Rand's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[b9anders]

One thing that has always bugged me, and which i havent seen discussed while lurking (could have missed it) dates back to the EOTW Prologue.

 

Basically, it makes no sense to me how Ishamael healed LTT's insanity.  We've learned over the years that while the taint continues to taint a channeller, even if you remove the taint, the residual effects of previous exposure remain. 

 

Did this bother anyone else?

 

If there is no apparrent explanation in the books, does this give us a clue to things to come regarding Rand?

 

Ishamael used a different kind of healing, from the Dark One. I wager the power of the dark one has few problems lifting the taint of the dark one as well, at least in the temporary department. Especially considering Moridin just promised Rand the DO could cure his insanity, prompting Rand to win some pwnage in reference to the last time he did that.

[Ged]

I think the first time, Ishy said that he could only do a temporary job... likely even with the TP. The DO himself however, may be able to do more.

 

Personally, I think healing a damaged brain should be next to impossible.

[b9anders]

Personally, I think healing a damaged brain should be next to impossible.

 

I agree. That would be like... magic. Too lame.

[SammuelLoE]

First time poster on Dragonmout. Posted a few theories on wotmania years ago, but have just been trolling for the last few years. I've read a lot of the post on the TGS forums, but I've only gotten to about page 30 on the Rand thread, so if someone else already posted this, please forgive me. This is not really a theory, and I dont have my books with me to do any quotes or anything, but I was re-reading the Rand chapters at the end of the book last night (God they were great!) and something jumped out at me, that I have not seen mentioned anywhere here. When Rand goes crazy and turns on Tam, he grabs the source, and the void crashes around him, but he is able to retain his hold on Saidin. I'm not nearly as well versed on WoT and the others who post here, but from what I can remember, this is the first time Rand has been able to hold the power without being in the void. Later when he is hunting the Seanchan he is holding the power, and there is no mention of him being in the void. And since it is the next day (He traded his coat the previous night to a Tinker) I think its safe to assume he did not hold the power for a 24 hour period. When he is atop Dragonmount again he is holding the power and no mention is made of him being in the void.

 

What I feel Cadusane has taught him is how to get past his "wilder block" of going into the void before grabbing the source. Since all Ashaman have learned to channel in this way also, I suggest that this may be the important thing that Cad had to teach Rand and the Asha'man.

 

I know my post is not as elequant as most of the others here, but just something that was on my mind and wanted to see what all the great mind on DM would have to say on it.

 

Anyways rip away  ;D

[Sentinel78]

Ishamael used a different kind of healing, from the Dark One. I wager the power of the dark one has few problems lifting the taint of the dark one as well, at least in the temporary department. Especially considering Moridin just promised Rand the DO could cure his insanity, prompting Rand to win some pwnage in reference to the last time he did that.

 

Yeah, RJ mentioned that the TP could be used to heal madness from the taint, but the OP could not.  As you indicated, it is probably similar to the Shadar Logoth effect --- The TP is used to simply cancel out the taint's effects. Granted, there would presumably be 'gaps' left in your brain since the taint was corroding things before hand.  It's not 'healing' as much as removing the effect of the taint.  When this was done, it was incredibly painful for LTT, as his brain was essentially trying to re-build itself.  That's how I saw it anyway... but yeah, since the TP is first explicitly introduced in Book 7 (although Ishy appears to have used it beforehand), this might just be a justification after-the-fact by RJ.

[Declan]

First time poster on Dragonmout. Posted a few theories on wotmania years ago, but have just been trolling for the last few years. I've read a lot of the post on the TGS forums, but I've only gotten to about page 30 on the Rand thread, so if someone else already posted this, please forgive me. This is not really a theory, and I dont have my books with me to do any quotes or anything, but I was re-reading the Rand chapters at the end of the book last night (God they were great!) and something jumped out at me, that I have not seen mentioned anywhere here. When Rand goes crazy and turns on Tam, he grabs the source, and the void crashes around him, but he is able to retain his hold on Saidin. I'm not nearly as well versed on WoT and the others who post here, but from what I can remember, this is the first time Rand has been able to hold the power without being in the void. Later when he is hunting the Seanchan he is holding the power, and there is no mention of him being in the void. And since it is the next day (He traded his coat the previous night to a Tinker) I think its safe to assume he did not hold the power for a 24 hour period. When he is atop Dragonmount again he is holding the power and no mention is made of him being in the void.

 

What I feel Cadusane has taught him is how to get past his "wilder block" of going into the void before grabbing the source. Since all Ashaman have learned to channel in this way also, I suggest that this may be the important thing that Cad had to teach Rand and the Asha'man.

 

I know my post is not as elequant as most of the others here, but just something that was on my mind and wanted to see what all the great mind on DM would have to say on it.

 

Anyways rip away  ;D

 

i must say that this idea is interesting. i do have a problem with it though. that is that i dont see the void as a block at all; maybe someone can help me out with quotes but the AS learn in a similar (not same) way to embracing saidar, and that is to pretend they are a flower opening up to the sunshine. or some such. So i can't really say that the void is a block since most blocks that i have heard of are linked to an emotion (anger like Nynaeve's) and the void is emotionless. by definition.

 

I do not consider myself a great mind on DM. that would be ridiculous. but i am interested in what Cadsuane and her haughty ways can teach the Ashaman, other than to be a prick.

[The Fisher King]

I have a question about a long-running Rand/LTT issue that has always confused me and about what we should conclude now, Post-TGS.

 

I know there have been endless pages about it here over the years, so I'm sorry, but, its always been too deep for me and now that TGS is done, I'm trying to break it down in a way I can understand it. So, my question is:

 

As of TGS, would it be accurate to say that the PRESENCE of LTT in Rand's head was not real (as in NOT really LTT talking through the centuries)...But rather that it was a manifestation of Rand's insanity...HOWEVER, the knowledge and memories were real and Rand's crazy mind used The LTT Voice as a way to internally process and understand those memories and knowledge. His way of coping with them?

 

Is that an accurate way of saying it Post-TGS? Do I finally have it right?

 

Is what I just BOLDED what Semi was tryin gto explain in KOD? Is it what she meant Granedal would have felt about it? Was Semi lying at all?

 

Also, if the knowledge and memories that ''LTT'' ... ''Talked'' to Rand about ARE real, how does Rand have them in his head? Because he is the Reborn Dragon and they come with the deal, with the package??

 

Lastly...Do yall think PREVIOUS Reborn Dragon's were like Rand in that they also had previous Dragon's real memories and knowledge in THEIR head???

 

Thanks for helping me understand this...I know its been talked to death here...but Ive never understood it.

 

The part that I put in Bold a couple paragraphs up is how I think we are supposed to understand it as of The end of TGS.

 

JMO.

 

 

Fish

[mossman87]

The LTT voice was specifically noted by RJ that he didn't want it fully explained.

 

Mato: There have been rumors that you have said that Mr. Jordan did not have anything in his notes about the voice of Lews Therin, whether it was a construct or not. That or that you had sai--[cut off]

Sanderson: I would like to clarify this, thanks for asking. I will NOT say that it was not in the notes. However, Mr. Jordan did NOT want to reveal this information, and therefore I shall not ever either. Mr. Jordan did not want to reveal it.

Harriet: What Brandon said.

Mato: Oh, ok, well that's all for now. Thanks a lot!

Sanderson: Wow, I was able to answer all three of those questions. Really well thought out, congratulations! I didn't have to RAFO you! You get a silver star.

Mato: Haha, I'll let the guys at Theoryland know that, after all, they're mostly their questions.

 

So we can speculate, but I don't think anyone knows for sure.  Personally I believe it was a coping mechanism, that was affected by the taint a bit as well.

[Declan]

I have a question about a long-running Rand/LTT issue that has always confused me and about what we should conclude now, Post-TGS.

 

I know there have been endless pages about it here over the years, so I'm sorry, but, its always been too deep for me and now that TGS is done, I'm trying to break it down in a way I can understand it. So, my question is:

 

As of TGS, would it be accurate to say that the PRESENCE of LTT in Rand's head was not real (as in NOT really LTT talking through the centuries)...But rather that it was a manifestation of Rand's insanity...HOWEVER, the knowledge and memories were real and Rand's crazy mind used The LTT Voice as a way to internally process and understand those memories and knowledge. His way of coping with them?

 

Is that an accurate way of saying it Post-TGS? Do I finall have it right?

 

 

yes. that is how i am interpreting it. i believe i have read posts on this and that is how the people ended up interpreting it as well. you have it right rest assured (according to me and some others)

 

Now BS hasn't and probably wont confirm this. ever. (correct me if im wrong please) but i feel that is the most logical and best way of thinking about it. You are right.

 

 

[The Fisher King]

Thanks alot...Thats how I see it...I certainly respect Mr RJ's wishes that it be left a mystery, but I still like to know what you guys think is the most accurate interpretation lol.

 

I think what was so complex for readers for so long (Read: ME lol) was that issue of the memories and knowledge being there and seeming real...

 

I have studied DDO, and while a seperate personality is indeed very ''real'', obviously there could not possibly be a presence of knowledge or memories that were not posesses by either personality....probably because WE aren't re-spun back out by The Wheel of Time every few centuries ;)

 

Fish

[jadelollipop]

I thought that the LTT voice was the memories and thoughts of the real LTT (didn't Semirhage say that the memories of previous lives were heard by some souls?) I have always compared it to Mat's memories of past battles. At one point they were distinct from his own and now are a seamless whole.  Rand had them separate prior to TGS  and has now integrated/accepted them along with the hope of rebirth....

[mossman87]

I thought that the LTT voice was the memories and thoughts of the real LTT (didn't Semirhage say that the memories of previous lives were heard by some souls?) I have always compared it to Mat's memories of past battles. At one point they were distinct from his own and now are a seamless whole.  Rand had them separate prior to TGS  and has now integrated/accepted them along with the hope of rebirth....

 

They are LTT's memories.  We're just discussing where the voice came from.  Mat doesn't have hundreds of voices in his head, just the memories.

[The Fisher King]

Right. EXACTLY.

 

THATS The BIG Diff!

 

Rand has Mysterious Skills/Knowledge/Memories in his Noggin.

 

Mat has Mysterious Skills/Knowledge/Memories in his Noggin.

 

BUT.

 

Rand has a voice in his head.

 

Mat does NOT have a voice in his head.

 

The Explanation: Mat is still sane enough to cope with another's Knowledge and Memories being in his head without creating an imaginary Voice/Person to help him process them.

 

At least, thats how I see it!

 

 

Fish

[mossman87]

Here ya go:

 

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2566

Question: Was the taint influential in the creation/development/existence of the voice of Lews Therin in Rand's head?

Brandon answered that the taint was influential, but not the only factor. He referenced Semirhage, that of course we can't believe the Forsaken always, but yes, that the taint was an influence in the the voice. That we have to accept that in fact, in a way, Rand is going insane (as in as the books progress).

 

so yeah, IMO it was just a coping mechanism, but the taint didn't help it, maybe was the reason Rand couldn't differentiate.  I'm not going to get too deep into it since we'll never know for sure, and I don't want to go nuts over it.

[FanoLan]

Agreed with the above post by Fisher King and just wanted to add that Matt also does not carry the burden of actually being those souls reborn.  Rand is the Dragon Reborn, the Kinslayer, and the guilt of his deeds also impacted Rand's ability to integrate LTT.

[lillcheese]

probably because WE aren't re-spun back out by The Wheel of Time every few centuries ;)

 

Fish

 

Speak for yourself ;)

[The Fisher King]

LOL!!!

 

 

Fish

[randfandom]

so yeah, IMO it was just a coping mechanism, but the taint didn't help it, maybe was the reason Rand couldn't differentiate.  I'm not going to get too deep into it since we'll never know for sure, and I don't want to go nuts over it.

 

I think a large part of why the voice was created was that when the memories started appearing, the most powerful and recent one was that of murdering his entire family, and his wife in particular. A 19 year old Rand was not able to cope with having this event be part of himself, so he subconsciously created the Lews Therin persona so as not to view himself as the one who commited the murder, which he would have to, had he accepted these memories as his own.

[djamespease]

What I feel Cadusane has taught him is how to get past his "wilder block" of going into the void before grabbing the source. Since all Ashaman have learned to channel in this way also, I suggest that this may be the important thing that Cad had to teach Rand and the Asha'man.

 

Didn't Asmodean help him break his block? He mentions after training with Asmodean for a while that he can now seize the source every time, which he couldn't do before.

[Auld Manriva]

so yeah, IMO it was just a coping mechanism, but the taint didn't help it, maybe was the reason Rand couldn't differentiate.  I'm not going to get too deep into it since we'll never know for sure, and I don't want to go nuts over it.

 

I think a large part of why the voice was created was that when the memories started appearing, the most powerful and recent one was that of murdering his entire family, and his wife in particular. A 19 year old Rand was not able to cope with having this event be part of himself, so he subconsciously created the Lews Therin persona so as not to view himself as the one who commited the murder, which he would have to, had he accepted these memories as his own.

 

 

Was Rand not being beaten and stuffed in a box when he started "recognizing" the presence of Mr. Giggles there in his solitary confinement? That's another reason the recognition of memories he shouldn't have, needed some "presence" to explain them.

 

Poor ol' Rand's neuroses have a lot of justification behind them. Along with Mat and Perrin as well. The Three Lads are the only characters, for the most part, who I've not become frustrated with time and again. Their issues have reasons, other than the not talking to each other. That continues to bug the devil outta me.

[ed2funy]

What I feel Cadusane has taught him is how to get past his "wilder block" of going into the void before grabbing the source. Since all Ashaman have learned to channel in this way also, I suggest that this may be the important thing that Cad had to teach Rand and the Asha'man.

 

Didn't Asmodean help him break his block? He mentions after training with Asmodean for a while that he can now seize the source every time, which he couldn't do before.

 

I think he means the same type of block that Nyn has...

 

she had to be angry to channel...he had to be in the void...

 

who knows...

[Auld Manriva]

I don't see "the void" as a block either. Seems to me it's part and parcel of pulling the OP trigger. Especially when one is consciously "trying" to grasp the OP.

 

It's like any skilled endeavour such as shooting. Sometimes it's reflexive, sometimes you must relax and aim. Like Sundance needing to "move" to hit the can tossed by Strother Martin when he couldn't hit it standing still and aiming.

 

Wielding the OP would be much like that to my mind. Teaching yourself to be as quick when you must think as when using it reflexively would seem to be the trick and the "void" is part of the thinking method.

 

[ed2funy]

meh...

if i could use it quickly...i don't think i would need the void to make me think clearer...

the power will make my other senses sharper...

 

sure it is great to be in..but i don't think it is absolutely necessary..

[Mr Ares]

Also, if the knowledge and memories that ''LTT'' ... ''Talked'' to Rand about ARE real, how does Rand have them in his head? Because he is the Reborn Dragon and they come with the deal, with the package??

 

Lastly...Do yall think PREVIOUS Reborn Dragon's were like Rand in that they also had previous Dragon's real memories and knowledge in THEIR head???

 

Thanks for helping me understand this...I know its been talked to death here...but Ive never understood it.

Good question. The memories are real. They are also not Rand's. How does Rand have them in his head?  Well, so far as we can tell, it's not some natural part of being the Dragon - fellow Hero Birgitte loses her memories, and we have no indication LTT had any memories besides his own. So they are not seen in previous incarnations, they don't come with the package, as far as we can tell. It would appear to be a part of the madness - his mind broke down the walls between lives.

[Auld Manriva]

meh...

if i could use it quickly...i don't think i would need the void to make me think clearer...

the power will make my other senses sharper...

 

sure it is great to be in..but i don't think it is absolutely necessary..

 

Not sure, but I think you may have missed what I was making a weak attempt to relate. Using the OP without thinking is reflexive, an unconscious reaction to some threat or immediate need. But considering a problem, then using the OP as a tool to solve it, that might be when using the void to access/touch the OP would be needed or desired. Kind of a Zen thing I think, not that I'm any Zen expert. With practice, study or long use the conscious action of using the void wouldn't even be noticed.

 

It's directly related to sports psychology if you think about it.

 

from: Mr. Ares

Good question. The memories are real. They are also not Rand's. How does Rand have them in his head?  Well, so far as we can tell, it's not some natural part of being the Dragon - fellow Hero Birgitte loses her memories, and we have no indication LTT had any memories besides his own. So they are not seen in previous incarnations, they don't come with the package, as far as we can tell. It would appear to be a part of the madness - his mind broke down the walls between lives.

 

Good Answer. I can totally get behind that and maybe now with Rands' new acceptance he can use them to great advantage. One that prior incarnations may not have possessed.