Prologue, Chap. 1-50, Epilogue

[lillcheese]

I think Graendal died. Rand's plan isn't something she would have seen coming. All of the Forsaken KNOW that he's not using Balefire or hurting/killing women (Elza is spying so that's 1 source of many). He balefires the entire place. Completely unexpected. I think she ate it because she got over confident. Just as she got over confident with others already (Sammael).

 

All that you say is true.  The problem is that it doesn't address the disconnect between the information we've previously received about her location and the description of the manor he destroyed.

 

Also, I'm thinking that it's pretty likely the blond boy messenger Rand finds is the same one Moridin sends to summon Graendel in the Prologue.  She specifically chooses to not use Compulsion on him for fear that Moridin will get annoyed.  Yes, she might have gotten back to her lair and decided to play with his mind anyway.  I think, though, combined with the location inconsistencies (and the less skillful compulsion?  did someone mention that?) it is more likely a decoy set up by Moridin to protect her.  She *is* in favor right now.

[Beren]

4.  Zombies - I loved it.  Maybe that's because I love zombie movies.  Still, how is this any stranger than a man's insides turning into tar, cockroaches swelling out of the ground (and being entirely the wrong species iirc), and playing cards trying to kill you?  The difference here is how long the bubble of evil is lasting, maybe also the lack of proximity to a ta'veren - several (4 - 5?) months prior to Matt's arrival.

 

 

It's not a bubble of evil. It is a fraying in the Pattern. The Patter is essentially trying to reset itself in this town resulting in the same day being lived over and over. I think this is quite different from the bubbles of evil and that the people going insane at night is due to the extended effects of this rip in the Pattern. I can't remember right off hand, but does this chapter have the "ripped lace" chapter icon?

[richnewton82]

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[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

I think Graendal is alive richnewton. Nathin's Barrow was a ruse, it was not her true stronghold. There were a couple minute differences in descriptions between the prologue and Rand's observations. I think she was inside the palace, to set it all up, but she held the web of compulsion rather than knotting it and bounced as soon as she saw Nyn delve him. Once she fled thru the gateway, the compulsion became useless and dissolved due to the spinner's (Graendal's) proximity. It is similar to a shield; the further away you get, the easier it is to break through it. When she traveled, the web evaporated as it was dependent on her holding it together, similar to when she compelled Lan/dane and Moggy, and then it was removed due to Shadar Haran's appearance. Remember, Rand made a point of saying she understood him better than he knew himself. A talented psychologist (take Hannibal Lecter as a comparison) could easily figure out what Rand would do. She also made a point of saying that if it came down to it, she would throw herself on his mercy. If she thought it was all over, and he was unalterably coming to kill her, she would do just that. Instead, she out smarted him, flanked him, and escaped to fight another day.

 

 

Mr Micawber, you very well could be right. Demandred is probably, at this point, living and running on his hatred. He feeds his existence off of it. I think Rand was actually becoming similar to him as he tried to make himself 'harder.' Granted, we only have two or three pov's from him, right? LoC when he is at Shayol Ghul, the tea party in WH where Landane talks about the Choedan Kal, and WH when he has traveled to Shadar Logoth during the cleansing. The rest is from others observing and judging and remembering him, so who knows what is really going on inside of his head. I kind of thought once he had his revenge on LTT he would kind of come out of his shell to live again, but I could see your idea coming to fruition.

[Mr. Micawber]

 

 

Mr Micawber, you very well could be right. Demandred is probably, at this point, living and running on his hatred. He feeds his existence off of it. I think Rand was actually becoming similar to him as he tried to make himself 'harder.' Granted, we only have two or three pov's from him, right? LoC when he is at Shayol Ghul, the tea party in WH where Landane talks about the Choedan Kal, and WH when he is has traveled to Shadar Logoth during the cleansing. The rest is from others observing and judging and remembering him, so who knows what is really going on inside of his head. I kind of thought once he had his revenge on LTT he would kind of come out of his shell to live again, but I could see your idea coming to fruition.

 

Holy Bovine Fecal Matter, I never thought about it that way. CrazyRand probably was becoming Demandred.

[richnewton82]

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[Mr. Micawber]

The idea that she knew Shadar Haran would release Semmirahage, she'd use the male adam on him, he'd manage to escape using the True Power and suddenly get over his inhibition to balefire or kill innocents, particularly women, in such an amazingly uncharacteristic way.... and to have somebody who can channel in place and ready to use compulsion (not widespread knowledge) on the guy or as you said, weave compulsion knowing it was a test for her death....

 

very very very very doubtful.

 

 

She's crafty but I mean, really?

 

The idea that Shaidar Haran and Elan Morin would know Semirhage would exceed her mission orders to torture Rand, and thusly be blasted out of existence? That, however, is eminently plausible, and despite the seriously screwed up chapter 22, I laughed with glee when Semirhage realized "Oh Sh-" *BF'ed*

[bushleague]

A couple things and I apoligize if they've already been asked/discussed/debated... its hard when half the posts in the thread are questions from people who have not read the book (no offense meant though).

 

I do not believe Graendal is dead... it's not RJ/Sanderson style to kill off a major foe in the book without even giving a clue to whether or not they died.

 

Rand channelling the TP... gift from the dark one to kill Semirage, or effect of his connection with Moridin?  Even with SH's presence I'm still not convinced.

 

Rand's Ta'veren side only affecting chance for the worse and the darkness that is constantly surrounding him after he snaps.  This along with the fact that it seems like he can manipulate his ta'vereness.  What the heck?  Just cause he suddenly becomes a negative person I don't understand why the pattern loses the ability to balance itself.

 

I'm convince Verin is dead although i wouldn't be surprised if there was some kind of catch... I was really hoping she would be at the last battle, but what she did was incredible.

 

The letter she gave Mat, obviously something to do with the Horn... or at least i thought so.

 

We haven't seen the last of Elaida... I really want her to be in the outrigger novels as a personal damane to Tuon, only submissive.

 

I don't think mesaana left the tower and I no longer think she's Aes Sedai... I don't see any way around the oath rod.

 

There's more but I'll stop... few things I still want to know are where the hell Demandred is, is Elayne's plot line winding down much like Avienda's did, and who killed Asmodean!?

[richnewton82]

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[lillcheese]

4.  Zombies - I loved it.  Maybe that's because I love zombie movies.  Still, how is this any stranger than a man's insides turning into tar, cockroaches swelling out of the ground (and being entirely the wrong species iirc), and playing cards trying to kill you?  The difference here is how long the bubble of evil is lasting, maybe also the lack of proximity to a ta'veren - several (4 - 5?) months prior to Matt's arrival.

 

 

It's not a bubble of evil. It is a fraying in the Pattern. The Patter is essentially trying to reset itself in this town resulting in the same day being lived over and over. I think this is quite different from the bubbles of evil and that the people going insane at night is due to the extended effects of this rip in the Pattern. I can't remember right off hand, but does this chapter have the "ripped lace" chapter icon?

 

I guess I was thinking that the bubbles were getting strong/numerous enough that they were tearing the pattern now as they burst.   It did have the ripped lace icon.

[Mr. Micawber]

when she realized Rand held the True Power and her master's power was being used against her... that was a pretty awesome moment.

 

"Oh, sh-"

 

TP FTW!

[richnewton82]

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[lillcheese]

The problem is that it doesn't address the disconnect between the information we've previously received about her location and the description of the manor he destroyed.

 

What disconnect?

 

I believe someone else detailed it in this thread somewhere but I'm not going to go back and search.  From what I recall, Sammael informs us that:

 

1. the location is well known locally

2. everyone in the area would think that the current occupants had lived there for generations

 

The manor Rand destroyed was discovered after an experienced librarian did some research and the locals knew, although had not much considered, that the current occupant was new. 

 

So, either Sammael was wrong or it was a decoy Manor.

 

[bushleague]

Sorry a couple of quick more things.  

 

I'm positive the borderlanders are being controlled by BA.  The whole Far Madding things makes me believe they have a trap waiting for Rand.

 

I loved the fact that Rand made peace with Ituralde, but was disappointed with his treatment of him after.

 

Did anyone else think Hurin was Demandred waiting with a trap for Rand?

 

It was finally nice to see some weakness in Cadsuane.  She deserved to be taken down a few notches and when Rand banishes her, it was bittersweet,

 

I think that Rand will still continue to share Lews Therin's memories, its just the voices will be gone... instead of being two separate consciousnesses, there will only be Rand but with bits of LTT.

 

I thought that the Wise Ones were mistreated Avi because they wanted her to propose to Rand, not stand up for herself... I got owned on that one.

 

Thank God Sheriam is dead... she seemed like a waste of an Aes Sedai after joining with the rebels.

 

What has halim'gar been up to?

[Mr. Micawber]

 

Did anyone else think Hurin was Demandred waiting with a trap for Rand?

 

 

Demandred is the sole Forsaken not to be captured or killed.

 

There's no way he's stupid enough to do something so amateur, so bush league if you will.  ;D

[GlowingThread]

Mr. Micawber: Thanks for agreeing about the change of heart though I think I will stick to my original theory. I think you might be under the impression that the three becoming one has to be all done at once. I do not see it that way. Rand's reintegration, with Lews Therin never returning shows the two, well um... integrating, I guess. that means to me that we are already part way to three becoming one, doesn’t it? I think this strengthens my theory not weaken it. The prophesy could also reffer to Rand, Mat and Perrin coming close enough to become one giant taveren light emitter, though I find the original more likely...

[bushleague]

people need to stop and realize how smart rand's move with Graendal was. He even explained it. A direct confrontation was impossible with her and always would be. There was no way to move on her and win. She was prepared to escape the moment she sensed danger. That is her way. Has Rand ever done anything other than face Forsaken head on in 1v1 combat? No. There is no way she could have expected a WALL of balefire destroying her entire palace. That was 100% unexpected. When I read that I had to stop and reread it. Most people probably did.

 

People are giving entirely too much credit to Graenal and not enough to Rand. That was his only option there and it was such a good plan none of us saw it coming. How would she have?

 

Its not that I think Graedal is craftier than Rand... its that if they were going to kill her off, there would have been a Graedal PoV that showed her dying like "She was walking and all off a sudden a bright light came towards her and then she died" with more detail obviously.  RJ/BS wouldn't leave a way out if she wasn't still alive.

 

On top of that I seriously doubt that they would kill off two of the remaining Forsaken with two more books left. Plus Graendal is the forsaken with which we have more PoV's than any other.

 

Graendal is alive not because it would make sense in a real life situation.  She's not dead because it makes 0 sense plot wise.

[richnewton82]

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[claireducky]

author=Sterling3763 link=topic=49099.msg1334372#msg1334372 date=1256775841]

I agree.  Rand may still be part of a three person Callandor circle, but I think the prophecy (and ultimate, permanent victory over the Dark One) will depend on use of saidin, saidar and the True Power.  Lews Therin states that the seal was imperfect (and saidin was tainted) because they only used one half of the One Power.  But I assume saidar would be just as vulnerable to the taint as saidin was.  So they'll need to use the True Power as well to keep the taint away from the joint saidin/saidar seal.

 

cad is right but wrong

the theory that callandor can only be used safely in a circle of 3, applies to every1 except the dragon. we know this b/c he has used it safely, 4+ times  despite the lack of a buffer. what better defense for a weapon than to have it be unusable except by trusting 2 women. we know the forsaken wont link with each other from there conversations and look down and dont trust the BA. rand has tobe directing the flows, Why? b/c hes the most skilled and knownledgeable channeller on the side of the light. the dragon has some odd talent to self buffer and overdraw on the OP w/o stilling himself or dieing. we have seen him draw more than he can a few times and yet hes still fine.

TP(dark) + OP (neutral) + (x)P(light) or saidin + saidar + true power either of these is possible

 

 

Um...I wouldn't call losing control of Saidin and killing his own troops in Altara is "used safely".  He has no talent, he just got lucky.  

[Olorin]

Here's something I have been thinking since reading some of your thoughts on Graendal. I don't think she's dead either. Something Moridin said in the Prologue about her causing Rand "pain of heart" makes me think we haven't seen the last of her. That would be her way, too: hitting Rand through someone like Elayne, Min, or Aviendha (my money is on Min) to cause him pain of heart.

 

Unless I'm misinterpreting this.

[richnewton82]

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[bushleague]

 

Did anyone else think Hurin was Demandred waiting with a trap for Rand?

 

 

Demandred is the sole Forsaken not to be captured or killed.

 

There's no way he's stupid enough to do something so amateur, so bush league if you will.  ;D

 

Har har.  I didn't mean that I seriously considered Demandred was posing as Hurin, but when the Maidens said that only one person came my first thought was "Oh s$%#, we're finally going to know who he is!!!" And I expected a trap of some kind, but as soon as they said Hurin I realized it wasn't him

[Ereinion]

people need to stop and realize how smart rand's move with Graendal was. He even explained it. A direct confrontation was impossible with her and always would be. There was no way to move on her and win. She was prepared to escape the moment she sensed danger. That is her way. Has Rand ever done anything other than face Forsaken head on in 1v1 combat? No. There is no way she could have expected a WALL of balefire destroying her entire palace. That was 100% unexpected. When I read that I had to stop and reread it. Most people probably did.

 

People are giving entirely too much credit to Graenal and not enough to Rand. That was his only option there and it was such a good plan none of us saw it coming. How would she have?

 

Its not that I think Graedal is craftier than Rand... its that if they were going to kill her off, there would have been a Graedal PoV that showed her dying like "She was walking and all off a sudden a bright light came towards her and then she died" with more detail obviously.  RJ/BS wouldn't leave a way out if she wasn't still alive.

 

On top of that I seriously doubt that they would kill off two of the remaining Forsaken with two more books left. Plus Graendal is the forsaken with which we have more PoV's than any other.

 

Graendal is alive not because it would make sense in a real life situation.  She's not dead because it makes 0 sense plot wise.

 

It makes plenty of plot sense(The bad guy dies). There are plenty of forsaken left for two more books if you include those that have been reborn. And though Graendal has more PoV's than many other forsaken, it's still not very many. She didn't make it all the way to TG, but there really isn't much left from Rand's PoV to go. Also, remember that the last two books are really just the last 2/3s of the last book.

[sumquy]

Just finished the book and I gotta say IMO one of, if not the, best in the series. Honestly, I think BS did a better job even than RJ of making the characters real and believeable. Not to take anything away from the master, he did plot and storyline better than anyone i've ever read, but characters just weren't his strong suit.

 

Having said that, my only disappointment was Mat. Maybe BS just didn't get him, but I thought he just came off whiny in this one. I actually found myself liking Egwene in this one for the first time in the series. And Rand, OMG, Rand. The scenes with him were probably some of the best i've ever read in any book. At several points in the book i actually found a tear or two sliding down my face. Pure awesomeness.

[bushleague]

Its not that I think Graedal is craftier than Rand... its that if they were going to kill her off, there would have been a Graedal PoV that showed her dying like "She was walking and all off a sudden a bright light came towards her and then she died" with more detail obviously.  RJ/BS wouldn't leave a way out if she wasn't still alive.

 

On top of that I seriously doubt that they would kill off two of the remaining Forsaken with two more books left. Plus Graendal is the forsaken with which we have more PoV's than any other.

 

Graendal is alive not because it would make sense in a real life situation.  She's not dead because it makes 0 sense plot wise.

 

I'm just going to have to disagree then. Because we've seen plenty of Forsaken killed without seeing it from their POV. This smacks of a BS/RJ move to cause a lot of speculation on the forums. And people will just fall all over it for the next 2 years.

 

It didn't necessarily have to be her PoV, but more confirmation than her mansion disappearing... but in this case it would have to have been a PoV.  

 

Graendal was pretty much our only view into the forsaken plotting... it seems very odd to kill her off without telling us she's actually dead.

 

Plus name one character who has had multiple PoV's and we don't recieve either a PoV of their own confirming their death or a poV of someone else watching them die.  As much as I'd like to agree with you, that RJ/BS would do it just to mess with us, I don't think they would ever go this far.  We don't know who killed Asmodean but we know he is dead.