The Black Ajah (spoilers for the entire book)

[Jemlin]

Killing the captured BA was wise on Egwene's part, as she pointed out, that not only were there too many to effectively guard...but stilling was not an end-all punishment anymore, since it can be healed.  Egwene had learned the hard way that the desire for knowledge could cause harm, as in the case of them holding Mogh and not killing her.

I imagine the BA that flee'd will go ahead and start taking their places as Dreadlords.  I can't see how they can do much else, as I am sure the Aes Sedai of the newly whole Tower will spread the names of the list. 

 

I'm still shocked over finding out Sheriam was BA.  Its also kind of creepy that both Amyrilin's had Black Keepers and its a darn good thing that Eguwene was able to set Silviana up as the new Keeper.

[YellowAjahForever]

When I found out that Sheriam was BA, I almolst soiled my pants. I mean, it was obvious that she had dark intention, but I thought it was just one of her schemes. It's really good what happened to them all, they needed it.

 

Verin has been one of my favorite Aes Sedai since we met her. She has always seemed to have been there when she was needed, or when it might be that she would be needed, and her death is just one of those things that someone as awsome as her would do. May you shelter in the embrace of the mother Verin Sedai.

[ajfurst]

Killing the BA was a mistake. Since she was going to kill them anyway she could have addressed two concerns at once. Tightly bind them with oaths of obedience.

 

Then, open a gateway (inverted weaves) near Ebou Dar, with them having being taught the open a'dam trick, with orders to kill every sul'dam they encounter and free every damane they can. And if they are captured they are to stop breathing. Result - freed damane, Seanchan shown they aren't the only ones who can do a raid, BA dead, but after of some use.

[Luckers]

That would be against Tower law.

[ajfurst]

That would be against Tower law.

Tower Law, the Three Oaths, AS history and tradition are what allowed the Seanchan to cause such havoc in the first place.

[Shard]

That would be against Tower law.

Tower Law, the Three Oaths, AS history and tradition are what allowed the Seanchan to cause such havoc in the first place.

 

No, Moridin screwing with Artur Hawkings head and Eliadia's crappy rule is what allowed Seachan to wreak havoc on the Tower.

[Seaine Sedai]

There's one thing I now wonder, now that we know the truth about Verin.  

She was able to "betray" the 13 Black Ajah that the Supergirls were set to chase by Suian way back when, by giving them the info she had on them when she gave Egwene the Dream Ter'Angreal.  But yet <i>she didn't give her Corianin Nedeal's notes</i>...

 

I'm wondering, was there proof in Corianin Nedeals notes..either that Corianin was BA HERSELF OR if she learned how to hunt BA and found proof they existed in T'A'R?

I'm wondering this because when the 13 BA left, they stole a lot of Ter'Angreal that were last studied by Corianin.  With Verin being BA, I wonder if she and CN had a similar "cause" of being ferrets for the light on the dark side?

 

 

 

One way Verin could have been very thorough on researching who was who in the BA would have been using the Dream Ter' Angreal.  Remember CN had erased the records of the thing from the Tower anyway, effectively making it non-existent.

 

 

Man...I'd give a pretty to know what was in those notes, along with what was in all the other notes in Verin's study that day Egwene was raised to Accepted...

 

 

I also wonder if we completely missed the fact that SHERIAM was the one that confirmed for Egwene that the 13 Myrr + 13 BA could turn someone, and that she even confirmed almost nobody knew about that...how the hell did I miss that very vital clue that Sheriam might be BA?

 

I also think it's probably a great position for a BA recruiter to be the MIstress of Novices.  They probably vie for the job because that way they can see who might be impressionable or have a dark side that could be more suitable for recruiting when they become full AS.  Think about it, who knows the Novices as a whole better than the MON?  And who would best be able to go to the BA to keep them watching for certain people they might want to approach at some point and see if they could be brought over?

 

 

Someone earlier in this thread mentioned Sheriam was a leader on the BA council.  I don't remember that EVER being stated in the text, so can someone please tell me where it says that?  The only "leaders" I remember being specifically named on the Supreme Council were Alviarin and Galina.  

[WWWwombat]

There's one thing I now wonder, now that we know the truth about Verin.  

She was able to "betray" the 13 Black Ajah that the Supergirls were set to chase by Suian way back when, by giving them the info she had on them when she gave Egwene the Dream Ter'Angreal.  But yet <i>she didn't give her Corianin Nedeal's notes</i>...

 

I'm wondering, was there proof in Corianin Nedeals notes..either that Corianin was BA HERSELF OR if she learned how to hunt BA and found proof they existed in T'A'R?

I'm wondering this because when the 13 BA left, they stole a lot of Ter'Angreal that were last studied by Corianin.  With Verin being BA, I wonder if she and CN had a similar "cause" of being ferrets for the light on the dark side?

 

 

 

One way Verin could have been very thorough on researching who was who in the BA would have been using the Dream Ter' Angreal.  Remember CN had erased the records of the thing from the Tower anyway, effectively making it non-existent.

 

 

Man...I'd give a pretty to know what was in those notes, along with what was in all the other notes in Verin's study that day Egwene was raised to Accepted...

 

 

I also wonder if we completely missed the fact that SHERIAM was the one that confirmed for Egwene that the 13 Myrr + 13 BA could turn someone, and that she even confirmed almost nobody knew about that...how the hell did I miss that very vital clue that Sheriam might be BA?

 

I also think it's probably a great position for a BA recruiter to be the MIstress of Novices.  They probably vie for the job because that way they can see who might be impressionable or have a dark side that could be more suitable for recruiting when they become full AS.  Think about it, who knows the Novices as a whole better than the MON?  And who would best be able to go to the BA to keep them watching for certain people they might want to approach at some point and see if they could be brought over?

 

 

Someone earlier in this thread mentioned Sheriam was a leader on the BA council.  I don't remember that EVER being stated in the text, so can someone please tell me where it says that?  The only "leaders" I remember being specifically named on the Supreme Council were Alviarin and Galina.  

 

Egwene implies that Sheriam was on the Council when she told Sheriam that Verin named her as a leader among the Black Ajah.

[fikkie77]

BA Mistresses of Novices...

Merean, Duharra, Sheriam, Katerine (though for a very short time)...

 

I had the feeling Corianin Nedeal was black as well. I don't think it's a coincidence that the stolen ter'angreal (by the 12 BA) were researched by her. I wouldn't be surprised if those notes contained evidence for her being BA or showed evidence for Verin bering BA.

 

And yes, Sheriam was the one who confirmed to Egwene about the 13/13 conversion...

[ShadowStalker]

The criticism of Egwene is unjustified. She did what she had to do to unify the Rebels. Suian mentioned that they were becoming as divided as the Tower. The purge was the best method of bringing them together and reestablishing her power. She did not know about the happenings to Elaida. She couldn't assume that she was going to be given the Amyrlin by the Tower.

 

One thing that hasn't been covered yet by this thread is the almost 20 ter'angreals that Sheriam gave to Mesaana. That means that T'A'R could become a very dangerous place for Egwene. The hunted could become the hunters.

[Nimic]

This sounds very similar to what happened to Verin - asking too many questions, getting caught.  Verin maybe assumed that they'd kill her if she refused.  Maybe that's not how the BA works - it might get suspicious for every sister asking too many questions to suddenly turn up dead.

 

By and large' date=' each cell of Darkfriends recruits people it thinks are likely candidates, though they need to do so very carefully, studying them, sounding them out slowly. Darkfriends are always on the lookout for new members, since they feel very much like an oppressed minority and want to increase their numbers. [b']Once a move to recruit is made, though, either it succeeds or the failed candidate dies.[/b]

[frodo1701]

I loved Verin's whole story arc. This is a major blow to the shadow IMO. One question I have though. What has happened to Verin's flower broach angeal? There is no mention of it after she takes it out to travel with Mat. Is it just disposed of with her body or has it been given to someone?

[lillcheese]

This sounds very similar to what happened to Verin - asking too many questions, getting caught.  Verin maybe assumed that they'd kill her if she refused.  Maybe that's not how the BA works - it might get suspicious for every sister asking too many questions to suddenly turn up dead.

 

By and large' date=' each cell of Darkfriends recruits people it thinks are likely candidates, though they need to do so very carefully, studying them, sounding them out slowly. Darkfriends are always on the lookout for new members, since they feel very much like an oppressed minority and want to increase their numbers. [b']Once a move to recruit is made, though, either it succeeds or the failed candidate dies.[/b]

 

Unless there's more context to RJs statement, I don't think it's conclusive regarding BA. I think it would be a bit more difficult to hide murdering an AS as something innocuous.  It's one thing for a random potential DF to be found dead in an alley - you could attribute that to a barfight or a mugging.  It's another thing for a potential BA to show up dead in the halls of the tower or streets of Tar Valon.  

[Durinax]

This sounds very similar to what happened to Verin - asking too many questions, getting caught.  Verin maybe assumed that they'd kill her if she refused.  Maybe that's not how the BA works - it might get suspicious for every sister asking too many questions to suddenly turn up dead.

 

By and large' date=' each cell of Darkfriends recruits people it thinks are likely candidates, though they need to do so very carefully, studying them, sounding them out slowly. Darkfriends are always on the lookout for new members, since they feel very much like an oppressed minority and want to increase their numbers. [b']Once a move to recruit is made, though, either it succeeds or the failed candidate dies.[/b]

 

Unless there's more context to RJs statement, I don't think it's conclusive regarding BA. I think it would be a bit more difficult to hide murdering an AS as something innocuous.  It's one thing for a random potential DF to be found dead in an alley - you could attribute that to a barfight or a mugging.  It's another thing for a potential BA to show up dead in the halls of the tower or streets of Tar Valon. 

The BA is good at making it look natural, remember the vileness following the Aiel war when alot of AS died who knew something about the dragon being rebord, and amyrlin died 'naturally'

[Shard]

This sounds very similar to what happened to Verin - asking too many questions, getting caught.  Verin maybe assumed that they'd kill her if she refused.  Maybe that's not how the BA works - it might get suspicious for every sister asking too many questions to suddenly turn up dead.

 

By and large' date=' each cell of Darkfriends recruits people it thinks are likely candidates, though they need to do so very carefully, studying them, sounding them out slowly. Darkfriends are always on the lookout for new members, since they feel very much like an oppressed minority and want to increase their numbers. [b']Once a move to recruit is made, though, either it succeeds or the failed candidate dies.[/b]

 

Unless there's more context to RJs statement, I don't think it's conclusive regarding BA. I think it would be a bit more difficult to hide murdering an AS as something innocuous.  It's one thing for a random potential DF to be found dead in an alley - you could attribute that to a barfight or a mugging.  It's another thing for a potential BA to show up dead in the halls of the tower or streets of Tar Valon.  

 

The BA had no problems murdering the Amyrlin who witnessed Gitara's declaring the rebirth of the Dragon Reborn. I'm sure the BA are clever enough to find ways to make the death natural enough to be above suspicon of murder. They don't have to leave an AS laying in a random hallway.

[lillcheese]

This sounds very similar to what happened to Verin - asking too many questions, getting caught.  Verin maybe assumed that they'd kill her if she refused.  Maybe that's not how the BA works - it might get suspicious for every sister asking too many questions to suddenly turn up dead.

 

By and large' date=' each cell of Darkfriends recruits people it thinks are likely candidates, though they need to do so very carefully, studying them, sounding them out slowly. Darkfriends are always on the lookout for new members, since they feel very much like an oppressed minority and want to increase their numbers. [b']Once a move to recruit is made, though, either it succeeds or the failed candidate dies.[/b]

 

Unless there's more context to RJs statement, I don't think it's conclusive regarding BA. I think it would be a bit more difficult to hide murdering an AS as something innocuous.  It's one thing for a random potential DF to be found dead in an alley - you could attribute that to a barfight or a mugging.  It's another thing for a potential BA to show up dead in the halls of the tower or streets of Tar Valon.  

 

The BA had no problems murdering the Amyrlin who witnessed Gitara's declaring the rebirth of the Dragon Reborn. I'm sure the BA are clever enough to find ways to make the death natural enough to be above suspicon of murder. They don't have to leave an AS laying in a random hallway.

 

Okay, maybe it's not as difficult as I'd thought.  It did remind me though, the 13/13 trick ONLY works on channelers.  Normal DF recruiting can't include this kind of forced turning so they have to kill if recruitment goes poorly.  The BA has the third option.

[arby64]

Alanna was not on Verin's list. I'm sure Verin checked Alanna, because she spent much time with her. Not being on Verin's list makes it almost certain that Alanna is NOT Black Ajah.

 

Are you sure about this or are you assuming that we would have been told if her name was on the list.

 

Egwene mentions, in her thoughts, the Black Ajah who are with Rand.  It has been a while since I've read the older books, and I don't remember where she is, but I believe Eqwene would consider her "with Rand".

[Durinax]

Alanna was not on Verin's list. I'm sure Verin checked Alanna, because she spent much time with her. Not being on Verin's list makes it almost certain that Alanna is NOT Black Ajah.

 

Are you sure about this or are you assuming that we would have been told if her name was on the list.

 

Egwene mentions, in her thoughts, the Black Ajah who are with Rand.  It has been a while since I've read the older books, and I don't remember where she is, but I believe Eqwene would consider her "with Rand".

doesnt caddy always keep alanna close to her so she has a tie to rand?

[Tyrell]

Do we think Verin took part in the torture and murder of Tamra Ospenya?

[Ilyena]

Alanna is in Tear. Rand sees her there in this last book and she feels pity for him (which I suspect is over his lack of emotion after Semi). I really hope she isn't BA as that'll be another bad kick in the stomach for the light.

Verin probably left the flower with someone she felt was able to protect it. Let's not forget she was going to visit alot more people besides Mat (who noticed the other letters in her bag). She also talked about making sure things were going to fall into place even if she had to die with in the tower, leading me to believe she left CN's notes with someone (if they were supremely important anyways).

[Vorkia]

This sounds very similar to what happened to Verin - asking too many questions, getting caught.  Verin maybe assumed that they'd kill her if she refused.  Maybe that's not how the BA works - it might get suspicious for every sister asking too many questions to suddenly turn up dead.

 

By and large' date=' each cell of Darkfriends recruits people it thinks are likely candidates, though they need to do so very carefully, studying them, sounding them out slowly. Darkfriends are always on the lookout for new members, since they feel very much like an oppressed minority and want to increase their numbers. [b']Once a move to recruit is made, though, either it succeeds or the failed candidate dies.[/b]

 

Unless there's more context to RJs statement, I don't think it's conclusive regarding BA. I think it would be a bit more difficult to hide murdering an AS as something innocuous.  It's one thing for a random potential DF to be found dead in an alley - you could attribute that to a barfight or a mugging.  It's another thing for a potential BA to show up dead in the halls of the tower or streets of Tar Valon. 

 

An important fact to remember is the the last 4 or 5 MON's were BA- a prime spot to be on the look out for possible candidates.  Hmmm... I wonder how many unrecovered "runaways" were actually BA recruitments gone awry?

[Luckers]

What has happened to Verin's flower broach angeal? There is no mention of it after she takes it out to travel with Mat. Is it just disposed of with her body or has it been given to someone?

 

If Mat told her about Moiraine she might have left it for her. *shrug*

[TheBB]

Question: why did Verin choose that particular moment to spill her guts? My guess, unless I missed a salient detail: she'd been ordered to kill Egwene, so couldn't put it off any longer .

 

She was stuck for a few books waiting for Mat to arrive, remember? I'm guessing the trip she badly wanted to make might've been this one.

[ed2funy]

If I was Egwene, I would implement a law that all Sisters had to forswear all oaths and reswear the 3 Oaths every year and make the statements that they are not Darkfrinds.

 

That would be the end of the Black Ajah.

 

OMG!!! I was gonna post this exactly after reading the whole topic....

crazy...

 

and burn me, it would work!!!!

[benr]

Question: why did Verin choose that particular moment to spill her guts? My guess, unless I missed a salient detail: she'd been ordered to kill Egwene, so couldn't put it off any longer .

 

She was stuck for a few books waiting for Mat to arrive, remember? I'm guessing the trip she badly wanted to make might've been this one.

 

I doubt that Verin actually spent the whole time trying to find Mat, or being pulled in his direction and unable to open gateways.  After having her confirmed as a mamber of the BA, I figured that was all hooey to get Mat to do what she wanted (go to Caemlyn, read her letter).