Perrin and Faile's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[Aleron688]

... how hard can perrin throw? and how good is his accuracy?

 

if he can huck a hammer at galad's head and hit him, then i'm betting on perrin.  other than that, Galad has the advantage in the longer reach.

 

of course perrin could just call on some of his puppy friends and that would pwn galad's swordsmanship.

[jemron]

While Perrin is tough and cool, he's no match for a trained fighter such as Galad, IMO.  Galad hands down.

[Muad Cheade]

Well, Aram nearly beat Perrin - he was only saved by outside intervention.

 

Perrin was already wounded and exhausted from the battle of Malden. Aram's betrayal didn't come until after hours of battle.

 

i'm betting on perrin.  other than that, Galad has the advantage in the longer reach.

 

So did the Shaido.

 

While Perrin is tough and cool, he's no match for a trained fighter such as Galad, IMO.  Galad hands down.

 

The same trained fighter who was taken down along with his brother by a sickly man with a quarterstaff?

 

I do want to see Perrin when he goes all Enter the Dragon Wolf on Whitecloaks. I'm not sure that many could go toe-to-toe with him when his eyesight is tinted red. It is unlikely it comes to blows (atleast where Perrin and Galad are concerned.

[jemron]

While Perrin is tough and cool, he's no match for a trained fighter such as Galad, IMO.  Galad hands down.

 

The same trained fighter who was taken down along with his brother by a sickly man with a quarterstaff?

 

I do want to see Perrin when he goes all Enter the Dragon Wolf on Whitecloaks. I'm not sure that many could go toe-to-toe with him when his eyesight is tinted red. It is unlikely it comes to blows (atleast where Perrin and Galad are concerned.

 

I forgot about that little Mat fight...  Hmm... Maybe I have to reconsider.  Still, realistically, even Mat shouldn't have won.  Since this is all speculative and hypothetical, I still think realistically Galad would win.  Now, throw RJ's imagination and things like Ta'veren into the mix, and Perrin probably would win because he's more important to the story  :)

[mateodh]

All good points. Galad might be the most battleworthy non-channeler in Randland, but Perrin has a lot going for him as well. Size and strength are downplayed in favor of technique a lot, but it does give Perrin a significant advantage, not that Galad's lacking in muscle.

[Ahaz Flagg]

  I would really and truly like to say that my opinion of Perrin and Falie has changed. But the sad truth is, Perrin admitted he was slime ball, and Falie is still not on my list of favorite people in the book.  I do however feel, either Brandon or Robert have tried to change our opinion of both. 

 

  In the end, Perrin was still willing to risk all of the children he was so worried about back with the trollocs in the two rivers. There can never be redemption for him.  Falie is still a spoiled, over bearing, jealous twit. 

 

  In conclusion, some main people need to die, it is my dearest hope they both end up in a trolloc cook pot.

[Calderis]

All good points. Galad might be the most battleworthy non-channeler in Randland, but Perrin has a lot going for him as well. Size and strength are downplayed in favor of technique a lot, but it does give Perrin a significant advantage, not that Galad's lacking in muscle.

 

They're played down because, while strength is definitely a factor, Form and speed are usually far more important. Strength only makes a difference when a blow connects. Form and Technique help ensure you make that connection.

[mateodh]

All good points. Galad might be the most battleworthy non-channeler in Randland, but Perrin has a lot going for him as well. Size and strength are downplayed in favor of technique a lot, but it does give Perrin a significant advantage, not that Galad's lacking in muscle.

 

They're played down because, while strength is definitely a factor, Form and speed are usually far more important. Strength only makes a difference when a blow connects. Form and Technique help ensure you make that connection.

 

What you say is true. But in stories there is this sort of "David factor" where people root for the little guy, or rather are more inclined to overlook size as a whole, even if someone is Goliath-sized. The fact that Perrin is simply bigger means a lot of things. If the battle should run long, Perrin probably won't wear down as much. That big axe gives Perrin a larger margin for error. If they should be disarmed Galad is done for. Bear hug. If by chance they don armor, axe vs sword is even more in favor of axe. Nicks and cuts like we experienced in the Valda bout are less significant to someone with Perrin's mass. The story always seems to go that the bigger guy is arrogant and slow, to the point where the smaller has an edge. Not always so, and Perrin is at least humble enough to prepare properly.

[Mr Ares]

Double post.

[Mr Ares]

Well, Aram nearly beat Perrin - he was only saved by outside intervention.

 

Perrin was already wounded and exhausted from the battle of Malden. Aram's betrayal didn't come until after hours of battle.

Aram was fighting in the same battle. So they started from the same point.

 

While Perrin is tough and cool, he's no match for a trained fighter such as Galad, IMO.  Galad hands down.

The same trained fighter who was taken down along with his brother by a sickly man with a quarterstaff?

Jaerom was the best swordsman, and only ever beaten by a guy with a staff. Staff and hammer are quite different weapons. For one thing, the staff is lighter than a hammer, so you'll get worn out much quicker with the hammer. The longer the fight, the more it tilts away from Perrin.

[Eleint]

They're played down because, while strength is definitely a factor, Form and speed are usually far more important. Strength only makes a difference when a blow connects. Form and Technique help ensure you make that connection.

 

Geek fallacy alert.

 

This is entirely not so.  Outside fantasy fiction, strong warriors tend to be fast.  It's all about how your muscles work.  There's a reason you don't see featherweight people in heavyweight boxing matches, and so on.  Skill has a component, yes.  But if the people are anywhere near each other in skill, size and power are major components.

 

Or in other words, in reality (rather than fantasy fiction), the dagger-wielder does not dance in to kill the swordsman in any sort of equal battlefield.  Strength and power are -very- important.

 

(Before anyone brings it up: No, I'm not talking about a guy falling off a horse and getting obliterated by semi-spartha/gladiuses, which are basically long knives.  Yes, this happened with the Romans, but this was because the guy just got knocked off a horse.)

[Calderis]

They're played down because, while strength is definitely a factor, Form and speed are usually far more important. Strength only makes a difference when a blow connects. Form and Technique help ensure you make that connection.

 

Geek fallacy alert.

 

This is entirely not so.  Outside fantasy fiction, strong warriors tend to be fast.  It's all about how your muscles work.  There's a reason you don't see featherweight people in heavyweight boxing matches, and so on.  Skill has a component, yes.  But if the people are anywhere near each other in skill, size and power are major components.

 

Or in other words, in reality (rather than fantasy fiction), the dagger-wielder does not dance in to kill the swordsman in any sort of equal battlefield.  Strength and power are -very- important.

 

(Before anyone brings it up: No, I'm not talking about a guy falling off a horse and getting obliterated by semi-spartha/gladiuses, which are basically long knives.  Yes, this happened with the Romans, but this was because the guy just got knocked off a horse.)

 

We're talking a one on one fight here. Axes and hammers worked great on a battlefield because they negated armor and made up for their lack of speed due to chaos, but in a one on one fight, due to training the loss of speed no where made up for the difference between an axe or hammer, and the mixture of strength, defensive capability and strength that a sword provided.

 

Trying to say that's some "geek fallacy" when you take Perrin, who by all accounts has trained with the axe or hammer fairly minimally and knows what he knows more instinctivly from use in the field, to Galad who has trained with the sword with Galad under Garath Bryne and and later with the whitecloaks, and trying to say that this is, outside of possible Ta'varen chance augmentation, anywhere near a fair fight is rediculous.

[Eleint]

We're talking a one on one fight here. Axes and hammers worked great on a battlefield because they negated armor and made up for their lack of speed due to chaos, but in a one on one fight, due to training the loss of speed no where made up for the difference between an axe or hammer, and the mixture of strength, defensive capability and strength that a sword provided.

 

You're missing a few variables, including reach and the fact that outside fantasy fiction, again, hammers and axes didn't weigh -that much-.  We're taking on average 7-8 pounds for the big ones.  I, of course, am taking weapons actually used in war and not parade-ground weapons, which tended to be a lot heavier.

 

There's a reason people didn't field armies of dagger-wielders.  The closest would be, as I said before, the Roman infantry when they knocked cavalry off horses.  They'd use their semi-spartha to kill them before they got up again.

 

I'll stand by my 'geek fallacy' statement. Also, I'm not the one who first brought realism into it.  That was Jemron.

 

Trying to say that's some "geek fallacy" when you take Perrin, who by all accounts has trained with the axe or hammer fairly minimally and knows what he knows more instinctivly from use in the field, to Galad who has trained with the sword with Galad under Garath Bryne and and later with the whitecloaks, and trying to say that this is, outside of possible Ta'varen chance augmentation, anywhere near a fair fight is rediculous.

 

I was arguing from the POV of realism, which I mentioned before.  This is a fantasy novel, true enough.  Which basically means the person who's the main character will win as in-setting strength warriors and quick warriors are viable.  But that doesn't negate all of the rather prominent and totally fallacious statements about speed being so much more important than power being thrown about.

 

I'm just waiting for the 'katana can cut through a tank!' now. :)

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

I don't know where else to put this, so here it goes. I think Galad will end up First Prince to Elayne. Gawyn will probably be bonded to Egwene and that will be his full time job most likely. Galad on the other hand has always been worked up by Elayne as this horrendous brother(in a sisterly way of course) and how he'd never be her First Prince and they don't get along. That'd probably end up be some nice foreshadowing/funny moments if Galad ended up becoming just that.

 

That and Gawyn really doesn't deserve it considering that he's spent half the series shirking his responsibilities to Andor in order to chase a skirt.  The minute he heard that Morgase had been "killed" he should have made a B-line to Camelyn to help secure the thrown for Elayne.  This easily outweighs his obligation to the WT since he has known since he was in the cradle that his purpose in life would be to defend Elayne and Andor.  On the other hand, the moment Galad saw Elayne he wanted to escort her right back to Camelyn where she belonged.  Had he been successful it may have had some repercussions in other parts of the story, but Galad had no way of knowing what would happen in Salidar or Ebou Dar so we can't fault him for seeing this as the right thing to do.  So which of the two seems to understand his obligations to his queen and country and which is a selfish bastard?

[jemron]

Is it sad to anybody else that Perrin's current plotline is so stale and dull that we can only discuss who he would beat in a fight?  ;D

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

Is it sad to anybody else that Perrin's current plotline is so stale and dull that we can only discuss who he would beat in a fight?  ;D

 

Well, Elyas and Gaul are cool but they get so little face time that you hardly notice.  Aram was interesting but there's not much left to say about him.  Then there's Mesema but he has his own thread.  Beyond this there's not much to work with, the Morgase crew, the Ghelledain (sp) queen, those fake Aiel idots that follow Faile around, just not that interesting.

 

Then there is Berelain, the antithesis of dull, but she was nowhere to be found in TGS  :-[

 

Oh and Grady and Neald, I love these guys!!  I don't know if its just coincidence of if Rand chose them to go with Perrin for this reason but these two to could rival even Flinn and Narishma in their loyalty to Rand.

 

So I guess there are some interesting in folks in Perrin's crew after all.  I think the problem is that Perrin just didn't have much of a plotline in TGS.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

I would really and truly like to say that my opinion of Perrin and Falie has changed. But the sad truth is, Perrin admitted he was slime ball, and Falie is still not on my list of favorite people in the book.  I do however feel, either Brandon or Robert have tried to change our opinion of both.  

 

Well Perrin certainly hasn't been on his best behavior in the latter half of the series but c'mon it takes a big man to admit when he's been a slime ball.  There are many men who go their entire lives without doing so.  Faile is perhaps the most misunderstood character in the entire series.  She is the product of her culture which makes her stuborn and overbearing but underneath it all her #1 concern is to do what's best for Perrin and their marriage as she sees it.   The problem is that it is all "as she sees it", so despite her good intentions she does need to realize the her worldview is not the only one.  I think she has made some progress and slowly but surely she is beginning to come around.  

 

In the end, Perrin was still willing to risk all of the children he was so worried about back with the trollocs in the two rivers

.

 

Its not so cut and dried as that.  The Two Rivers men love Faile and are very loyal to her.  I'm sure they were quite willing to risk themselves and would have thought even less of Perrin had he done nothing to help her.

 

There can never be redemption for him.

 

C'mon now that's a bit harsh.  At least Perrin is beginning to see the error of his ways and is big enough to admit his mistakes.  As I said some men never do this.  If Verin and Ingtar could find redemption then so can Perrin.   Perrin is experiencing exactly what Elyas warned him about in advising him to abandon his axe when he began to feel too reliant on it.  He was of course referring to the exaggerated desire to fight.  I suspect this is something that comes with being a wolf brother and is probably what lead Elyas to quit being a warder.   I don't understand why so many people have been so willingly given up on Perrin.   Mark my words this internal struggle will just make him seem that much cooler when he finally does come around.

 

In conclusion, some main people need to die

,

 

I agree but I'm not sure which ones.  Of the Two Rivers folk Perrin along with Egwene does seems to be the most appropriate but not as punishment for his slime ball behavior.  More because a self sacrafice seems appropriate for his character and his plotline.  

 

it is my dearest hope they both end up in a trolloc cook pot

.

 

Man that's just cold.

 

[Calderis]

Eleint, I'll agree to disagree, having handled both type of weapons, balance issues, and weight on swing, miss/ready times... yeah...

 

There's a reason battle type Hammers and Axes are derived from tool's, but the sword serves only one function.

[rubbernilly]

Standard blacksmithing hammer (remember, that's what Perrin is using to pound on other men's skulls) is under 4 lbs.

 

This site (http://www.anvilfire.com/FAQs/hammerwt_index.htm) lists the common weights for hammers, as well as the standard range for blacksmiths. That range stops below 4 pounds.

 

This site (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Down'n'dirty_Blacksmithing/Tools,_Materials,_and_Supplies#Hammers)notes that many contend that the standard smithing hammer of the 19th century weighed in at 4 lbs.

 

Not a whole heck of a lot of weight, but then again... try swinging it around for 5 or 10 minutes and let's see how you feel after.

 

Also, whoever said that Perrin would do better as the fight wore on because of his muscle mass... has never had much muscle mass. Large muscles, like Perrin's, might produce more power but they are also going to fatigue faster. That's why heavy weight fighters seem to wear down quicker than lighter weights. The big muscles demand oxygen, and so they fill up with blood. They slow down. The fast-twitch muscles don't have good capillary support, so they really on anaerobic metabolism... not good enough or fast enough in a fight. The longer the fight goes, the better for the fighter with the Galad-type build.

 

Take ta'averen out of it, and Galad fillets Perrin.

 

Remember that Galad could best Gawyn, and in tGS we see Gawyn best Sleet and 2 others. Sleet, it was mentioned, took something like 3 out of 10 bouts from Lan, who is accounted among the best swordsmen alive. So work that out, and you've got one hell of a swordsman in Galad. Perrin... well, unadulterated, animal fury is only going to get you so far.

[DPT24]

I've got a question for the people who hate Perrin/Faile.  Do you hate the Aes Sedi?  Or Rand?  Or Elayne?

[mateodh]

whoever said that Perrin would do better as the fight wore on because of his muscle mass... has never had much muscle mass.

 

I've got more than most people do. But I will concede that that statement is derived from sports activity, not combat experience. Over the course of a baseball season, mass has a lot to do with how you hold up, how deep you can pitch into games, which involves swinging bats 50 times or more, including batting practice, and then being able to throw hundreds of pitches.

[Vermillion]

whoever said that Perrin would do better as the fight wore on because of his muscle mass... has never had much muscle mass.

 

I've got more than most people do. But I will concede that that statement is derived from sports activity, not combat experience. Over the course of a baseball season, mass has a lot to do with how you hold up, how deep you can pitch into games, which involves swinging bats 50 times or more, including batting practice, and then being able to throw hundreds of pitches.

 

That's not true.  Some of those muscle builders have terrible endurance because they don't want to lose mass doing any cardio.  The guy giving me the endurance test said some big muscle bound guys fail while I passed easily and am what folks call 90 pounds soaking wet(6'3" 166-175 pound range).  This other guy who passed the fire fighter test was small short and lean said the same with big guys failing the weight carrying endurance test. 

[DPT24]

On the Perrin/Galad thing, I'd have to say Galad, he is after all a blademaster.

 

Otherwise, on the strength/skill thing, both are needed. No warrior/fighter is going to make it without being physiclally strong, at least to the best of their abilities.  But, skill is neccesary, otherwise the wepon can get in it's users way. 

[rubbernilly]

Over the course of a baseball season, mass has a lot to do with how you hold up, how deep you can pitch into games, which involves swinging bats 50 times or more, including batting practice, and then being able to throw hundreds of pitches.

 

I see the problem... you're treating baseball like a sport.

 

:)

(Relax, I'm just yanking your chain.)

[rubbernilly]

Here is a question...

 

Grady and Neald claim that they are too tired to open a gateway, or to hold open a gateway for very long.

 

Why don't they tie off the weaves and leave the gateway stand for a day while people file through?

 

People tie off weaves all the time and then go to sleep. And since you can only work Spirit while you are sleeping, it cannot be that a tied-off weave continues to drain the channeler even though they have released the source. G & N could theoretically rest while they let people file through.