Rand's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[aunt_pol]

 

Really interesting, there, but I can't really go with it. I know he's a tosser, and a usually enraged one at that, but Gawyn did promise Eggy he wouldn't act against Rand. He cut it fairly fine at Dumai's Wells, true, but I think he might keep it. Of course you could argue he's not much on keeping his First Prince of the Sword obligations to Elayne.

 

The whole does hang together fairly well really, though, with one HUUUGE exception... Tigraine's body??? 20 odd years later? A) I don't think she'd have climbed THAT far up the mountain. B) Who'd have woven a Keeping/ bothered burying her, specifically, in mid battle with corpses all over the shop?

I do grant you he'll look for evidence of her. Don't buy him finding it.

 

Damn, Janduin could've buried her. Sorry!

[randfandom]

Really interesting, there, but I can't really go with it. I know he's a tosser, and a usually enraged one at that, but Gawyn did promise Eggy he wouldn't act against Rand.

Yeah well, Gawyn also promised Bryne and Elayne to always be there for her and put Elayne and Andor above any obligations. He turned against his former teachers and killed them. He commits himself to Elaida's cause, then lets Suian go free and later abandons his cause and his men as soon as he hears Egwene was captured. We see him betraying his sister's cause by giving confidential information about her policies and actions when he talks to Lelaine.

 

In tGS he thinks to himself that he will protect Elayne and Egwene but that if that does not work out, he'll save Andor and the world by killing Al Thor. He no longer considers his old oath to Egwene.

 

From the looks of his interaction with Egwene after she was freed, it is clear that this relationship is no longer working as he had hoped. I don't see him becoming Egwene's loyal and obedient warder and he does not have Lan's maturity when he bonded to Moiraine, to do what's right (anyhow, if we take Bryne's word, he should never become a warder since it violates the Prince of the Sword oath). That, and the fact that he is not near Egwene at the end of the book make me believe he in crisis and we know that he consistently makes hotheaded irrational decisions in that case.

 

The whole does hang together fairly well really, though, with one HUUUGE exception... Tigraine's body??? 20 odd years later? A) I don't think she'd have climbed THAT far up the mountain. B) Who'd have woven a Keeping/ bothered burying her, specifically, in mid battle with corpses all over the shop?

I do grant you he'll look for evidence of her. Don't buy him finding it.

 

Damn, Janduin could've buried her. Sorry!

Clearly she did not climb to the top. I had been thinking that Rand may have climbed down to where she had died. It can't be too far from the bottom, since a 9 months pregnant woman in labor pains could not have climbed too far, but clearly it was an abandoned spot, so only her remains will be there.

I agree that her body was not preserved (except perhaps some bones), but some artifacts might have remained near her body, such as a pendant bearing her sigil or Galad's picture as a child.

Janduin would not have buried her as he had no clue where she had gone and the Aiel had withdrawn from Tar Valon by then.

 

Anyway, maybe Tigraine's remains will not be involved, but I have a feeling that Rand and Gawyn will soon have a fatal confrontation, and Dragonmount is a good location since both are right there.

[yoniy0]

That's a nice story, but I'll be surprised if all goes down that way. For one thing, the "Twice dawns the day" thingy if far too mysterious to be fulfilled simply by two days in which he almost dies, for my taste (and of course there have already been much more than two times he almost died).

 

Never mind. The thing I wanted to say was:

Min, Aviendha and Elayne will of course show up soon after. They will want to take Rand to the Tower for Healing, but will not be able to Travel there since they don't know the area and can't wait.

 

This little bit can't go as described. Remember traveling to a spot teaches you that spot well enough to travel from it.

[Sharaman]

"Twice dawns the day" must be an eclipse.

 

[aunt_pol]

 

 

Good thinking, Sharaman, an eclipse fits the bill sweetly alright.

 

Randfandom, I doff my cap: you very succinctly delineated why Gawyn is indeed a tosser. I still can't quite ... accept this as a poss happening, but I certainly can't find great reasons why not. Also, it has a subtle Arthur & Mordred quality, being attacked by the ones you should be close to.

[randfandom]

That's a nice story, but I'll be surprised if all goes down that way. For one thing, the "Twice dawns the day" thingy if far too mysterious to be fulfilled simply by two days in which he almost dies, for my taste (and of course there have already been much more than two times he almost died).

 

I am sure that the final plot will differ - in some ways I'd be disappointed if RJ does not come up with a better story line! :-)

 

Prophecies can sometimes be fulfilled in a fairly mundane way. See the beggar staff viewing for instance, or the prophecy about the "unstained Tower kneels to the forgotten sign" which involved just 9 Aes Sedai kneeling. Having "Twice dawns the day" mean two different days is just as likely as having an eclipse as some suggest (an eclipse does not equal "dawn") or have time unravel or any such thing.

There certainly have been many times where Rand nearly died, but when was his blood "shed"? Also, he never before go into clinical death (loss of heartbeat), which I think is the most likely interpretation for "he who is dead yet lives".

 

Min, Aviendha and Elayne will of course show up soon after. They will want to take Rand to the Tower for Healing, but will not be able to Travel there since they don't know the area and can't wait.

This little bit can't go as described. Remember traveling to a spot teaches you that spot well enough to travel from it.

 

Yup, but do they know it? We learn about this trick for the first time in tGS, and Nynaeve is just as surprised by it as we are. Up till then we always see channelers waiting in place to learn the surroundings (see Verin's story). They may also suffer the same problem as Verin had - changes in the local scenery (e.g. arrival of others, for instance Perrin) will make the memorization mute.

 

[yoniy0]

Yup, but do they know it? We learn about this trick for the first time in tGS, and Nynaeve is just as surprised by it as we are. Up till then we always see channelers waiting in place to learn the surroundings (see Verin's story). They may also suffer the same problem as Verin had - changes in the local scenery (e.g. arrival of others, for instance Perrin) will make the memorization mute.

 

Oh, sure they do. Nynaeve was surprised by how simple it is to USE that fact by first traveling to a spot close by (as is possible even without familiarity with your surroundings) in order to facilitate subsequent travelings. Remember she herself used this trick when taking Lan to the Borderlands (she only has a brief moment after deciding to take him to find a map in the library so she had a good place in mind, not enough to go there and learn the spot before she took Lan there).

I believe Elayne also mentioned something to that effect, when traveling to meet with the Borderlands' rulers (on the way back I believe she returned to the same spot she first traveled to).

 

Edit: regarding Aviendha, I'm not sure. Remember when she chauffeured Elayne around the countryside back in CoT? Did we see her making her Gateway in the same spot she traveled to the night before?

[ed2funy]

They are memorizing the lands, not the people there.

Arrival of others won't change it. just the land, I believe.

 

Also, yeah, we knew it was easier to travel to a point you already had made a gateway, coming or going.

 

It is just the AS that didn't put two and two together.

[yoniy0]

Oh, and regarding this:

There certainly have been many times where Rand nearly died, but when was his blood "shed"? Also, he never before go into clinical death (loss of heartbeat), which I think is the most likely interpretation for "he who is dead yet lives".

 

I'm sure Ishamael did some blood-shedding back at Falme. I'm not sure, but what Padan Fain did also might count. As far as clinical death goes, I don't see Randlanders acknowledging that term. If someone is alive according to a Delving, he's alive. If not, he's dead, and nothing you can do with the Power will bring him back.

[Sentinel78]

"Shed" can mean to spill out.  In the context of Rand shedding his blood, that's certainly the obvious interpretation of the word.  Another common meaning for this word is "get rid of" (enter 'define: shed' into google).  Rand 'ridding' himself of his 'blood' could be a body swap with Moridin, who he is already merging with.  Rand dies, his consciousness takes over Moridin's body (who is possibly not as strongly 'attached' to his body due to his transmigration). He would have different DNA at that point; different blood.  Rand's blood would be essential to victory because he would need to die to lull the DO into thinking he'd won to get the opportunity he needs.

 

Then Min's vision with Aviendha having Rand's children and that they were healthy but still something was somehow 'odd' about them makes sense, because they wouldn't be Rand's biological children.

 

"To live you must die" makes sense, because for some reason Rand won't be able to win TG in his body, perhaps because he'll fool the DO into letting down his guard and letting Rand as Moridin walk right into the Pit of Doom and shove Callandor up his a$$.

 

Not sure about Alivia helping Rand die, as I don't see how she could facilitate that transference.

 

Moridin already conveniently resembles Rand, and Moridin's body is not a wreck like Rand's - i.e., poetic justice.

 

Unlikely, but possible. 

[THE IMMORTAL]

Sorry, I’m new to these to these boards, so I just wanted to put a few things down.

So saying that I got to say that veins of gold has to be the best chapter of the whole entire book, simply being that it sounded like something that Robert Jordan himself would have wrote, the greatness of the soul that is the dragon came out in leaps and bounds, one can easily see  in that moment the great man lews therin “ASIDE FROM HIS KNOWLEDGE AND ACOMPLISHMENTS” was and why he was called the great leader.

I have read a lot about how this and that was great in the book, but to one who read the books and knows everthing by heart, the gathering storm was full of holes, first thing sanderson does not understand the one power, he is doing mundane things with the powers, rand saying that he is drawing a little extra so that the senchan damane can’t cut him off, the senchan can’t link and he is the strongest channeler and it would take a forsaken or a full circle to cut him off, cydane say that with the choedan cal that the power coming through the female half  is enough to melt continents, cadsuene says that nynaeve is drawing more power that every sister, with every sa angrael and angrael can chanel, and we know that nynaeve is no where near as strong as rand, the seanch damena shields were supposed to rebound, he was not supposed to be resilient, think back to verin and Alana trying to cut him off. But thinks he might have problems with a hundred damane, pls  they would be like flies.

Sanderson second mistake, rand has lews therins knowledge, the same man that created death gates, arrows of fire, blossoms of fire, remember only ishmahael equaled lews therin in the one power, and know one equaled  lews therin in knowledge of the power , he was the greatest person of his age because of his accomplishments, in an age of great men and great accomplishments, but that seems to have been forgotten, all rand can do now is rain fire or lightening to strike and bite, what happened to all that knowledge, rand was supposed to be able to draw now.

Mins betrayal and it is betrayal, giving all her viewings to cadsuene to better manipulate, did she not say her viewings were for rand only, so much for her love!!!!

Nynaeve telling rand how to plan a war, great gods these aes sedai  know everything and yet nothing. When did nynaeve learn war but still talk crap, rand plans made sense although cruel.

Rand killing grandal brilliant, but nynaeve and min being uppity about it, samirage  the greatest healer of the age of legends says that compulsion cannot be healed.

There was so many things wrong that I can go on and on, that frightened me as to what sanderson will write in the next book, maybe everybody should have honoured Robert jordans memory and left the book unfinished, because I see that now rand will be nothing but a puppet to cadsuene , toun and the rest of the women of randland, sad that Robert Jordan did not live to finish the book himself, I think he would have written rand as the great lews therin.

I’ve got a feeling that as of veins of gold, that rand should have atleast all of lews therins knowledge,memories and skils, if not all his previous lives as that chapter indicated, but come towers of midnight I got a feeling that sanderson will chicken out and rand will just be plain old rand all that knowledge will disappear, what a disappoint that will be!!!!

And the aes sedai are just as stupid as ever, I’m really starting to loathe egwene. 

 

Everbody wants the the whole, transference thing, that would be the worst ending ever, rand in moridins body, with a chin like a hammer, that would really suck, avindha having some strangers baby!!!!!

[dflinn]

Sorry man, but I think you are just looking for things to find wrong. Too much of what you are saying is wrong but I will point on those that jump. Semi said compulsion cant be healed, it was also common knowledge that severing couldnt be healed. So just because Semi said it doesnt make it 100% fact. It might be fact, but we cant say that for sure based on what Semi said.

When did Nyneave try to tell him how to plan for war? Ive read it 3 or 4 times now and for the life of me I cant remember her trying to tell Rand how to plan a war. Of course she is concerned about her HUSBAND and would really like Rand to swoop in and save the day and her HUSBAND. But trying to plan a war? Thats a complete and utter exageration.

As far as going back to basic tricks, yes I guess he did go back to basic tricks such as BALEFIRE. And if you think lightning is a simple trick then explain the lightning in the stone of tear in book 4. Something that would have seemed impossible to Aes Sedai.

And I am not sure if I even understand your first point about the shields. Hrm, I have a super duper make me most powerful man in the world angreal and I have suspicions that the Seanchan may try to pull some mess so I draw a little extra through my super duper angreal to make sure I am completely prepared and not gonna get my OTHER hand ripped away.

 

Dont get me wrong, there are things that rubbed me the wrong way, 99% of that was in the Mat chapters for me. But I have to say the points you bring up can easily be disputed.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

Twice dawns the day

 

If someone gives a speech at some point starting with "this is a new dawn" or words to that effect it could just about cut it for prophesy. These riddles always seem to operate in grey areas. An eclipse is pretty dramatic and always nice to have something dramatic but a little ditty by Egwene or someone stating that today sees the dawn of a new era could be the answer... Would be a shame, bit of an anticlimax.

[THE IMMORTAL]

sorry my friend there arealot of things wrong and not easily disputed.

 

I'm not here to fight, but i don't put blinders over my eyes or molly coddle people i tell the truth and the truth hurts.

 

"WINTERS HEART with the choedan kal, page 641- south of her, that beacon shone, eneugh saider to waste to a continent in one blow." sanderson forgot to read this he would have rand taking the choedan kal and sneaking around killing small groups of seanchan and running away to strike again.

 

"WINTERS HEART with the choedan kal, page 651 - except that she was acting as conduit for far more of saider than the entire white tower could have handled using every angreal and sa angrael the tower possessed."

 

"CROSSROADS OF TWILIGHT surprises, page 468 - the resonance was so strong, we should have been able to smell it. there was more saidin used than saider, much more, dragonmountbeside a foothill." so if the amont of saider used was enough to melt continents,how much powerful is the choedan kal with rands strenght.

 

"THE GATHERING STORM scents unknown  pages 684 to 686 - we have to attack there,nynaeve said, ituraldesays that the blight is swarming with trollocs.the dark one is gathering his forces. you can bet that the bulk of them will be at the gap, where it'd easiestto get through and strike at andor and cairhien."

 

"she had to come with a new strategy to influence rand"

 

 

 

My friend i read alot of books, lots of different genre's like horror, science fiction, action, adventure etc, from people like stephen king, raymond e feist, fayod dayostivsky,and so one so i know quite abit about novels and i know the wheel of time inside out

[Sentinel78]

Sorry man, but I think you are just looking for things to find wrong. Too much of what you are saying is wrong but I will point on those that jump. Semi said compulsion cant be healed, it was also common knowledge that severing couldnt be healed. So just because Semi said it doesnt make it 100% fact. It might be fact, but we cant say that for sure based on what Semi said.

 

I agree.  I wanted to point out that Nynaeve removing the weaves of Compulsion is not Healing --- it's just removing the Compulsion.  You really think Kerbs (or whatever is name was) was Healed after she removed his Compulsion??? The guy died about a minute later and was 99% vegetable.

 

Once your brain is damaged with Compulsion, removing the Compulsion at best appears to reset the parts of your brain that were touched.  'Maybe' with rehabilitation you could come back to some degree like an amnesiac relearning things.

[Echizen]

20. Question: Did Rand directly have the DO’s permission to channel the TP?

 

20. Answer: It’s very difficult (but not impossible) to channel the TP without the DO’s direct permission.

 

From this answer you can infer that it is possible for "anyone" to channel the TP. It was originally saught after for men & women to use it's power.

 

Asmodean mentions a "second void" when teaching rand about sadin, and that he has not achieved it himself. After reading this I believe there is a deeper void which Rand seems to portray when he first channels the TP. This is the key to channeling of the TP I believe.

 

Edit:  Sanderson's "direct permission" kind of makes me begin to believe the second void is something else, because current theory is Rand is channeling with indirect permission through Morridin. Two valid theories, I just thought I'd toss in the other unmentiond one.

 

[yoniy0]

I'm not here to fight

 

Then please don't. We get where you're coming from. You didn't find the last instalment believable. That's fine.

For myself, I can say that I did enjoy the book, I do think it's undoubtfully a WoT book, and I don't agree with a single point you made here (though I do agree about the Mat chapters, to some degree). That's okay, we don't have to agree. But if all you have to say is how this was a bad book, and that it's a shame, well - you've said what you came here to say. Will you leave it at that?

[Crael123]

That's a nice story, but I'll be surprised if all goes down that way. For one thing, the "Twice dawns the day" thingy if far too mysterious to be fulfilled simply by two days in which he almost dies, for my taste (and of course there have already been much more than two times he almost died).

 

 

 

 

 

I thought that prophecy was fufilled in tSR when he was he who comes with dawn... Dawn rose... 2 dawns in one day...

 

that or in TGS when the sun came out again.... more symbolitry i guess

[dflinn]

sorry my friend there arealot of things wrong and not easily disputed.

 

I'm not here to fight, but i don't put blinders over my eyes or molly coddle people i tell the truth and the truth hurts.

 

"WINTERS HEART with the choedan kal, page 641- south of her, that beacon shone, eneugh saider to waste to a continent in one blow." sanderson forgot to read this he would have rand taking the choedan kal and sneaking around killing small groups of seanchan and running away to strike again.

 

"WINTERS HEART with the choedan kal, page 651 - except that she was acting as conduit for far more of saider than the entire white tower could have handled using every angreal and sa angrael the tower possessed."

 

"CROSSROADS OF TWILIGHT surprises, page 468 - the resonance was so strong, we should have been able to smell it. there was more saidin used than saider, much more, dragonmountbeside a foothill." so if the amont of saider used was enough to melt continents,how much powerful is the choedan kal with rands strenght.

 

"THE GATHERING STORM scents unknown  pages 684 to 686 - we have to attack there,nynaeve said, ituraldesays that the blight is swarming with trollocs.the dark one is gathering his forces. you can bet that the bulk of them will be at the gap, where it'd easiestto get through and strike at andor and cairhien."

 

"she had to come with a new strategy to influence rand"

 

 

 

My friend i read alot of books, lots of different genre's like horror, science fiction, action, adventure etc, from people like stephen king, raymond e feist, fayod dayostivsky,and so one so i know quite abit about novels and i know the wheel of time inside out

 

I am not saying you dont read alot. Reading alot has nothing to do with comprehending alot. Your point is still mute to me because where is it once talking about Rand running around with the Choedan Kal attacking "small groups of seanchan"? He was about to wipe out Ebou Dar. I wouldnt call their base of operations "small groups". From there he was planning to jump to where their army was and take out their entire army, once again a far cry from "small groups". So either you are reading a different book from what I read, or you are taking things way out of context, twisting them for a little extra flair, and making very wrongful accusations about Brandon Sanderson's research. You do remember Rand taking out Graendal's ENTIRE fortress with the Choedan Kal? You also read the part at the end where Rand was considering destroying the WORLD? Actually tearing up the pattern? Exactly how much power would that take? More than a thimble full I am sure. So to say Brandon Sanderson doesnt understand the power available through the angreal is really really poor reading comprehension. Maybe you should try reading the book with an open mind instead of trying to come up with flawed reasons Brandon Sanderson failed.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

If he had read a lot of books don't you think he would put a space after a comma?

 

Unless he has read audiobooks or has a problem with punctuation or is using poetic license I doubt he has read a lot of books.

 

Also, great list of authors and genres.

[JakeBarnes]

The Immortal is posting that crap in more than one thread.  He's basically a darkfriend fanboy filling the boards with posts full of whiney BS bashing and run-on sentences.

[Sentinel78]

The Immortal is posting that crap in more than one thread.

 

Understatement, it's more like 10+ threads.

[Knobs Mahoney]

Wow. I felt like I was grading a 3rd grade english paper there for a second.

 

Good Lord, sir. At least run your posts through the grammar checker or something in MS Word before assailing our eyes with that...or, at the very least, put a banner at the top of your posts that politely asks us not to take them seriously (use the caps lock so we're sure to notice it).

 

Anyway, the book was great. Considering Brandon Sanderson had access to all of RJ's notes, and had RJ's biggest fan and editor (his wife) to go through it all with a fine-toothed comb I'd find it highly unlikely that he would screw it up as badly as you suggest. My only regret is that I have to wait another 10 months for the next one (wah!).

 

[yoniy0]

Come on, now, guys. You already know I don't like what TheImmortal had to say, but you can't bash on someone just because he wasn't born in North America/GB/Australia (or, if you can, I should probably run for cover myself).

 

Actualy, Knobs Mahoney's last post gives me an excuse to ask something I was wondering about. When I read tGS, I had a feeling the naming of the chapters was odd for a WoT book. Now, I know Harriet was in charge of that aspect of the books from the get go. However, I read BS saying that other people have told him that, as well (and laughing at their expense, but that's beside the point).

What I'm asking is if you guys felt the same way. And if you can think of any reason for that.

[Crael123]

i agree with yoniy0. the naming of the chapters were a little different than the other books. Im not bashing sanderson but idk they were very different than the past books. but i think veins of gold was the best chapter of rands plotline like..... ever. it was amazing. i will bet money RJ wrote it