Mat's Plotline (Spoilers for the whole book)

[Jonn]

Mat did not evolve.  He suddenly became Lightsong from Warbreaker.  Don't get me wrong, Sanderson did an amazing job.  I absolutely loved the book and I thought he did a great job with the majority of characters.  Mat has been my favorite POV in the series for the last several books.  I found it painful to see his POV reduced to forced, ultra cheesy "wit".  It's like Sanderson discarded everything that was the character and replaced it with a knock-knock joke.  Mat is a scamp, not a wit.

 

 

I REALLLLLYYYY disliked the way Mat was written in this book. Really.

He was almost unrecognizable.

The "external" jokes were not really funny. It got tedious, and even characters like Talmanes didn't ring true anymore.

 

The Aludra/Mat dynamic did take a nice turn though. I really never read anything overtly serious about their relationship, but in this book Mat somehow has a romantic interest in her. I actually found that I liked this.

Domon has gotten a horrible treatment. Egeanin felt flat.

 

Thom pretty much remained constant.

 

Overall I liked the book. Enough of RJ was intact that it was very enjoyable, but it was the Mat parts that really stood out like a sore thumb to me.

Really took me almost out of the whole book.

[Demon_AS]

To those who are afraid of Mat's POV:

 

I think it is because we did not get to focus alot on his character this book. KoD was very much his. Brandon Sanderson has admitted that tGS will be focused on two main characters. Quite obvious that it was Egwene and Rand.

 

On to other stuff. I have mixed feelings on whether Olver goes in. Moiraine says quite explicitly that it must be three to enter and save her. no more no less. Do I think he could be the third somehow......no. Mainly because Noal has to do something. Olver I'm sure will get into trouble somehow while they are in there. possibly a skirmish. like a defend the outside while the guys are in rescuing.

I don't disagree with you.

 

But what about the idea that Olver is the "cheater's fourth"? After all... you need to cheat to beat those damned Snakes and bloody Foxes ;).

 

That's what I was getting at in my post(s).

[jemron]

Did Moiraine specifically say only three could come in and save her, or only three men could come in and save her?  Olver is not a man, he's a kid, so technically he could come along, depending on what Moiraine specifically said.  Heck, we know so little of the Snakes and Foxes rules... Maybe they made an agreement with the humans back in the day that no more than 3 men could enter their world at one time... So they'll be partially cheating by bringing a fourth 'child.'

 

All speculation of course.  Does anybody have the exact wording of Moiraine's letter handy?

[Declan]

See, It doesn't specify three men. (You can look at the letter in the glossary of tGS) It says:    "If you try, it must be only you and Mat and one other. More will mean death for all. Fewer will mean death for all."

 

So it actually doesn't even specify a full grown Man as the third. I do understand your cheating bit, but i think the cheating will have to be done with the iron, fire, and music somehow. Not a fourth guy.

[lillcheese]

See, It doesn't specify three men. (You can look at the letter in the glossary of tGS) It says:     "If you try, it must be only you and Mat and one other. More will mean death for all. Fewer will mean death for all."

 

So it actually doesn't even specify a full grown Man as the third. I do understand your cheating bit, but i think the cheating will have to be done with the iron, fire, and music somehow. Not a fourth guy.

 

Doesn't she go on to say that it will be Thom, Mat and a man she does not know?  Hard to think that she'd mistake Olver for a Man.

[jemron]

Ok.  I was too lazy to go get my book and double-check... But that makes more sense.  I'm sure you're right about the cheating using fire, iron, music... That will be how they "cheat."  Didn't Rand cheat when he went into the doorway in Tear by using a sword of fire?  I wonder just what the actual effects are?

[lillcheese]

Ok.  I was too lazy to go get my book and double-check... But that makes more sense.  I'm sure you're right about the cheating using fire, iron, music... That will be how they "cheat."  Didn't Rand cheat when he went into the doorway in Tear by using a sword of fire?  I wonder just what the actual effects are?

 

We know that Rand's use of the fire sword was not enough to keep them off his back.  They were still pushing him out the door.  

 

I'm pretty sure that the number of people who can come rescue has to do with the properties of Finnland.  I don't think that cheating by bringing Olver in as the Fourth can happen.  When Moraine, Rand and Mat all go through the door in Tear, a bell tolls, things start crumbling, the snakes discuss whether they have time to answer Mat's questions. They're so desperate for the memories after so long getting nothing that they're willing to risk it, but hurry him along. They're so desperate to get rid of him that they actually answer more than 3 questions for him.  By refusing to leave, Mat's already cheated and won with them, though I doubt he realizes it.  

[Declan]

See, It doesn't specify three men. (You can look at the letter in the glossary of tGS) It says:     "If you try, it must be only you and Mat and one other. More will mean death for all. Fewer will mean death for all."

 

So it actually doesn't even specify a full grown Man as the third. I do understand your cheating bit, but i think the cheating will have to be done with the iron, fire, and music somehow. Not a fourth guy.

 

Doesn't she go on to say that it will be Thom, Mat and a man she does not know?  Hard to think that she'd mistake Olver for a Man.

Well, she ACTUALLY writes what you are saying before what i quoted. The quote that i chose felt to me like its style of writing made it stand out and be more important. But i do see what you mean. Just for general knowledge. I am not in the "Olver is the Third" camp. I think it's Noal.

 

To back your point; she has actually seen them live and die at the attempts, so i think she would have written that it was a boy as the third.

[Demon_AS]

Olver is definitely not the Third :). It has to be Noal...

 

I was idly speculating with the idea that Olver could be the Hidden Fourth, but I guess cheating through use of fire, iron and music makes more sense.

 

I can't help but shake this feeling that Olver will be somehow instrumental to their success. That kid's been linked with the Snakes and Foxes game too much for it to be mere coincidence, you know?

[Declan]

yeah, i understand. He might figure out exactly how to cheat with the iron and so forth. Does he even know that to win the game you have to cheat? his epiphany might come when that does.

[Vorkia]

Morrraine's instructions were based on what she saw when she went to Rhudeiun(ps?) No one knows how far into that future she saw.  Isn't it possible that Oliver is there but she is unaware of his presence?  Or he appears after her vision ended?  There are too many loopholes to rule out his presence completely.  Besides didn't RJ say that Oliver plays an important role in the storyline when he was discrediting him being Gidal?  Grant it, it doesn't necessarily mean this particular circumstance, but there are too many references to Oliver with the Snake and Foxes game for me to think its a mere coincidence.

[jemron]

 

I can't help but shake this feeling that Olver will be somehow instrumental to their success. That kid's been linked with the Snakes and Foxes game too much for it to be mere coincidence, you know?

 

Agreed.  But, RJ always liked to use Red Herrings too... So who really knows.  My guess is he will give them some key to the puzzle before they go into the tower, but he won't go in with them.

 

Maybe he'll help them discover HOW to get in...  We still don't know exactly how to get in through the tower.

[Durinax]

 

I can't help but shake this feeling that Olver will be somehow instrumental to their success. That kid's been linked with the Snakes and Foxes game too much for it to be mere coincidence, you know?

 

Agreed.  But, RJ always liked to use Red Herrings too... So who really knows.  My guess is he will give them some key to the puzzle before they go into the tower, but he won't go in with them.

 

Maybe he'll help them discover HOW to get in...  We still don't know exactly how to get in through the tower.

I figured that either Verin figured it out (and its in the letter) or else brigette will tell mat how to get in. Dont we know to get in you have to draw a symbol on the tower with a bronze dagger or some such

[Declan]

 

I figured that either Verin figured it out (and its in the letter) or else brigette will tell mat how to get in. Dont we know to get in you have to draw a symbol on the tower with a bronze dagger or some such

 

It must be the symbol that you start the game of Snakes and Foxes. The triangle with the wavy line through it. Thats what i immediately thought of when Moiraine mentioned the game in her letter.

[Demon_AS]

 

I can't help but shake this feeling that Olver will be somehow instrumental to their success. That kid's been linked with the Snakes and Foxes game too much for it to be mere coincidence, you know?

 

Agreed.  But, RJ always liked to use Red Herrings too... So who really knows.  My guess is he will give them some key to the puzzle before they go into the tower, but he won't go in with them.

 

Maybe he'll help them discover HOW to get in...  We still don't know exactly how to get in through the tower.

Yeah, it'll probably be something small but significant. Those "priceless" moments without which our hero wouldn't have solved the riddle lol.

[lillcheese]

 

I can't help but shake this feeling that Olver will be somehow instrumental to their success. That kid's been linked with the Snakes and Foxes game too much for it to be mere coincidence, you know?

 

Agreed.  But, RJ always liked to use Red Herrings too... So who really knows.  My guess is he will give them some key to the puzzle before they go into the tower, but he won't go in with them.

 

Maybe he'll help them discover HOW to get in...  We still don't know exactly how to get in through the tower.

Yeah, it'll probably be something small but significant. Those "priceless" moments without which our hero wouldn't have solved the riddle lol.

 

Birgitte told Olver how to get into the ToG, that's how we, the readers, and Mat know you draw the symbol with bronze? on the tower.  

[au Quiksilver]

About Mat's plotline:

 

I believe Mat quite simply spoke too much. That is why his character felt different, and I think B.S. was well aware of the difference. He was explaining his actions far too much in this book. Whether that was intentional(Mat + Marriage = uncertain of himself) or Sanderson boiling down the 'essence of Mat'.

 

I didn't mind his character in this book, but it did feel different and that is why I think it did.

[Cheese Ninja]

Setalle Anan had a different experience wearing an adam bracelet than Leane and Siuan did when they were stilled.  They could still sense Moghedian, even if they couldn't use the source through her or transmit feelings/emotions back.  Setalle's reaction to wearing an adam (when seeing if she would be able to sneak out the Aes Sedai out of Ebou Dar) was that she felt nothing. 

 

Then again, it's been 2 or 3 years since I read the books, so let me double check this.... I was partially wrong.

 

They never try to make Moghedian walk while Leane or Siuan are wearing the adam.  When Joline tried to walk with Setalle wearing the bracelet, Joline got the usual pain.  Setalle also makes no indication that she can feel Joline's emotions.  I personally don't think burning out is Healable, nor do I think that if Siuan or Leane were stilled again that a man would be able to heal them to their full former strength, only to their current strength.

[tneva82]

Maybe he'll help them discover HOW to get in...  We still don't know exactly how to get in through the tower.

 

Am I just imagining it or didn't they figure that one out? Draw the symbol of snakes&foxes game with bronze knife to tower? I could swear I remember reading that one.

[ohaitharguiz]

Perhaps Birgitte will go in with him. I can see her and the gaidal questions getting some answers there.

[kac_04]

I believe it will be Matt, Thom, and Noal. Noal has to do something in this series. He can't just be a by-standered. There are no by-standereds. I have been wondering what his purpose is in this and when I found out about the rescue, I just knew that it had to be Noal.

 

If it is Noal, maybe in the tower we will get answers about his past and who he really is. I think he is a darkfriend spying on Matt. Or someone trying to make up for something they did in their past that has to deal with the Shadow. I think the Shadow is somehow involved with Noal.

 

I highly doubt Olver will be the third person. But he has an involvment in the Tower as well. His role has concentrated on the game Snakes and Foxes the whole time. There is something there for him I think.

[Nakor]

About Mat and the tower:

Wouldn't it be better to cheat the Rand-way - punch the other player into the face?

 

So, instead of trying to smuggle something in, image Mat and Noal bristling with knifes and lit torches, and Thom harping and singing when they enter the tower ... ;D

[Mr Ares]

Stilling can be Healed since there is something to heal—they can still sense the Source but not touch it, but being burned out cannot since they can not even feel the TS.

That says nothing about whether or not it can be Healed, nor does it imply anything. Really, there's no evidence to say it can't be Healed (although there are a lot of analogies). Try checking out some of the discussions about Ronaille, Irgain and Sashalle, sometime. They were the three AS Rand "stilled" at Dumai's Wells, but it has been argued that the description is closer to burning out. And as they were Healed, it is possible that not only can burning out be Healed, it has been. Like I say, look it up some time.

 

Setalle Anan had a different experience wearing an adam bracelet than Leane and Siuan did when they were stilled. They could still sense Moghedian, even if they couldn't use the source through her or transmit feelings/emotions back. Setalle's reaction to wearing an adam (when seeing if she would be able to sneak out the Aes Sedai out of Ebou Dar) was that she felt nothing.

We don't know what, if anything, Setalle felt. We do know that she couldn't use it, but then Siuan and Leane couldn't use Moghedien's a'dam. Also, bear in mind the a'dam were different. Moggy had freedom of movement, Joline didn't. Had Moggy been wearing the normal a'dam, she would have suffered if a stilled woman tried to mmove her a'dam.

[Swigaro]

In regards to "Olver as the Cheating 4th."

 

Remember, it isn't the 'Finn's rules that say only three can enter, its Moiraine's rules.  The fact that they will likely have to cheat to win doesn't change the fact that Moiraine made it clear that if any number of rescuers other than 3 attempt to save her, they will all die.  I find it hard to believe that Olver will accompany them into the tower.  I think it far more likley that he will give them vital info, or perspective on how to deal with the 'Finns...  In fact, by passing on the secret of getting into the tower, he may have served his intended purpose already...

[Muad Cheade]

That says nothing about whether or not it can be Healed, nor does it imply anything. Really, there's no evidence to say it can't be Healed (although there are a lot of analogies). Try checking out some of the discussions about Ronaille, Irgain and Sashalle, sometime. They were the three AS Rand "stilled" at Dumai's Wells, but it has been argued that the description is closer to burning out. And as they were Healed, it is possible that not only can burning out be Healed, it has been. Like I say, look it up some time.

 

Really? I didn't know of that theory. Rand was the catalyst for their removal from the One Power. That would indicate a severing not burning out. They were severed when Rand broke through the shield not by overdrawing on the Power. Although, if you are right, it would be an interesting twist.