No, Balefire Does Not Work Like that. (-- 2009 Empy Award Winner!)

[JenniferL]

I see balefire popping in a couple of other threads, and since it's a complicated thing, I figure we might as well make a new thread for it.

 

Before you get too crazy, I suggest reviewing our previous thread on OP shenanigans. http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,22755.0.html

 

Have at it.

[Reeds]

  (Fine a little re-post, since it was so nicely suggested)

 

    Ok so I'm probably wrong, but, While there has been some speculation about unraveling the mystery of who killed Asmodean, and i knew there was supposed to be something about it in this book, i found no direct mention of it. But what did reach out of the book and whack me over the head was Grandal's death.

 

  Assuming for a moment that it was in-fact Grandal who killed Asmodean(ducks quickly, just go with it for a second) And Rand used an extremely powerful weave of balefire to off Grandal....Maybe the discussion of Amsodean's killer is pointless, considering he might not be so dead anymore...

 

  It would be fun to see 'Jasin Natael' run into Mat in the next book  ;D  Just a thought anyway.

[lillcheese]

I don't think even all that BF could reach back so far to bring Asmo back.  I'm bad with keeping track of timelines but, I thought it's been at least a year since Asmo kicked it.

[mossman87]

I don't think even all that BF could reach back so far to bring Asmo back.  I'm bad with keeping track of timelines but, I thought it's been at least a year since Asmo kicked it.

 

Problem is we've never seen balefire of that magnitude, so really we don't know, a year could be plausible.

 

I will say, that if Graendal killed Asmo, this is totally the reason RJ kept it secret for so long.

 

However I don't believe Asmo is coming back. :)

[singogreatest360]

Would be cool if he did! Then he turns to the Light.

 

I REALLY don't want him to come back though

[richnewton82]

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[blanklook]

I've seen a lot of speculation about Amos and Graendal's deaths. I think its important to keep in mind that balefire does not undo the past actions of those who have been balefired, in other words history is not simply erased, but instead removes the present affects of those past actions.

 

[wotjunkie]

another question i wonder about is "do items have a thread in the tapestry?" they have as much ability to change the course of a persons thread as entity's do

 

e.g it could be argued that only things that live have threads, but trees live if you cut down a tree and make a bench out of it have you cut the trees thread from the pattern or have you just changed it from one state to another?

 

also if a person dies (non BF death) their thread isn't really cut from the pattern only put on hold until such time as they are reborn.

 

or maybe my understanding is wrong, but thats why we have forums so we can question and better hope to understand  ;D

 

BF has always been a grey area for me  :-\

[Thorn]

Note: if Graendal was slain by so much balefire that Asmodean is resurrected (checking the dates, it'd be approximately a year back), then Kumira Sedai would also be resurrected, as she died facing Graendal at Shadar Logoth.

 

I consider this unlikely; in Fires of Heaven, when Moiraine speaks of entire cities ripped from the pattern with Balefire, she describes the timeframe as "gone for days already past." To me, this indicates that even with Balefire large enough to wipe out a whole city,  the timeframe "undone" is a matter of days, not weeks or months, and certainly not a full year. Still, though, it's possible.

[kevin-nivek]

Whats the furthest time altering balefire have we seen? Rahvin dying changed like an hour right? and that was rand throwing everything he had with an angreal at it. So i doubt even the massive one rand kills graendal with is gonna change months or even years (not sure how long ago asmodean died)

[richnewton82]

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[Leezus]

Ever since Moraine first explained the nature of Balefire, I've been waiting for it to be used as a major plot device. It's been used a few times, such as Rhavin's death and the reversal of Mat/Asmodean/Avhienda's deaths, but that wasn't it being used as a plot device, but just an example of how it works.  Then comes Graendal. Using the compulsion weave as a litmus for Graendal's death was brilliant, but still not as big as I was hoping to see. The Graendal/Asmodean theory though, would be impeccable, and having liked Asmodean so much, I really hope it turns out to be the case.

 

But as many have pointed out, it's highly unlikely, but not really for any of the reasons people have given. The most important thing, is that we have no idea how the ammount of power used correlates to how far back the person's thread is burned. Furthermore, we don't really have any idea how to relate how much power Rand is using at different times of using balefire. For instance, Rand used a fairly powerful blast on Rhavin using supposedly the full strength of an angreal, but I don't remember much reference to how strong exactly that angreal he had was. It's been said that angreal typically give twice the total strength of a user's normal capabilites, and then an Sa'angreal gives as much a gain. But Callandor is no mere Sa'angreal, giving many times the power of other Sa'angreal, and then CK is even considerably more powerful than Callandor. If we're assuming a linear correlation between Power and Time with Balefire, with the relation of power between Rand's quantifiable uses of Balefire still left as a variable, it leaves the possibility of Graendal's thread being burnt back a year very unlikely, but not impossible. However, if we consider the possibility that the relation between Time and Power is not linear, but parabolic or even exponential, the realm of possibility is widened, well, exponentially. After all, if Rand's normal uses of balefire, such as his first use on the Darkhounds that attacked Mat, which only resulted in perhaps a couple minutes of Time burnt from those threads, and the increase with the attack on Rhavin burnt away an hour, then that itself is a 20-60 fold increase (again, veeery wide variables here). With a linear relation, we'd have to assume then that Rand's blast on Rhavin was 20-60 times greater than those small, but not inconsequential blasts used on the Darkhounds. Which is possible, but for the sake of my argument, I'll doubt it.

 

For another thing, I think people are very much downplaying the blast of Balefire that Rand used on Graendal. As regards to the cities wiped away during the War of Power with balefire, there are a couple things to consider. First, balefire was abandoned after not too long by both sides, and the CK was not made for sometime after the War had begun. I doubt it had ever been used for Balefire before. Second, those cities were detroyed by Balefire, but not necessarily a single blast. Rand took quite a bit of time preparing the blast that he used, and I think it's possibly that with the CK, he might have used the most powerful Balefire ever woven.

 

Wheeew, that got complex. Hope I was coherent to others. As Mr Bohr once said, "Never express yourself more simply than you think."

 

Of course, it all seemed so much simpler before I expressed it. Weird.

[richnewton82]

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[Thorn]

 

For another thing, I think people are very much downplaying the blast of Balefire that Rand used on Graendal. As regards to the cities wiped away during the War of Power with balefire, there are a couple things to consider. First, balefire was abandoned after not too long by both sides, and the CK was not made for sometime after the War had begun. I doubt it had ever been used for Balefire before. Second, those cities were detroyed by Balefire, but not necessarily a single blast. Rand took quite a bit of time preparing the blast that he used, and I think it's possibly that with the CK, he might have used the most powerful Balefire ever woven.

 

Those are good points, as was your point that the time/power curve with balefire might not be linear. There's probably good odds that you're correct about that particular blast  of Balefire being the most powerful single blast ever (or at least in this set of turnings of the Wheel), though we can't be sure (I imagine the city-destroying blasts in the AoL were done with linked circles and other sa'angreal of lesser power than the Choedan Kal).

 

Still, though, I think it unlikely that Asmodean has returned, if only because he has no role in the series at this point. Rand's reintegrated; he doesn't need instruction any more. With only two books left, there just isn't room for him.

[Durinax]

ok I am too lazy to read all the long posts so this is how I think of it so far, and if I am wrong please explain in short sentences for easier reading:

ok I imagine the pattern as a clothe, and you when you BF a thread the rest bend closer together changing how things are currently.

The only actions that are changed are actions done directly by the person who gets BFed, such as weaving OP, pushing an object, killing someone, etc.

Now as for the domination circlet thinger rand completely destroyed it (also I think SH took it) but Rand and Min's position didnt change, because their actions where only forced by Semi, the actions still happened because they where preformed by other people.

[WWWwombat]

1.  Moridin balefires Bela

2.  Mule balefires Moridin

3.  Bela balefires mule

4.  ????

5.  PROFIT!!!

[Leezus]

Oh yeah, I agree completely. Like, I said, it's incredibly unlikely that Asmodean is returned, no matter how much I would like for him to be, and no matter how theoretically possible it might be, simply because there's no reason for him to return.

 

Although, that still leaves the question as to why his death had to be so mysterious, but oh well, we'll find out soon enough. Besides, this here thread is about Balefire, not Asmodean, so I don't think I could add anything anyhow.

[Stevros]

If the BF had gone that far back then why would Italrude have gone out of Arad Doman; most of the chaos would have been undone from Sammael would never have been able to approach the Shaido (without an "Aes Sedai") they would have never been scattered Faile would not have been captured; Maesma would not have lost most of his men, and a huge chunk of the storyline would be invalid; meaning books 6-12 would have to be rewritten with the new history; now I know some people think Tor are trying to milk the series, bur really rewrite half of it for new release.

 

I don't think Rand would have been using full power through the CK as it would likley attract unwanted attention, plus I think the larger the area BF'ed then the less time back the threads get burnt (for the same power usage).

[tneva82]

Still, though, I think it unlikely that Asmodean has returned, if only because he has no role in the series at this point. Rand's reintegrated; he doesn't need instruction any more. With only two books left, there just isn't room for him.

 

And we do have this little tidbit as well:

 

Secondly, RJ told Yancy Davis at a post-TPOD signing in Northern Virginia that Asmodean is "road kill." "He also used the line, 'He's a cat that tried to cross the tracks and didn't quite make it.' Also, when I said, 'so he won't be back' he responded, 'No, he will not be coming back.'"

 

I prefer to go for simplest route myself ;-) If we have something straight up from RJ then let's use that one :D Assuming of course that entry on WOT FAQ isn't forged.

[roshan]

I believe that the paradox (and what makes it so dangerous) is that while balefire only removes from the pattern THE DIRECT ACTIONS of the one balefired, it leaves the actions of others, including the actions indirectly or secondarily caused by those balefired.  Consider, for example, the Aes Sedai who were holding the shield on Semirhage: they were dead before (presumably killed by Elza) and one was dead and two were unconscious afterwards.   However, Min still had her bruises because they were caused primarily by Rand and secondarily by Semirhage.

 

That's the problem with the Pattern rearranging the threads, how to reconcile primary and secondary causes and effects.

 

As for Graendal's actions, would Ituralde's actions have been primarily or secondarily caused by Graendal?  Based on other descriptions of "balefire reversals" we've seen and the fact that she communicated with him by messenger, I say "secondarily" so the movement of Ituralde's armies, etc. would not have changed.  Regardless of that, Iturade was still the one primarily responsible for the amry's movements and actions, not Graendal.  She only sent the orders; Ituralde carried them out.

 

Others have pointed it out in this thread, but I think it's important to remember that balefire does not undo time, only the [primary] actions of the person balefired.  The actions of others, even when caused by the actions of the one balefired remain.  Then consider the added paradox of actions of people "directed" by the one balefired.  Were the actions voluntary (e.g., Iturade) or forced (e.g., Rand strangling Min)?  Does that make a difference?

 

Hence the dangers of using balefire.

 

[roshan]

1.  Moridin balefires Bela

2.  Mule balefires Moridin

3.  Bela balefires mule

4.  ????

5.  PROFIT!!!

 

4.  Mule balefires itself.  ;)

[Nightstrike]

I believe that the paradox (and what makes it so dangerous) is that while balefire only removes from the pattern THE DIRECT ACTIONS of the one balefired, it leaves the actions of others, including the actions indirectly or secondarily caused by those balefired.

I agree. Even if Nynaeve had BFed Semi with saidar, Min would still have her bruises. Paradoxes unravel the Pattern. That's why BF is considered so dangerous.

 

[coteaz]

Is it possible to balefire yourself?

[Rocky_Outcrop]

Who says that how far back the actions of one burned out is determined by power? What if it is determined by Rand really wanting to help his friends out? Why is it power and not feeling? The amount of anger you have about an event would be linked to power, naturally, but why is it so ... mathematical?

 

 

What I really want to know though is since when has BF stopped moving through objects? Since when ever ever has someone been able to shoot their jacket on the floor and not have a hole in the floor too, and for that matter a hole in the roof of the floor below and then one in floor of that room etc.

 

Does anyone remember being told the dangers of BF? Does anyone else remember them looking and seeing that the rods of light had just kept going?

 

Have I been reading the same book as you guys or has the author of the particular copies I've been reading just gone and ignored outright maybe half the danger of BF?? Semi - got hit - beam stopped. Elza - got hit - beam stopped.

 

SINCE WHEN!!?!??!??!?!?????????!!!!!??!?!?!??!??!!??!??!?!??!

 

That much BF used to kill Gren. means that there is a massive massive hole in the ground after the palace and that this pit will be the biggest absence of dirt that has ever existed no?

 

[tneva82]

I believe that the paradox (and what makes it so dangerous) is that while balefire only removes from the pattern THE DIRECT ACTIONS of the one balefired, it leaves the actions of others, including the actions indirectly or secondarily caused by those balefired.  Consider, for example, the Aes Sedai who were holding the shield on Semirhage: they were dead before (presumably killed by Elza) and one was dead and two were unconscious afterwards.   However, Min still had her bruises because they were caused primarily by Rand and secondarily by Semirhage.

 

Actually I don't think the 2 were killed in a first place. As mentioned the warders would have been alarmed had they been killed. Elza had to take them out of picture WITHOUT killing them least warders spoil the whole thing.

 

Apart from that agreed.