White Tower Reunification Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[Ashamandragoran]

The Red Ajah deals with men who channel. The only new change is how they deal with them, but dealing with men who can channel is still their mission.

[Whitering]

Yes, it was Elaida's great failing, and likely would have led to her removal as Amyrlin, that she blindly disregarded Egwene's warning of the event to the full extent of not even planning for any kind of assault against the White Tower. This is incredibly stupid because there is a rebel invasion force, not to mention a Black Tower that she has cause to believe is pissed off with her that may invade, never mind the Seanchan.

 

Of course, most of the Sisters at the Tower were aware of Egwene's warning and didn't lay wards or anything to help themselves either.

 

The damane are trained for battle. We don't get a great look at Seanchan but there is plenty of evidence that feuding between nobles and outright war at the deaths of their imperial monarchs is common. Only Aes Sedai spending a significant amount of time in the borderlands would have any training or battle conditioning to the same degree.

 

I can blame the sisters for their lack of preparation but not their performance against the battle hardened Seanchan.

[Lambada]

I'll have to disagree there Whitering.

The problem was the Three Oaths. The Aes Sedai even if they had been prepared could not have done anything unless they thought the Seanchan were Shadowspawn (which they did not), or felt their lives were in danger - which as soon as they realised they were 'only' being collared would have nullified that excuse. There might possibly be an argument in saying that their Warders were in mortal danger, but seeing as most Warders were separated from their Aes Sedai, I think that would have been irrelevant as a factor.

That is why the one Aes Sedai we do see during the battle (The Green Ajah who bumps into Egwene) was forced into running from them rather than fighting them.

[lillcheese]

I'll have to disagree there Whitering.

The problem was the Three Oaths. The Aes Sedai even if they had been prepared could not have done anything unless they thought the Seanchan were Shadowspawn (which they did not), or felt their lives were in danger - which as soon as they realised they were 'only' being collared would have nullified that excuse. There might possibly be an argument in saying that their Warders were in mortal danger, but seeing as most Warders were separated from their Aes Sedai, I think that would have been irrelevant as a factor.

That is why the one Aes Sedai we do see during the battle (The Green Ajah who bumps into Egwene) was forced into running from them rather than fighting them.

 

One instance when Egwene's PTSD can be useful.  I doubt that she'd ever feel that her life was NOT in danger from an a'dam. 

 

They really need to tweak that oath a tad.

[Whitering]

Wow, I did not get the sense that any of the Aes Sedai we saw during the attack, including the green you mentioned felt they were limited by the oaths in any way. Not a single one of them felt that their lives were not in danger. I forget how many sisters died there, but it was quite obvious that they were not just fighting to avoid being collared.

[Thorn]

I'll have to disagree there Whitering.

The problem was the Three Oaths. The Aes Sedai even if they had been prepared could not have done anything unless they thought the Seanchan were Shadowspawn (which they did not), or felt their lives were in danger - which as soon as they realised they were 'only' being collared would have nullified that excuse. There might possibly be an argument in saying that their Warders were in mortal danger, but seeing as most Warders were separated from their Aes Sedai, I think that would have been irrelevant as a factor.

That is why the one Aes Sedai we do see during the battle (The Green Ajah who bumps into Egwene) was forced into running from them rather than fighting them.

 

Yeah, I was wondering about this. I think they could have rationalized it though -- it was a battle, they themselves or other sisters or warders were threatened, etc.

 

I think the Green Ajah Aes Sedai was running because she was outnumbered.

[Charred Knight]

Yes, it was Elaida's great failing, and likely would have led to her removal as Amyrlin, that she blindly disregarded Egwene's warning of the event to the full extent of not even planning for any kind of assault against the White Tower. This is incredibly stupid because there is a rebel invasion force, not to mention a Black Tower that she has cause to believe is pissed off with her that may invade, never mind the Seanchan.

 

Of course, most of the Sisters at the Tower were aware of Egwene's warning and didn't lay wards or anything to help themselves either.

 

The damane are trained for battle. We don't get a great look at Seanchan but there is plenty of evidence that feuding between nobles and outright war at the deaths of their imperial monarchs is common. Only Aes Sedai spending a significant amount of time in the borderlands would have any training or battle conditioning to the same degree.

 

I can blame the sisters for their lack of preparation but not their performance against the battle hardened Seanchan.

 

and it's the sisters fault for leaving Elaida in so long.  Mazrim Taim is working for the shadow and he has done less damage, and more work for the light.  If the Aes Sedai are so incompetent that they can't handle a little raid what makes you think they can handle Tarmon Gai'don.

 

Robert Jordan spent way to much time hyping up Egwene to the detriment of the entire Tower.  Theirs no real equivalent to Talmanes, or Logain, and that's a real problem.

[b3arz3rg3r]

The Red Ajah deals with men who channel. The only new change is how they deal with them, but dealing with men who can channel is still their mission.

 

Really just try to think about it from the other direction. There is no way in hell the men are going to accept the Red. That is the problem.

[WWWwombat]

The Red Ajah deals with men who channel. The only new change is how they deal with them, but dealing with men who can channel is still their mission.

 

Really just try to think about it from the other direction. There is no way in hell the men are going to accept the Red. That is the problem.

 

Reds have sworn fealty to Rand and Asha'man have bonded Reds and the male channelers are distrustful of all Aes Sedai, not just Reds, so I don't think a reconciliation is impossible.

[benr]

In a thousand years the Red Ajah will be known and revered for their hunt of the Black Ajah (including both male and female).  It will be a shock to those alive at the time that they once just hunted male channelers.

[ajfurst]

I'll have to disagree there Whitering.

The problem was the Three Oaths. That is why the one Aes Sedai we do see during the battle (The Green Ajah who bumps into Egwene) was forced into running from them rather than fighting them.

Only partly I think. Egwene deserves some of the blame. For all the 'Wooohoo, Egwene, you rocked!', even given her circumstances there was PLENTY that could have been done, that was easy to do.

 

As soon as she became Amyrlin in fact to the rebels (after the Law of War), even before her dream of the Seanchan she should have instructed every rebel AS, Accepted and Novice with how to open an a'dam. It's a tiny amount of power.

And once she was captured by Elaida's mob, she should have said something along the lines of 'I know you don't believe my dream, but just in case, here's a really easy weave that will save your arse' - except more diplomatically. And definitely have taught it to the hero worshiping novices. At the very least she could have instructed the BA hunters and the rebel spies with it.

 

With the most rudimentary of plans that in an attack, as soon as you see any other AS, accepted or novice show them the weave before moving on. If this bleedingly obvious tactic had been done, the raid would, IMO, have gone very differently with the Seanchan having damane uncollared as fast, or faster then they could take AS, as soon as they hit a group of 2 or 3.

 

Not too mention, even though the rebels didn't believe her dream of the Seanchan attacking the Tower, she could still have left clear instructions once captured, that if it did occur they were to get the army and AS to help defend the Tower ASAP. We saw how Siuan, Bryne and Gawyn had plenty of time to get their whilst the raid was still going on. A larger reaction force of one to two thousand with the first 20 - 30 AS gathered up could have made it there without Travelling (if they wanted to avoid giving that away), when it was all still up for grabs. Or more realistically with any forethought by Egwene sharing the information with Bryne via Siuan set up for if the Seanchan attacked to gate the AS and soldiers into the basement through open gateways, with linked circles. Within minutes the first circles and hundreds of troops would have been pouring out to save the WT AS's bacon.

 

I enjoyed the chapters and during the battle Egwene did a stellar job with what she had on hand, but she could have had it that the Seanchan would have been lucky to escape with any of their forces alive.

[Mr Ares]

As soon as she became Amyrlin in fact to the rebels (after the Law of War), even before her dream of the Seanchan she should have instructed every rebel AS, Accepted and Novice with how to open an a'dam. It's a tiny amount of power.

But not a specific "open a'dam" weave. You need to show them how to open it, and for that you need an a'dam. The Tower doesn't. And telling them doesn't mean they'll listen. If they don't pay attention to how to open it - including where to place the weave - then they won't know how to open it.

 

A larger reaction force of one to two thousand with the first 20 - 30 AS gathered up could have made it there without Travelling

Siuan and co. got in because they were a small group. A large group would have had to have gone through the gates or over the walls, or Travelled. And surely it's Gareth's job to come up with such plans (at least the specifics)? And sending in more AS just puts more AS in the firing line. More potential damane, greater risk of the Seanchan getting Travelling, and so on. And it's not like there was a long time between Egwene's Dream and her capture.

[Thorn]

In a thousand years the Red Ajah will be known and revered for their hunt of the Black Ajah (including both male and female).  It will be a shock to those alive at the time that they once just hunted male channelers.

 

My guess is that Reds start working to free captured damane.

[b3arz3rg3r]

The Red Ajah deals with men who channel. The only new change is how they deal with them, but dealing with men who can channel is still their mission.

 

Really just try to think about it from the other direction. There is no way in hell the men are going to accept the Red. That is the problem.

 

Reds have sworn fealty to Rand and Asha'man have bonded Reds and the male channelers are distrustful of all Aes Sedai, not just Reds, so I don't think a reconciliation is impossible.

 

That's hardly a good example. The Asha'man bonded those Reds against their wishes and them swearing fealty was ta'veren work.

 

In a thousand years the Red Ajah will be known and revered for their hunt of the Black Ajah (including both male and female).  It will be a shock to those alive at the time that they once just hunted male channelers.

 

Really? I think in a thousand years that handful of red sisters will have been forgotten. They didn't really accomplish anything. In a thousand years people will know of Egwene, Moiraine, Elaida, Elayne, Siuan and Cadsuane, all others will be forgotten.

[Whitering]

Ahem, Nynaeve...

 

Also, I don't think he meant individual Red Ajah sisters, but rather the purpose and goals of the Red Ajah as a whole. As the greens are noted for battle (though, maybe not after their performance against the Seanchan) and each ajah has their purpose.

 

The Reds were known for taking down ANY man who could channel. Now, likely just evil ones, along with evil women perhaps.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Yes, policing channellers would be a proper new goal for the women in the Red Ajah, but merely changing their creed wouldn't be enough in my opinion. There would have to be some drastic restructuring, like opening the ajah to men, before it would work.

[Seven of Nine]

Exactly, "The Dragon can't go on without guidance."

 

Too bad that I don't want you to guide him, Egwene.

Yes!

 

Lillcheese said:

Second, Egwene gained some understanding of how he's been treated and, hopefully, will be more open with him in the future.  I think Rand would have been far more willing to listen to her & others if they'd just been upfront.

I think Egwene is wrong here. Min is right that Rand doesn't need guidance now; he needs help. He's the one in charge, and the sooner these other players realize that the better. The last thing Egwene needs to do is to try coming at Rand like a younger Cadsuane.

 

Mr. Micawber said:

I have a feeling that Rand will go back to Cadsuane and beg for forgiveness while flagellating himself with a rubber chicken in front of the assembled nobility of the entire Westlands and all the Wise Ones and Clan Chiefs before *ever* allowing himself to be guided by the Oooh! Girl to end all Oooh! Girls.

And then Cadsuane wakes up.

 

Majsju said:

When we see EWgwene go into valkyrie-mode, she forbids the novices to attack the Seanchan, and she also tells Adelorna she will have a novice show her how to remove the a'dam. That would not be possible if the novices had been in a circle with her, as only the one leading the circle can channel anything at all.

Unless there were more novices than Egwene could use in one circle. I got the impression that she kept that circle going.

 

As Alderona was thinking, the Green "battle" ajah was really disappointing in that battle

Except that their new Amyrlin was trained by the Seanchan.

 

Especially among all of the overage ones Egwene is going to put on the books.  Especially since none of the Novices or Accepted are required to take any oaths.

 

She thinks the Tower is largely safe from internal rot.  She is so wrong.

Perhaps the first question an new AS will be asked after taking the oaths will be if she is a darkfriend. Could be a little bit too late, or perhaps they will think this and put everyone under oath to tell the truth. Sure a hole this large in their system will be seen by someone.

 

P. 631 - Later, when Adelorna Bastine sees her, she is stunned by how much power Egwene has. "A woman in white stood atop the rubble a short distance away a massive halo of power surrounding her, her arm outstretched toward the fleeing soldiers, her eyes intense.  The woman stood like vengeance itself, the power of saidar like a storm around her.  The very air seemed alight.. [cont]"

Gives me chills again reading that. I knew there was a reason besides Gawyn why Egwene would have been a Green if she'd chosen an Adjah.

 

She,like any other Aes Sedai, think that Rand has to be controlled.

Which is why Min's observation that Rand, rather than being guided, just needs help. Does Egwene have enough respect for Min's insight to listen to her?

 

Am I alone in thinking that Rand doesn't really need all that much guidance?

Nope. But he does need input from his staff. He needs for them to bring their varied experiences to come together and add that to LTT's experience. Those memories are now a good thing. Since LTT is gone, I hope that LTT's memory of what he did to the bore isn't also gone. Egwene has proved to be very insightful. Let's hope she can be wise enough not to try putting Rand into a "box" like Cadsuane.

 

My guess is that Reds start working to free captured damane.

I like this suggestion!

[csarmi]

Am I the only one to think that after her (involuntary) escape, Egwene was being stupid? Not to mention before that (someone mentioned she should have told the rebels what to do if Seanchan came, for example enter with formed circles and pawn them).

 

1) Attitude towards Siuan and co. They HAD to enter and bring her out accrding to the information they got.

 

2) I can't go back BS. Well, that may be true, but why not send emissaries via travelling, gets information or whatever (of what's going on). She almost attacks the tower...

[Tam of the Two Rivers]

I think this book was supposed to be more about rand's fractured persona, and his descent into deppression, but IMO egwene stole the show.  My fave scene of the book was egwene serving the elaida and the sitters, and giving elaida an absolute word pimp slap, from then on she just kept getting increasingly badass, culminating in her acting as a coduit for an insane amount of power, and turning the tide of the seanchan battle alone.

 

I think she, like elayne after KoD, has pretty much tied up her plotlines for this story, for the next book I see her finding rand on the base of dragonmount, taking him in, giving him a piece of her wrath, then returning him to cads and nyanaeve when they come alooking.  After tat it's a matter of integrating Bryne's army with the tower guards, (which would be a force of approx 100k), and peparing to march for the blight.  My personal belief is that she takes her army and the majority of her channelers to Tarwin's Gap, giving the light the two pronged attack Rand wants, whilst not abondoning Lan to death in the gap, (plus it would be nice for Lan to have the aes sedai finally come and help him defend malkier, i'm sure he still resents their failure at malkier's fault).

 

Egwene's parts were some of my favorites.  When the the Seachean attacked and Eg became all super powered,I had to put the book down and take some breaths.  Really, really good writing.  Love this idea of Aes coming to Tarwin and lan's aid as a fix for the tower's falling to come to malkier's aid.  Nice little plot. LOM

[Tam of the Two Rivers]

First time we see the sa'angreal used, Nynaeve makes a commment that she could herself wield almost half of what a circle with ten Aes Sedai and that sa'angreal could. And that should be before she has reached her full potential. So while it is the strongest sa'angreal the WT has, it is not superstrong.

 

Egwene being as weakened as she is, it is possible that she could not channel much more than a full circle could. Of course, she is in a place where there should not be enough sisters to form a full circle, but...

 

And about the novices, I got the impression that Egwene let go of the circle once she got the sa'angreal, as she did not really need their help anymore. She needed them to Travel to the storeage room, after that it would have made sense to let the novices form circles among them and help out that way. Which we see them do.

 

I do believe that it stated that Eg was standing on the edge with the novices she was linked with behind her in another room.  She was kicking ass here.

[mastrtonberry]

So when Egwene was decimating the Seanchan I thought of the song, Counting Bodies Like Sheep to the Rhythm of the War Drums, by Perfect Circle.

[aeshma]

Seems like the reunification is just the start of the troubles. There's the immediate threat of the blood knives.  Keeping the blacks from sneaking back into the tower for damage. Mesaana is still lurking around. It will be interesting to see if the Seanchan see the raid as a success and would want to strike again though this time with gateways. Then there's that dream of a Seanchan with a sword helping Egwene. First people to figure out anti gateway wards will have the new edge. 

[Jemlin]

Am I the only one to think that after her (involuntary) escape, Egwene was being stupid? Not to mention before that (someone mentioned she should have told the rebels what to do if Seanchan came, for example enter with formed circles and pawn them).

 

1) Attitude towards Siuan and co. They HAD to enter and bring her out accrding to the information they got.

 

2) I can't go back BS. Well, that may be true, but why not send emissaries via travelling, gets information or whatever (of what's going on). She almost attacks the tower...

 

As far as Egwene's POV goes, she wasn't being stupid, as she had zero assumption that the Heads of the Ajahs would decide for her to be Amyrilin.  She had assumed that her only hope was to remain behind, fresh from her victory in fighting the Seanchan, to be able to continue shaking up the Tower Aes Sedai.

 

Where-as, we have the POV to be able to see that her being rescued was probably a good thing in the end...she doesn't.

[Eleint]

I have to say, I actually really liked the Egwene plotline, and I often can't stand it.  There were hints that she was actually starting to empathize with Rand, at least in part.  There were also times when I wanted to shake her and tell her to get ahold of her ego, but that's pretty typical with Egwene.  She actually kicked major butt in this one, in ways I like.

 

I did -not- like the whole 'how dare he let them bond Aes Sedai!'  I really hope that's the 'he shall know her anger' thing, and he points out the fallacy here: would you preferred they kill them?  I mean, come on.  I don't like the added compulsion, but that's the only way they know how to bond apparently, unless they want a marriage bond thing instead.  Logain isn't letting his men abuse the AS, so...yeah, it's not good, but it's not worse than killing them off in self defense.

 

Basically, I think Egwene needs, as others have said, to realize that they cannot control and order Rand around.  The WT and Egwene need a major dose of humility, just as Rand's gotten it in the past books.  At least he had the reason that he was the center of everything and was tainted.  They don't have that excuse, it's ego and ambition.

 

I'm hopeful she will do so.  There are hints that this is happening.

[Durinax]

I have to say, I actually really liked the Egwene plotline, and I often can't stand it.  There were hints that she was actually starting to empathize with Rand, at least in part.  There were also times when I wanted to shake her and tell her to get ahold of her ego, but that's pretty typical with Egwene.  She actually kicked major butt in this one, in ways I like.

 

I did -not- like the whole 'how dare he let them bond Aes Sedai!'  I really hope that's the 'he shall know her anger' thing, and he points out the fallacy here: would you preferred they kill them?  I mean, come on.  I don't like the added compulsion, but that's the only way they know how to bond apparently, unless they want a marriage bond thing instead.  Logain isn't letting his men abuse the AS, so...yeah, it's not good, but it's not worse than killing them off in self defense.

 

Basically, I think Egwene needs, as others have said, to realize that they cannot control and order Rand around.  The WT and Egwene need a major dose of humility, just as Rand's gotten it in the past books.  At least he had the reason that he was the center of everything and was tainted.  They don't have that excuse, it's ego and ambition.

 

I'm hopeful she will do so.  There are hints that this is happening.

I have the feeling that the know the anger bit is gonna be about the alliance between rand and the seanchan, with egwene getting pissed because of how recent the attack was