Perrin and Faile's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[Dakota]

Here is a question...

 

Grady and Neald claim that they are too tired to open a gateway, or to hold open a gateway for very long.

 

Why don't they tie off the weaves and leave the gateway stand for a day while people file through?

 

People tie off weaves all the time and then go to sleep. And since you can only work Spirit while you are sleeping, it cannot be that a tied-off weave continues to drain the channeler even though they have released the source. G & N could theoretically rest while they let people file through.

Perhaps weaves of a certain size, or of a certain complexity or power-requirement can't be tied off, not without risking collapsing or something equally as bad.  Cleansing the source might have gone easier if Rand had just tied off the weaves once they were doing their thing and started turning the CK on the attacking Forsaken, but he didn't.  Even the shield that Cadsuane was holding to protect them she didn't tie it off, she was actively holding it, and at some point she lessened it slightly so that she could help refresh Nynaeve.  Why wouldn't she have just tied it off at full strength and then healed Nyn?

[rubbernilly]

The whole "tie-it-off" mechanic is a bit problematic...

 

Either tied off weaves should end when the person stops channeling...

 

...or people should be able to, as you say: construct a shield at full strength, tie it off; conjure up a full power lightning storm, tie it off; channel a full power balefire stream constantly shooting from your palm, tie it off... and then walk into battle. Sure you'd be tearing the pattern to shreds, but who would be able to touch you? And since everything is tied off, you still have your full channeling strength available to shield the poor slob too dumb to retreat from the field.

 

The more I think about it, tying off weaves cannot take endurance from the channeler... People like Rand and the Forsaken probably have (or have had) hundreds (if not thousands) of weaves around protecting various things, or set as warnings.

 

So, there seems to be a hole there... a way to channel more than you normally can. It would be interesting to know what Brandon has to say on the matter.

[AvroChris]

Tied off weaves dissapate over time, so if the gateway unravelled itself while people were still going through...

(see Sammael and the dispersal of the Shaido, and Elyane, Nynaeve and Aviendha leaving Ebou Dar - they didn't have the time to let the gateway dissapate, so they tried to unravel it, it went a bit wrong, and boom...)

[rubbernilly]

Actually, they unraveled the gateway because they didn't want to take the chance that the Seanchan would have a damane capable of reading residues to construct the Traveling weave. They didn't want to give that weapon to the Seanchan. If they had simply closed the gateway (released the weave), they would have left a residue.

 

And though some weaves dissipate over time, they are commented on that way at the time that they are woven (ie, Lanfear says that she wove her shield of Asmodean in such a way that it would dissipate over time, but Asmodean doesn't know whether he can believe her... in other words, there is a possibility that her shield would *not* dissipate).

 

Other examples of weaves that did not dissipate:

 

The protection around Callandor.

The protection around Rhuidean.

 

There are no standing flows anymore, so even if these were constructed using those (doubtful, given the timeline), they cannot still be drawing upon them.

[Worm]

I believe that if you try and tie of a weave that is continually doing something (like a blast of balefire or a gateway) you will be releasing a burst of saidin/saidar energy and when it runs out the weave will fall to pieces.

 

Weaves that are not permantely active (wards, shields around Callandor etc...)only activate when someone does something to set them off and then go back into hibernation, this means that if enough people set the protection off it will eventually fail but considering the power of some channelers that could potentially take a long time. (you can't really use Lanfears shield as an example because it seems to defy everythjing we've heard so far, it was clearlly not a shield because Asmo would have been easily able to break the "knots")

 

So what I'm trying to say is some weaves can be tied off and still be effective but the weaves that are permantely doing something like creating a gateway will dissipate over time (as we saw with Rand's DeathGates)

[rubbernilly]

I'd like to get Sanderson's take on the question... see what he has to say... because, honestly, *all* weaves do something.

 

A ward is warding something. A shield is shielding someone.

 

Take a shield, as an example. Lanfear's shield on Asmodean is tied off, and she says it will dissipate, but Asmodean doesn't know whether to believe her. By all accounts, there is nothing going on, no "something" that the shield is doing except for the shielding. There is no way Asmodean would "drain" it by attempting to reach saidin through it... the shield was (or, "could have been," as we saw this from Asmo's POV) there forever.

 

Rand's Death Gates aren't a good example, since he isn't exactly sure what he was doing. LTT was running the show at that point. There's just as much reason to believe that Rand released the gateways when they passed through the Trolloc ranks and became useless as weapons to him.

 

I see your point, but I just disagree... and, like I said, I'd like to get Sanderson's POV on the whole question.

[yoniy0]

I don't think there's a problem here. Rand tied his Deathgates loosely, so they'll unravel over time. Sammael actually held the Gateways I think. The thing is, you can't tie a lightning, because you need a new weave for every lightning you wish to draw. The same with fire bolts. You can tie a shield (of any kind), but you run the risk of someone interfering with it before you'll have time to notice something is wrong (like Rand did with the shields blocking him at DW, or like he did with Sammael's defenses in Illian). Hence, I just have to assume that Grady and Neald didn't think of that (which is possible, I think) or they didn't want to leave the Gateways open in case someone else come by and use them. Maybe they were so exhausted they couldn't summon the strength to construct a Gateway in the first place.

[rubbernilly]

I guess I was thinking of a "storm" like what Rand did in the Stone, where the thing went off hunting through the halls and killing shadow spawn where it found them. Something like that could be tied off.

 

Grady and Neald not thinking of the possibility does seem to be the best explanation of what happened... but beyond that, is there a problem with the mechanic itself? Can channelers do more than they think that they can?

 

For instance, in boarding the Sea Folk vessel to bargain with them, Rand constructs a staircase out of air. He's glad the ship isn't any further away, because he was at the limit of his abilities. No problem. Tie that staircase off, get near the top, and start another from the last step. You could go on infinitely this way.

[yoniy0]

I guess I was thinking of a "storm" like what Rand did in the Stone, where the thing went off hunting through the halls and killing shadow spawn where it found them. Something like that could be tied off.

 

Grady and Neald not thinking of the possibility does seem to be the best explanation of what happened... but beyond that, is there a problem with the mechanic itself? Can channelers do more than they think that they can?

 

For instance, in boarding the Sea Folk vessel to bargain with them, Rand constructs a staircase out of air. He's glad the ship isn't any further away, because he was at the limit of his abilities. No problem. Tie that staircase off, get near the top, and start another from the last step. You could go on infinitely this way.

 

Actually, I don't think you could tie off the storm he made in the Stone. He had to build it up to a certain point, and only then release it. Up until then, he was still weaving it, and afterwards it was unraveling until it was done.

With the staircase/bridge, I think it has to be placed upon something at both ends. Since he simply couldn't weave one longer than the one he used, tying it won't help him if he can't construct one in the first place.

I think similar arguments would work for most things. The one place where I don't see a way to get around the inherit problems is with shielding. Suppose someone was to shield you, then tie the shield, weave another one, then tie that one as well, and go on. Pretty soon you wouldn't be able to channel no matter your respective strengths in the OP, and he could probably keep this up faster than you could disassemble the shields. Same goes with defenses. Maybe there's just a limit to the number of such weaves that can be placed at the same place by the same person simultaneously (didn't RJ once said his 'magic' system reminded him of quantum mechanics?)

[AvroChris]

Actually, they unraveled the gateway because they didn't want to take the chance that the Seanchan would have a damane capable of reading residues to construct the Traveling weave. They didn't want to give that weapon to the Seanchan. If they had simply closed the gateway (released the weave), they would have left a residue.

 

And though some weaves dissipate over time, they are commented on that way at the time that they are woven (ie, Lanfear says that she wove her shield of Asmodean in such a way that it would dissipate over time, but Asmodean doesn't know whether he can believe her... in other words, there is a possibility that her shield would *not* dissipate).

 

Other examples of weaves that did not dissipate:

 

The protection around Callandor.

The protection around Rhuidean.

 

There are no standing flows anymore, so even if these were constructed using those (doubtful, given the timeline), they cannot still be drawing upon them.

 

Good point. It's been a while since I read that book.

[Sharaman]

One way or another, a Gate seems like an "active" weave. Women connect two places by "making them the same" and men "bore a hole in-between".  Ether way if there isn't active channeling, the Gate probably dissipates over time. Rand "loosely" knotted the Deathgates deliberately and Sammael may have done the same with the Shaido.

But even with a "tight" knot, it does probably dissipate. Avi for instance, must have knotted her very first gate instinctively because it stayed open after she fled into Seanchan, it kept getting smaller though Rand blocked it closing totally.

Notice that Rand doesn't use this knotted gate technique in the TPoD scraps against the Seanchan and nobody seems to use knotted Gates anywhere. There must be a reason.

We (meaning DM) had an argument about this, in the context of the logistics of how long, how many channelers, would be required to move an army.

Rand offers Ituralde 100 channelers for a 50K force.

Verin takes a "matter of hours" to move Mat's 8000. Balwere does a calculation for Neald-Grady and Perrin.

None of it works if you assume a series of gates can be opened and knotted by the same few channelers.

It all gets much faster and easier.

 

[thewalrus777]

When did this thread turn to gateway talk? I hope we can get back to talking about Perrin, no matter how lame he may have gotten as the books have gone on.

[lordofsoup]

someone should end faile.  she is a cold hearted killer.  what she did to maesama, even though he is not a great persons, was nothing but murder. 

[Vambram]

What Faile and those whom are loyal to her and Perrin did to the prophet was completely and 100% justifiable. In fact, Perrin wanted and was hoping that the prophet would have been killed in the battle against the Shaido to free Faile and the rest of the prisoners. But, since that did not happen, and since Rand al`Thor has much more important things to do, and since killing the prophet and his followers in TGS is totally justifiable, then Faile did what was right. I am glad she did it.

[thewalrus777]

It's true that Faile killing Masema was the correct course of action. Why? Just because Masema didn't get to kill Perrin this time doesn't mean he wouldn't just keep trying over and over again. Perrin was just hoping that he wouldn't have to do it himself and that the battle would do him in instead. I would imagine that if Masema did try and confront our beloved Wolfbrother, Perrin would've in fact killed him himself. The only reason he didn't want to do anything about Masema is that it would then have been seen as an execution in his eyes, and that is not how Perrin rolls. Faile on the other hand, is the oldest child of the Marshal-Genaral of Saldea, and has seen how justice is to be handed out. By a Queen who is her cousin no less. Not to mention she was not about to let someone as dangerous and psychotic as Masema walk free to try and kill her husband. Not to mention her killing Masema wasn't in cold blood, he was trying to kidnap her. Self defense.

[yoniy0]

Agreed. While no one can know that Masema was being manipulated by one of the Forsaken, it was clear that he was (perhaps unwittingly) doing the Shadow's work. Hence, he had to go. It isn't murder to kill your enemies.

That being said, I don't care much for Faile, and I won't be heartbroken if something bad were to befall her.

[thewalrus777]

Faile isn't bad persay, just flawed. But all characters are flawed in their own ways. She was just the focal point of a very exhausted storyline, that by the time it was finished, you were just tired of hearing about Faile. She's not a bad character at all. She compliments Perrin very well. She is everything, he is not. A counter balance.

[yoniy0]

Oh, no, my dislike of Faile actually precedes pretty much every plotline she was a part of. I do like what she made Perrin into and how everybody reacts to her. I just can't stand HER. Just one of those things, I guess. Notice, however, that that doesn't keep me from acknowledging her morality.

[Agitel]

someone should end faile.  she is a cold hearted killer.  what she did to maesama, even though he is not a great persons, was nothing but murder. 

 

Masema tried to kill her husband. Masema was responsible for an ongoing genocide in Ghealdan and beyond. Masema was a delusioned, power-hungry, murderous fanatic. Masema did not want to go to Rand, he likely would have found some reason to kill Rand and justify that Rand was a darkfriend in some way, given his nature. The guy was a lunatic.

 

Masema may not have gotten a fair trial, but as the wife of Perrin, who was liege-lord of Ghealdan, the land he was in, she is somewhat responsible for dispensing justice AND PROTECTING HER PEOPLE.

[Impressive Bosom]

I also thank god we don't have to sit through a whole book of Faile thinking he slept with Berelain.

Likewise. I was just waiting for a line to pop up or that stupid "hurt" smell. It seems that Faile has grown up due to her captivity and for that, I'm grateful.

 

I might be in the minority, but I have always liked Berelain a lot more than Faile. Berelain always struck me as the kind of woman Faile hoped to be when she 'grew up', as she was more educated, more rational, more worldly, more devoted to her people and more willing to do whatever it took. She might not have been particularly courageous (at least initially) in the traditional sense, but who faced with the fury of the Dragon Reborn would be?

 

Part of me hoped that Chiad and Bain might have talked Faile into the possibility of 'sharing' Perrin, but now I'm glad they didn't. Faile would always have been the less pretty, less smart, less rational little sister. I'm just trying to figure out exactly why Berelain has remained so devoted to Perrin since he made things quite clear, and why she remains at his side every waking moment if not on the prowl.

 

Hell, I think Berelain is even too good for Perrin... or perhaps better expressed, 'too much' for Perrin. A great deal of what she brings to the table would be wasted on a blacksmith, wolf-brother or no.

[jadelollipop]

I am probably repeating myself but I hate the Berelain,Faile,Perrin "triangle". I am looking forward to Berelain and Galad finally meeting. I don't hate Berelain just her interference with Perrin and Faile. I like that she ran away from Rand and I love that she looked at Mat and declared him "too much like me"

lol

[Impressive Bosom]

I like that she ran away from Rand and I love that she looked at Mat and declared him "too much like me"

lol

 

That WAS a great line.

 

As for Berelain - my heart belongs to Moraine and always will, but my body... well, let's just say that what Moraine doesn't know about while she's all locked up in the Ghenji Tower won't kill her.  ;)

[Crael123]

I like that she ran away from Rand and I love that she looked at Mat and declared him "too much like me"

lol

 

That WAS a great line.

 

As for Berelain - my heart belongs to Moraine and always will, but my body... well, let's just say that what Moraine doesn't know about while she's all locked up in the Ghenji Tower won't kill her.  ;)

 

hahahah thats naughty  ;)

[thewalrus777]

I'm just glad this whole business with Perrin and the Shaido is over with. It just turned my favorite character into a very WHINY individual. Perrin was such a badass during TSR, and by the end of Shaido story arc, i just wanted to tell him to shut the f*%$ up! I for one am also glad that there will be no more Masema as well.

[Vambram]

*shakes head*

Of course, everyone is completely entitled to his or her own opinion. However, I truly doubt that Robert Jordan would have said or agreed with the opinion that Perrin had become a "whiny individual."