pointed out very starkly in the conversation between Demandred and Shai'tan that Shai'tan is not omniscient. I don't think that he necessarily knew or would have known that Moghedien had been captured, imprisoned, and forced to teach Nynaeve and Elayne. I think that for the first bit of her imprisonment, Shai'tan probably didn't know until the DF Spy-Network caught up to what was happening.

 

As far as the True Power goes, I don't think that many of them knew much about how it could work or what it could do. Maybe Ishydin does, because it is practically all he uses, but the rest of the Forsaken probably used it reluctantly and therefore had scant knowledge of what it could do. Moghedien, half-crazed from her imprisonment, probably never had an inkling of the idea that the TP could set her free.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

Re post above, I was thinking about that myself. I had thought that Moggy must have been silly and not tried to use TP as she has human flaws too - such as under extreme pressure becomes a dumbass.

 

When "wearing" one of these collars you can sense the power and know it is there but can not touch it. Women don't seize the power but let it flow over them whilst men have to grasp it. Maybe upon attempting to allow the power to flow in she was convinced it wouldn't work and became instantly resigned to her situation - possibly as a means to becoming more proactive "how can i escape this situation within these parameters" not realising that the tp was there.

 

Whereas Rand suddenly sensed something new and grabbed it, grasping at straws. Essentially to take control of the female source you can not go "grasping at straws" and presumably the TP works in much the same way. In effect the escape is more naturally suited to the man's style of taking the power. Much as a woman who is really tired would be able to take control of the power easier than a man who is physically tired.

[SheaththeSword]

I thought I remembered hearing that  the Lord of Chaos was another name for the DO?

 

Also, I ran across something today- a celtic reference- that called the Fair Folk of their mythology the Tuatha An Dennan, or something very similar.

 

I know the Tuatha'an are descended from the Aiel, but could there be anything to that reference? 

I assume you mean fairy folk? Yes, the Tuatha De Danann (Too-ah Day Dan-en, slight lisp-ish sound on the 'T', not sure how to describe the proper sound it is not in English as far as i know) refers to an ancient Celtic legend of the 'people of Danu', said to have had god-like powers, used powerful maigic and were great warriors. Arrived on Ireland, either from stars (as descendants from the gods) or a land far to the north. Different versions get around.

There was a theory about this back on WoTmania, of how RJ used a similar name for the people of the Leaf, and then gave the whole "red hair and warrior-tribal system" of the Gaels to the breakaways from this ppl, i.e. the Aiel. Took alot from ancient Celtic culture and lifestyle for the Aiel, and then threw them into a hot dessert, made them black instead of the wraith-like skin you'd normally associate with Irish ppl.

[charis sedai]

Oh, you know what? I remember that theory now lol. Ah, Wotmania, how I miss thee.

 

So he definetly refrenced them, but we don't seem to think that really means much in terms of resolving them in the end of the series?

[wingedearth]

So there are bubbles of evil because of the Shadow being almost free of the ancient Aes Sedai seals. I suppose we can assume that these bubbles of evil will continue or increase after the Shadow breaks free.  But to what extent? We have not heard anything about bubbles of evil occurring during the War of the Shadow, when the Dark One's prison was wide open.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

I thought I remembered hearing that  the Lord of Chaos was another name for the DO?

 

Also, I ran across something today- a celtic reference- that called the Fair Folk of their mythology the Tuatha An Dennan, or something very similar.

 

I know the Tuatha'an are descended from the Aiel, but could there be anything to that reference? 

I assume you mean fairy folk? Yes, the Tuatha De Danann (Too-ah Day Dan-en, slight lisp-ish sound on the 'T', not sure how to describe the proper sound it is not in English as far as i know) refers to an ancient Celtic legend of the 'people of Danu', said to have had god-like powers, used powerful maigic and were great warriors. Arrived on Ireland, either from stars (as descendants from the gods) or a land far to the north. Different versions get around.

There was a theory about this back on WoTmania, of how RJ used a similar name for the people of the Leaf, and then gave the whole "red hair and warrior-tribal system" of the Gaels to the breakaways from this ppl, i.e. the Aiel. Took alot from ancient Celtic culture and lifestyle for the Aiel, and then threw them into a hot dessert, made them black instead of the wraith-like skin you'd normally associate with Irish ppl.

 

 

Good knowledge, I'm half Scottish and half Irish in birth and breeding, so its nice to see someone else take on the task of passing on this info!

 

For people wondering just forget about the lispy part so you don't sound like an eejit, the h signifies that the t is silent not a th as in thorn sound.

 

Also, Wraith means spirit or ghost and not a big guy on a dragon's back.

[SheaththeSword]

Good knowledge, I'm half Scottish and half Irish in birth and breeding, so its nice to see someone else take on the task of passing on this info!

 

For people wondering just forget about the lispy part so you don't sound like an eejit, the h signifies that the t is silent not a th as in thorn sound.

 

Also, Wraith means spirit or ghost and not a big guy on a dragon's back.

 

Lol thanks Rocky, though i'll admit i did a bit of research to compliment my sparse knowledge of this fascinating area.

 

Actually i meant the first T, Tuatha, very hard to describe. Kinda like the proper pronunciation of 'tsunami' is hard to pin down for someone who's never heard it in it's native language, though obv v diff. sound.

 

Yes wraith the old English, equivalant to ghost, spook, spirit, from which Tolkien actually took it. Though a Fade would probably fit the bill too ;)

[saidarisnowtainted]

i originally thought this idea pertained to the unnoticed thing in 4-6 but it appears to be striken as a candidate do to it being on the list of things peter excluded.

 

Quoting from the Q&A compilation regarding the unnotice thing striken list:

 

"**A.R. to Rand being one with the land, or the changing influence of his ta’verenism, or the effects his corrupted wounds might have through his ta’verenism."

 

However, notwithstanding that it's not THE unnoticed thing, i still have an idea i'd like to throw out--

 

Perhaps Rand can directly and consciously flex his Taveren muscles to influence the Pattern at will?  This doesnt involve channeling. 

 

We see a hint of this when, in the scene where he banishes Cadsuane, he threatens her and intimates that he can do such a thing.

 

Thoughts?  Ramifications?  What are the possibilities?  I think this can affect many things in thefuture books.

 

[DarkLite]

Has the method by which Rand accessed the TP been debated? I know some people think the DO let him touch it, secret plot, master plan etc. etc. etc., but what is your opinion on the following theory?

 

-Rand accessed the TP via Moridin, via their link.