Terry Goodkind and the Sword of Truth novels

[Anoxanmore]

Yes, but that is why I supplied the "fair use" laws as well, which complicate things.

[Ashaman Kovan]

So much so that I stopped reading that part about 3 seconds in lol.

[Anoxanmore]

Hence why he hasn't been sued even though it looks like he could have been.

[Ashaman Kovan]

I'll take your word for it that you think you know and graciously disagree Princess. :]

[Anoxanmore]

Bleh, you can disagree all you want, you are still incorrect. :P

[Sirayn]

Well....I disagree lol. I think RJ probably did too. About the only thing he said of the guy that I know about is that he was "Aware of Mr. Goodkind", right? You know that stuff much better than I do. But if anyone besides WoT fans, including RJ, really thought that there was that much obvious "Plagiarism", then lawsuits would have happened. Lawsuits are one of the foundations of our good ol' American society. People sue, and oftentimes win, for much less. I mean come on, "Sue me" is a sarcastic phrase based on how often it happens lol. I have to think that if RJ or Harriet as his editor or whoever is involved in noticing that kind of thing really believed it was plagiarism they would have taken legal action. And if it's as convincing and open and shut, the way you feel, he'd have won.

 

I only skimmed the last few posts, so my apologies if anyone said this already, but one key distinction: plagiarism is not illegal and you can't sue for it.

 

Plagiarism = stealing someone else's ideas = unethical = not illegal.

Copyright infringement = stealing someone else's words/text = illegal.

 

If Goodkind was passing off huge sections of the actual text as his own, then there might have been cause for a copyright infringement lawsuit. But there's one compelling reason why there was not and never would be a lawsuit: Goodkind and Jordan share the same publisher. You know how publishers send C&D (cease and desist) letters to people who infringe their authors' copyright? Tor would be sending C&D letters to themselves. Authors with the same publisher don't sue each other.

 

That's not to say that there is no plagiarism, ie unethically stealing someone else's ideas and passing them off as your own, going on.

[Luckers]

That is indeed the problem Asha'man Kovan. Which is why RJ said 'I'm aware of Mr. Goodkind'. Not, 'Mr. Goodkind did not plagarise off me', but that he was aware, and there was nothing he could legally do about it.

 

Do I get like a handicap or anything in this argument? Because your articulative powers far exceed my own. In case my very powerful "Well I disagree" didn't clue you in on that.

 

I'm not looking to browbeat you. The only reason I grew so strident to begin with was because I didn't like being told to keep my comments to that I personally disliked him. My dislike in fact is based in my opinion about his plagarism--from there yes it is added to by his more than despicable conduct--but it was based in that. For me to offer my opinion clearly requires I relate this.

 

You don't have to agree with me, just don't tell me not to agree with me. :D

[Ashaman Kovan]

Well....I disagree lol. I think RJ probably did too. About the only thing he said of the guy that I know about is that he was "Aware of Mr. Goodkind", right? You know that stuff much better than I do. But if anyone besides WoT fans, including RJ, really thought that there was that much obvious "Plagiarism", then lawsuits would have happened. Lawsuits are one of the foundations of our good ol' American society. People sue, and oftentimes win, for much less. I mean come on, "Sue me" is a sarcastic phrase based on how often it happens lol. I have to think that if RJ or Harriet as his editor or whoever is involved in noticing that kind of thing really believed it was plagiarism they would have taken legal action. And if it's as convincing and open and shut, the way you feel, he'd have won.

 

I only skimmed the last few posts, so my apologies if anyone said this already, but one key distinction: plagiarism is not illegal and you can't sue for it.

 

Plagiarism = stealing someone else's ideas = unethical = not illegal.

Copyright infringement = stealing someone else's words/text = illegal.

 

If Goodkind was passing off huge sections of the actual text as his own, then there might have been cause for a copyright infringement lawsuit. But there's one compelling reason why there was not and never would be a lawsuit: Goodkind and Jordan share the same publisher. You know how publishers send C&D (cease and desist) letters to people who infringe their authors' copyright? Tor would be sending C&D letters to themselves. Authors with the same publisher don't sue each other.

 

That's not to say that there is no plagiarism, ie unethically stealing someone else's ideas and passing them off as your own, going on.

 

Still, if it was that open and shut of a case. If RJ and Tom what's his face are such good friends and everything SOMETHING would have been done. If it was that unethical something would have been done. Regardless if they're published by the same guys or not.

[Ashaman Kovan]

That is indeed the problem Asha'man Kovan. Which is why RJ said 'I'm aware of Mr. Goodkind'. Not, 'Mr. Goodkind did not plagarise off me', but that he was aware, and there was nothing he could legally do about it.

 

I don't see that as being the case.

 

 

You don't have to agree with me, just don't tell me not to agree with me. :D

 

Point taken sir. My bad. :]

[Ashaman Kovan]

Bleh, you can disagree all you want, you are still incorrect. :P

 

Right back at ya Princess. :]

 

 

[Luckers]

Still, if it was that open and shut of a case. If RJ and Tom what's his face are such good friends and everything SOMETHING would have been done. If it was that unethical something would have been done. Regardless if they're published by the same guys or not.

 

That's a nice idea, but do you realise how much money Tor has made off SoT? No way in hell they'd jeaprodise that.

 

And what could RJ do in return? Withhold his own books? Tor could sue him for breach of contract. He certainly doesn't have a legal case.

 

And don't mistake things. RJ and Tom Doherty were really good business friends.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Still, if it was that open and shut of a case. If RJ and Tom what's his face are such good friends and everything SOMETHING would have been done. If it was that unethical something would have been done. Regardless if they're published by the same guys or not.

 

That's a nice idea, but do you realise how much money Tor has made off SoT? No way in hell they'd jeaprodise that.

 

And what could RJ do in return? Withhold his own books? Tor could sue him for breach of contract. He certainly doesn't have a legal case.

 

I don't realize how much money they made, no. Maybe I'm naive when it comes to these kinds of things, but from what I've always heard that Tom guy who runs the place right(?) and RJ were really super good buddies. And this TG guy (Allegedly) blatantly plagiarizes from said good buddy that maybe he would have something to say about it. tEoTW came out in 1990 and Wizards First Rule came out 4 years later. About exactly two months before LoC did. I'm sure they had seen the book before it actually came out and at that point, with WoT almost 6 books in there was nothing RJ or anyone else could do or say about the "blatant plagiarism"?

[Anoxanmore]

RJ might not have seen the book before it came out and it was really after the first book things got super bad. In so far as copying. :)

 

The first book wasn't so bad... in fact it had a lot of promise, which is what I think TG was going for.

[Sirayn]

I like to imagine that a hypothetical conversation between Robert Jordan and Tom Doherty of Tor about Goodkind's plagiarism might have gone something like this.

 

RJ: Goodkind is plagiarising my work.

TD: Yes. And the more he sells, the more we can pay you.

RJ: Make him stop plagiarising me.

TD: How? The first book has already been published and it's selling well. We can’t pull it. We can’t make him rewrite it and publish a new edition. We can’t make him cut those elements out of the next books because there would be major continuity issues.

RJ: But he’s plagiarising me!

TD: You explicitly made the opening of The Eye of the World as similar to the opening of The Lord of the Rings as possible. I’m just saying.

RJ: Do something or I’m taking my bestselling series to another publisher.

TD: Have fun with your new reputation as a contract-breaking ingrate who abandons his friends and supporters. Or you could stay with Tor. Would you like another stratospherically huge advance? I hear the smell of crisp new money is soothing to the ego.

 

Kind of a no-win scenario for everybody, in other words.  :D

[Anoxanmore]

How... is EotW opening like LoTR?

[Sirayn]

How... is EotW opening like LoTR?

 

Wikipedia quote:

 

Robert Jordan has stated that he consciously intended the early chapters of The Eye of the World to evoke the Shire of Middle-earth  in J. R. R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings. Other strong allusions to The Lord of the Rings exist as well, particularly the incorporeal and invisible Dark Lord, the dark home realm of Mordor compared to Thakan'dar (as well as Shayol Ghul to the fiery pit of Mount Doom), obvious similarities between Trollocs and Orcs, Myrddraal and Nazgûl, and Padan Fain and Gollum.

[StefanR]

There's a lot of blatant rip offs by TG from WoT other than the ones Luckers mentioned

 

"Rada'han=a'dam

Pebble in a Pond=ta'veren

The Creator=The Creator

The Dark One=the Keeper

The Betrayal of the Winds=The Taint on Saidin (an ancient act of pride by a male wizard resulting in the male gift of power failing/not being accessible due to it being touched or witheld by the Keeper/Dark One)"

 

Wizards fire=Balefire (neither can be stopped, EXCEPT by using the sword to part the fire)

Sword of Truth=Callandor

Prelate=Amirlyn (Both are meddling women who are removed, and are replaced by younger women)

Sisters of the Dark=Black Ajah

Blood of the Fold=Whitecloaks

Cara/Khlan/Nicci=Min/Avi/Elayne - Both have 3 female figures that play a large part in the series and are close to the protagonist

Palace of Prophets time-slowing spell=AS Agelessness

Temple of the Winds=Rhuidean (Both contain lots of items of the power that AoL AS considered too dangerous to be out in the world, and both were protected by magic/OP)

Linking

Sliph Well=Portal Stones

Majende=Aiel (Both warrior societies, and had prophecy about being saved/led by the protagonist, and both found a new home due to actions by him (land where the Towers of Perdition were/Rhuidean))

Ravens are used as spies in both

Blood Beast=Fain

 

 

 

 

[Anoxanmore]

They may have been what he was going for, but the opening of EotW is nothing like the opening of LotR.

 

So... whatever.

[Barmacral]

You misunderstand, Anox. Not just the opening of EotW, but the whole book's storyline in general. Rand and Frodo are both inexperienced young men who suddenly have to leave their relatively obscure homes in order to go to some sort of safe haven to protect them from a mythical bad guy that wants something to do with them. Both characters have a mysterious magi type character who gets them to leave, and are separated from said at some point or another, having to make their way into the world on their own.

 

Sure, the stories themselves are quite different, but the general premise is the same.

 

However, if you would prefer to discuss this further, let me know and I will split the posts into a new thread and move it to the WoT discussion for you. Lets keep this thread on topic of Sword of Truth, as that is what the thread is for.

[Anoxanmore]

However, if you would prefer to discuss this further, let me know and I will split the posts into a new thread and move it to the WoT discussion for you. Lets keep this thread on topic of Sword of Truth, as that is what the thread is for.

You mean hating on SoT and LoS (DEAD) right? LOL :P

[Corki]

You misunderstand, Anox. Not just the opening of EotW, but the whole book's storyline in general. Rand and Frodo are both inexperienced young men who suddenly have to leave their relatively obscure homes in order to go to some sort of safe haven to protect them from a mythical bad guy that wants something to do with them. Both characters have a mysterious magi type character who gets them to leave, and are separated from said at some point or another, having to make their way into the world on their own.

 

The words and phrases I have underlined is basically what makes the fantasy genre. And it is not just males who are involved. Other character examples include:

 

- Richard Cypher/Rahl from SoT

- Karigan G'ladheon from The Green Rider series by Kristen Britain

- Wyl Thirsk from The Quickening trilogy by Fiona McIntosh

 

Those are the ones I can think of from looking at my slim collection of fantasy on my book shelves up here in London. I could probably add to it if I was at my parents, as that is where most of my fantasy books are.

[water_seeker]

I went to Barnes and Noble a couple days ago to pick up the Mistborn books.  When I got to the fantasy section I saw someone looking @ the SoT books and I suggested to them that they put the book they were holding back as it's not worth the time/monetary investment.  A little while later he put it back, but he picked it up again.  I repeated my earlier statement about the book...that's when he turned to me, turned his hearing aid on, and said "what was that?" :D

 

P.S.  He left with tEotW. ;)

[Hallow]

You misunderstand, Anox. Not just the opening of EotW, but the whole book's storyline in general. Rand and Frodo are both inexperienced young men who suddenly have to leave their relatively obscure homes in order to go to some sort of safe haven to protect them from a mythical bad guy that wants something to do with them. Both characters have a mysterious magi type character who gets them to leave, and are separated from said at some point or another, having to make their way into the world on their own.

 

Sure, the stories themselves are quite different, but the general premise is the same.

 

However, if you would prefer to discuss this further, let me know and I will split the posts into a new thread and move it to the WoT discussion for you. Lets keep this thread on topic of Sword of Truth, as that is what the thread is for.

 

Except Frodo was far from young when he left the Shire (50 years old), just sayin'..

[Ashaman Kovan]

I went to Barnes and Noble a couple days ago to pick up the Mistborn books.  When I got to the fantasy section I saw someone looking @ the SoT books and I suggested to them that they put the book they were holding back as it's not worth the time/monetary investment.  A little while later he put it back, but he picked it up again.  I repeated my earlier statement about the book...that's when he turned to me, turned his hearing aid on, and said "what was that?" :D

 

P.S.  He left with tEotW. ;)

 

Cool story bro.

[lordrains]

Despite everything i hate about the SoT series it had its moments. Whe i read wizards first rule i thought it was a great book but the more i read into the series it just seemed like a kid making it up as he went along. Oh yeah and after temple of the winds i really disliked kahlan.