Perrin and Faile's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[Impressive Bosom]

*shakes head*

Of course, everyone is completely entitled to his or her own opinion. However, I truly doubt that Robert Jordan would have said or agreed with the opinion that Perrin had become a "whiny individual."

 

Perhaps not... but Perrin might have.

 

He even comes to some similar conclusions himself when he reflects on his single-minded and somewhat selfish behaviour.

[WolfDragonFox]

I don't think he was whiny at all and he is my favorite character too. I rather think it was a process of getting to the mindset that he must accept he is the most trusted man in WoT universe and he has to be a leader of men instead of shirking at his responsibilities...now he will accept both of his worlds, and his roles as a leader in them, both man and wolf.  It isn't really whiny to agonize over a hard acceptance.

[Sharaman]

Going forward, how does the Broken Crown come to Perrin?

I guess Tenobia and Bashere must die, then maybe Faile, if Perrin is to become King (not consort) of Saldaea. 

Perrin still have one massive unknown role to play - rescuing Rand for the second time.

So you'll have to reconcile to seeing lots more of Perrin, whether you think he's whiny or not.

 

[jemron]

I agree that Perrin isn't whinny.  He is just insecure about some things, and he is finally accepting his role in the WoTverse and manning up to it.  Some people claim that Perrin is the most "emo" character filled with "angst" and overly sad and whatnot, but I also hear many many people say he is their favorite character.  I think, while many people don't like to admit it, many of us relate best to Perrin because we too have angst and many insecurities.

 

Anyway, the other day I met a woman who told me her son's name was Perrin.  Not wanting to immediately reveal my geekiness I asked, "Where did that come from?"  She said, "Oh, my husband is a fan of..."  I interrupted, "The Wheel of Time!?"  I then did reveal my inner nerd and it was a lovely conversation. She said "Perrin" is actually an older version of Peter with English roots or something.  She was just excited to tell her husband that finally somebody knew where the name came from.  Kinda cool.

[WolfDragonFox]

Going forward, how does the Broken Crown come to Perrin?

I guess Tenobia and Bashere must die, then maybe Faile, if Perrin is to become King (not consort) of Saldaea.  

Perrin still have one massive unknown role to play - rescuing Rand for the second time.

So you'll have to reconcile to seeing lots more of Perrin, whether you think he's whiny or not.

 

Sharaman that is a great point about the broken crown...actually my thought about this ties into my thoughts on Demandred.  As you know I am on the side of him being with the Borderlanders, and using Tenobia as one of his proxies.  So if I am wrong about the entire Bashere family being DF's, then I at least think that Tenobia is one or was Compulsed into her leading the march of the Borderlanders.  She is the only one that needs to die for Perrin to reach the crown since it is pointed out 2 or 3 times by Davrem Bashere and Faile as well as one other if i'm not mistaken.  Faile is the next in line, not Davrem, (how that is I don't know but thats how it is)

 

I agree that Perrin isn't whinny.  He is just insecure about some things, and he is finally accepting his role in the WoTverse and manning up to it.  Some people claim that Perrin is the most "emo" character filled with "angst" and overly sad and whatnot, but I also hear many many people say he is their favorite character.  I think, while many people don't like to admit it, many of us relate best to Perrin because we too have angst and many insecurities.

 

Anyway, the other day I met a woman who told me her son's name was Perrin.  Not wanting to immediately reveal my geekiness I asked, "Where did that come from?"  She said, "Oh, my husband is a fan of..."  I interrupted, "The Wheel of Time!?"  I then did reveal my inner nerd and it was a lovely conversation. She said "Perrin" is actually an older version of Peter with English roots or something.  She was just excited to tell her husband that finally somebody knew where the name came from.  Kinda cool.

 

I too hope to name my children after WoT characters, since this book helped me with one some actual problems I was having when I was younger.  Kind of got me through via an escape route and relating to the characters like many WoT fans I suspect.  Especially Perrin which is the name I hope to give my son should I have one.

[Crael123]

Just to put into perspective..... say you had a wife that you loved very very much and then she got abducted by the like... sex slaves or something. wouldnt you be a little upset and angry about the fact you may never see her again and she was getting abused? that is basicly what Perrin was experiencing those 2 months. I think that we should cut him a break and just thank Jesus the Shaido plotline is OVER!! and now Perrin is all better and he is going back to Rand to prepare for the Last Battle.  

 

 

yes this is a very extreme example.

[Crael123]

oh, and adding to my post above, there is a nasty rumor that just wont die that u were with a hooker the night your wife got kidnapped. yes, i am comparing berelain to a hooker.  :o all of these,extreme examples

[jadelollipop]

Personally I get a kick out of imagining the "family reunion" after the LB when everyone is settled with their partners. Being in the same room with Faile,Berelain,Fortuona,Egwene,Nynaeve,Elayne,Min,Avienda and Moraine would make the guys pull a "Huck Finn" and head west....did I leave anyone out...(Amathera and Bayle's wife)

 

Suian and Leanne

[thewalrus777]

I agree that Perrin isn't whinny.  He is just insecure about some things, and he is finally accepting his role in the WoTverse and manning up to it.  Some people claim that Perrin is the most "emo" character filled with "angst" and overly sad and whatnot, but I also hear many many people say he is their favorite character.  I think, while many people don't like to admit it, many of us relate best to Perrin because we too have angst and many insecurities.

 

Anyway, the other day I met a woman who told me her son's name was Perrin.  Not wanting to immediately reveal my geekiness I asked, "Where did that come from?"  She said, "Oh, my husband is a fan of..."  I interrupted, "The Wheel of Time!?"  I then did reveal my inner nerd and it was a lovely conversation. She said "Perrin" is actually an older version of Peter with English roots or something.  She was just excited to tell her husband that finally somebody knew where the name came from.  Kinda cool.

 

He wasn't just insecure about somethings, he was insecure about everything. Insecurity and selfishness(in regards to faile, and not caring for anything else) tends to make someone seem and sound whiny. However, I'm most certainly glad that he's officially pulled his head outta his ass, and is now realizing his place in the pattern. He can no longer run from his destiny, which is to lead armies to TG, and possibly to lead a nation(Saladea, or maybe Manetheren reborn). He knows he has to be there for Rand, and that his role is extremely pivotal to his success.

[rubbernilly]

None of it works if you assume a series of gates can be opened and knotted by the same few channelers.

It all gets much faster and easier.

 

The thing is, Rand comments (at some point) that he can't leave a gate open in case someone happens upon it while he is gone (I think he is hunting a Forsaken at the time).

 

If I'm remembering correctly, then a gate can be tied off, and you still have the original problem I noted: Grady and Neald could have tied off a gate for getting the refugees away; once they had tied off the gate, they'd have stopped expending their endurance.

[Durinax]

None of it works if you assume a series of gates can be opened and knotted by the same few channelers.

It all gets much faster and easier.

 

The thing is, Rand comments (at some point) that he can't leave a gate open in case someone happens upon it while he is gone (I think he is hunting a Forsaken at the time).

 

If I'm remembering correctly, then a gate can be tied off, and you still have the original problem I noted: Grady and Neald could have tied off a gate for getting the refugees away; once they had tied off the gate, they'd have stopped expending their endurance.

What I understand is a gateway cannot be tied off, but it can be blocked open, (I think that is what happened for the brief scene in seanchan the only time we see a gateway kept open with no more expenditure of energy by the chaneller)

[Sharaman]

Gates can definitely be loosely knotted and tied off - Sammael did so with the Shaido and Rand with his deathgates.

It's a mystery why channelers can't permanently/ tightly tie off gates, which would make moving armies around much easier.

But we've never seen them do it. So, there must be a reason - maybe the knots loosen unpredictably or something else.

 

[Tensai0211]

I believe the reason they don't tie gateways off is that they can't tell when it'll close - like Sammael's fools Boxes and the Shaido, there was a number of people killed by closing gateways - i would guess that passive weaves such as shields can be tied off indefinitely but active weaves such as gateways require maintaining or they unravel over time.

 

Perrin has a very strong force of personality so i believe perhaps Tenobia and Bashere die, then Faile swears like Alliandre did, she doesn't necessarily have to die, perhaps the Saldaens won't be too disappointed to be part of the new Manetheron

[garion]

Yeah Saldaea is close to the Two Rivers but some of Arad Doman land is in the way so I guess some conquest is needed plus not having Andor coming to suppress a rebellion.

[ranjitb]

Assuming that her high imperialness ForTUONa doesn't go around subjugating it, Arad Doman is done for, and will probably be swallowed up in parts by its various neighbors - indeed this is realistic, if each and every Randland nation survived an event as cataclysmic as the end of days, I would find it very unbelievable.

 

Once Elayne gets over her initial hissy fit, she would hopefully realize that losing a remote, virtually autonomous part of her kingdom (that she and Gawyn hadn't even HEARD OF, back in TEotW) is more than compensated for by her husband handing her the crowns of Cairheinien and Illian (HOW DARE HE), and there will not be and rebellion crushing.

 

 

[Sharaman]

If Rodel accepts the throne of Amadicia, and assuming they all survive, he's probably end up ruling Arad Doman as well.

Wonder what role the King of Ilian will have to play now that Egwene's in charge.

Does she just send him back?

 

[metaphor]

After the 12th book I'm left wondering: Is Arad Doman part of the North that Rand will tie to the East or part of the West that the Seanchan will tie to the South? The latest occurrences seem to suggest the latter.

 

And I literally have no idea as to what Perrin will do. It may seem logical for him to take control of the area that includes the 2 rivers and part of gheadan, but if I remember correctly there are various natural barriers to the south of the Two rivers that make it impossible to go into Ghealdan. He may take possession of some of the lands without a ruler below Saledea and above Andor but I don't see him abandoning the two rivers.

It's possible Elayne will claim the Crown of Cahirien ad focus her attentions on the East of her reign, leaving Perrin to build his kingdoms in the Two Rivers.

Things certainly do seem to be headed that way, with the refugees fropm Arad Doman and Tarabon, and the 100.00 ex gaishain who are following Perrin, most of which I'm sure will stay with him, and some may accept to become part of his army. It sees evident that there's going to be a great City in the Two Rivers.

And there is the matter of the gai shain sworn to Faile. Some are probably noble, which will increase her and Perrin's authority and prestige.

[ranjitb]

In Illian - Mattin Stepaneos was deposed by Sammael, and there was a subsequently a completely legal transfer of power to Rand. HE is the King of Illian.

Maybe this is why the Amrylin shows him her displeasure - how dare a shepherd go about playing at being a King.

 

In AD/Saldaea/Two Rivers/Ghealdan (supposedly the new Manatheren) - even if Itulrade survives, TGS pretty much established that AD is beyond saving in its current incarnation. With traveling rediscovered and readily at hand, natural barriers are no longer and issue at tying together a Kingdom, so its completely plausible for Manatheren to be resurrected with the Two Rivers at it's heart, and its current neighbours as its vassal states.

[metaphor]

Traveling is only available to like 1% of the population, and I don't see Asha'man or Aes Sedai use it for the sake of merchants.

I mean, there'd be no connection between the 2 parts of the reign except for those that channelers could provide. It's too frail a connecton for it to work properly.

[ranjitb]

Traveling is only available to like 1% of the population, and I don't see Asha'man or Aes Sedai use it for the sake of merchants.

 

That's all it takes.

Given that we have already seen large groups of channelers - Windfinders and WiseOnes - serve their nation rather than Tar Valon, and given that the potential number of channelers more than doubled (all men + women who were previously considered too weak to Wear The Shawl) there's no reason why Traveling (with a capital T) cannot become a viable and common source of transport. I assume it already was, back in the age of legends.

 

Even if that doesn't work out, with a de-tainted Saidin, the construction of permanent waygates can begin again, making extra dimensional travel available to all and sundry.

[Sharaman]

In Illian - Mattin Stepaneos was deposed by Sammael, and there was a subsequently a completely legal transfer of power to Rand. HE is the King of Illian.

Maybe this is why the Amrylin shows him her displeasure - how dare a shepherd go about playing at being a King.

 

In AD/Saldaea/Two Rivers/Ghealdan (supposedly the new Manatheren) - even if Itulrade survives, TGS pretty much established that AD is beyond saving in its current incarnation. With traveling rediscovered and readily at hand, natural barriers are no longer and issue at tying together a Kingdom, so its completely plausible for Manatheren to be resurrected with the Two Rivers at it's heart, and its current neighbours as its vassal states.

 

Sammael was not the King - as Lord Brend, he was leading the Council of Nine. The Council hadn't deposed Steppaneos, Elaida kidnapped him. The Ilian system is similar to Arad Doman, the Council and the King are separate power centres and the Council doesn't necessarily have the power to depose a monarch.

 

The Council offered Rand the CoS in the absence of Stepp but if the King is discovered and returns from Tar Valon, and it's established that he wasn't responsible for his disappearance, I don't know how legitimate the offering of the Laurel Crown to Rand would be. Rand has never offered Elayne the throne of Ilian that I can remember, only Carhein and Andor, of course.

 

Rand did offer Ituralde the throne of Amadicia - which Rodel accepted conditionally. Hence, given Ituralde's interest in AD, he may look to unite the two neighbouring lands.

 

 

 

 

[Crael123]

why did rand offer Iturlade the throne of amadeicia? he doesnt have the authority

[Sharaman]

why did rand offer Iturlade the throne of amadeicia? he doesnt have the authority

 

IIRC it went like this. This is a paraphrase, I don't have the book.

First Rand offered RI something like "Come with me and you can be king of Arad Doman."

Rodel refused Arad Doman.

Then he said, "Would you like to be king of Amadicia? The place is a shambles (Ailron is actually dead but I don't think he knows that for sure) and the Whitecloaks are scrapping with Seanchan. I can give you the throne if we can sort out the mess before the Last Battle"

Rodel said" I'll consider it but not if you're going to kill Ailron"

 

Rand's authority to offer Amadicia is therefore, force majeure (if my memory is not playing tricks).

There's a power vacuum and he can fill it with his proxy (another similarity between him and Demandred! They both like using proxies)

[Dead Guy]

So, Perrin has started (or continued?) to realize that he has to control the wolf somehow. Often when he goes to the wolf dream, Hopper tells him he's there too strong and has to go back or die, I guess the same as the Wise Ones term in the flesh. In The Gathering Storm Hopper even throws Perrin out I think. The Wise Ones say that everytime you go to Tel'Aran'Rhiod in the flesh, you lose some of your humanity. So does Perrin need to learn how to come to the wolf dream "not in the flesh"? Or will that start happening when he learns to control the wolf? Does he become more of a wolf/less human everytime he enters in the flesh?

[nophone]

So, Perrin has started (or continued?) to realize that he has to control the wolf somehow. Often when he goes to the wolf dream, Hopper tells him he's there too strong and has to go back or die, I guess the same as the Wise Ones term in the flesh. In The Gathering Storm Hopper even throws Perrin out I think. The Wise Ones say that everytime you go to Tel'Aran'Rhiod in the flesh, you lose some of your humanity. So does Perrin need to learn how to come to the wolf dream "not in the flesh"? Or will that start happening when he learns to control the wolf? Does he become more of a wolf/less human everytime he enters in the flesh?

 

I dunno, I think its a good point though. Surely Perrin can become more interesting again.