Why Do None of the Characters Understand Balefire?

[Wingendosering]

@ richnewton:

 

Yeah, removing one of the most dangerous Dreadlords and major players in TG before the Last Battle can begin would be pointless...*facepalm*

 

Even if Rand's hand wasn't an issue...killing her still makes a world of sense.  Women can't teach men...remember the fish teaching birds to swim?  Killing her before she can kill Maidens or Rand at TG makes a boatload of sense to me.

[richnewton82]

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[Mr. Micawber]

she's already removed.. she's captured.. balefiring a captured enemy leader is 100% pointless. in a war when you capture anybody with any information that could be useful you don't kill them.. come on. think rationally.

 

However, if they do decide to execute her, they had better use Balefire, because anything else the Big Guy can work around. What I really, really hope, in order to end this ridiculous resurrection device of transmigration, is that Semirhage lets slip that Dashiva = Osan'gar = Aginor. Then maybe someone will put 2 and 2 together and get 4. Of course, the way these people think, if an AS does it, Rand will be suspicious, if Rand does it, none of the women will believe it, if an Asha'man does it, everyone will think he's still addled from the taint, and if Min does it, I'll throw up my hands in disgust at little Miss Plot Device.

[Wingendosering]

How is her info useful?  I suppose Nynaeve could theoretically learn healing, but why would she teach them?  They don't torture people, and certainly wouldn't scare Ms. Pro-torture herself and as a torturer, she knows less about other things, just as Moghedien knew nothing in most areas.  Any other forsaken could just travel in and free her later.  They should kill her before she can wreak havoc at TG, to me that jusst makes sense.

[richnewton82]

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[magnutz]

This is one of the plot devices I feel have been invented after the invention of the weave itself.

If channeling/weaves was invented, I think all of it would have been the Creator's.

Channeling having an genetic component could be an indicator of that.

 

The only inventions from the One Power I think would be constructs/terangreal/sa'angreal/angreal.

 

I seem to have been a wee bit hazy here. ;) I meant "invented by RJ" - RJ put Balefire into the story and then it got worked on as the story proggressed. It went through a metamorphosis of sorts. In the beginning it doesn't appear dangerous, simply very powerful and a part of something forgotten. Later on it is dangerous and also a weave that the WT worked hard to erase from the general knowledge-base of the WT. It evolved. RJ enriched it. That is what I meant. And that makes it hard to understand, to the characters in the story. In one book it is OK to use it and in laters books it is very very not OK. That, is my theory. ;) (again)

[Sharaman]

Randland isn't really into the controlled scientific experiment and finding out how to use balefire would be difficult in any case. I guess you'd have to do something like breed bunches of rats or rabbits (some fast-breeding animal), label the generations and then BF them with varying amounts of strength to figure how far back the threads were burnt out by working out how many generations were wiped.

About Semi, one thing that occurred to me would be to use compulsion once on her to get her to tell them what she was scared of and then use it against her, to extract more pertinent info. Presumably The Vengeance of GLoD would be #1 on Semi's list but say if #2 was spiders or being force-fed broccoli, they could use that info to force her to tell them more. This seems a better way to do it than random, unfocussed waterboarding or taking the risk of her subverting anybody who had to be her Sul'dam or bonded her as warder. 

[Mr Ares]

Mr Ares, you are like Wikipedia.

I can assure, not everyone can edit my posts. Just mods, admis, and anyone who thinks to bribe Luckers with half a can of Fosters.

 

You do not discuss or debate.

You are not interested in discussion or debate. You do not care about the facts.

 

RJ must have developed it through the books

You say he must, but can provide no evidence to support your assertion. You think balefire changed, that's just your feeling. Not evidence. hence you not caring about debate. Balefire is as useful as it ever was. It is just dangerous, hence it has to be used with care.

 

My grandfather lost his arm in world war two. It drastically changed his quality of life.

You are talking about a presumably sane individual over the long term. Rand is an insane individual over the very short term. Maybe after a few weeks of struggling to get dressed, he'll mention how much he misses that hand. His thoughts are right after it happened.

 

What happened to our love? =(

That is our love.

 

Lets just say you're an intelligent reader who remembers Rand as being a character you liked

Not that hard, I only finished my re-read a couple of weeks ago.

 

There is a word for this, its called empathy.

So you're saying you can only bring yourself to empathise with "nice" characters. Rand learning the sword, Rand winning, you can empathise. Rand losing? He's lost you. You only empathise with characters it's easy to empathise with, so Rand's increasing insaity drives you away.

 

There is a certain percentage of readers who understand that, but were mystified as to why it wasn't put forward as an option.

But you are not one of them. You admit you are aware of Rand's refusal to kill women. Rand doesn't kill women, so any solution that involves killing a woman is, to him, no solution at all. We've had that character trait stressed enough. Your point comes down to you understanding why it wasn't used, but still being of the opinion that you should have been told why it wasn't used even though you already knew. You want the hand-holding, the spoon-feeding. You want to be told, "I don't kill women. No balefire." It's not enough that it's implicit in the scene. You need it explicit. There is no obvious get out, because we know why he cannot use balefire. You admit that you know that. So why do you need him to tell you what you already know?

 

That's not even an argument.

What you said wasn't an argument. A lot of people still like Rand, so how is he "unlikeable"? And you say nothing to justfy him being a "non-sensical characiture of a real person." Him being insane doesn't make him that. Unless you think the mentally ill are charicatures of real people, and non-sensical.

 

Rand doesn't do anything the reader would expect him to like dealing with the Asha'man and Taim.

Or Cleansing the Taint or making a truce with the Seanchan... wait, he did the former, and tried the latter. So you're getting bent out of shape because he isn't doing what you want him to do. No matter how much sense what he does makes, you still don't want him to do it.

 

If by having my hand held you mean reading a well written series that focuses on character development, and explains the motivations of said characters than yes that's exactly what I'm looking for.

No, by having your hand held I mean being told explicitly that Rand doesn't kill women, so balefire is off the menu, when we already know that and there is no need for us to be told again. This scene was well written, it shows us Rand's insanity better than many previous scenes, and we understand Rand's motivation here. You admit that you understand the motivation - that Rand doesn't kill women. You get that. So what is your problem? It's utterly non-sensical. You want RJ to tell you that Rand doesn't kill women. Even though you know it. Why?

 

Only Cads or Nynyeave would have known in that scene, well other than Rand anyway. Still, either of them could have mentioned it.

Cadsuane has already warned Rand off using balefire. If Nynaeve knows about balefire's ability to change the past, and doesn't know about Rand's aversion to killing women, she still understands the value of keeping a Chosen a hostage. She was also just told that Rand isn't that bothered about the loss of the hand, so saying "you could get it back" makes no sense.

 

Having Rand's hand blown off was hardly the most logical way for the plot to go.

Not necessarily his hand, but the injury makes perfect sense. And the hand went for thematic reasons as well.

 

That's why a sop explaining why Balefire wasn't used would have helped me

But you know why.

 

No one of any note is killed in the WoT, period.

You started with no-one at all, then it's no-one of note. If I found someone of note, you'd move the goalposts again. "Name a ta'veren who was killed." Or similar.

 

Not side characters we are not emotionally attached to.

What about side-characters we are attached to? There have been a few of them. In fact, you list Olver, Thom, Juilin, Lan, so this must be acceptable. So we have Ingtar, Aram, Reanne Corly, Vandene. Furthermore, I fail to see why number of character deaths is in any way meaningful. There are other, better ways to get the same effect. Death, in and of itself, isn't very interesting. Death as part of a character arc can be. In Angel, a main character dies in the final episode. Had it come in his first appearance, we wouldn't have cared. Coming as it does at the end, when we see this broken shell of a man with nothing left to live for die, that is something we care about. In ASoIaF, having a Direwolf massacre the entire Stark family in Bran's first chapter wouldn't have affected us as much as seeing them, and having some of them die later. Watching minor characters die works, because we see the effects on characters we care about. Seeing a Maiden die might not move us, but it might move Rand, and his being moved is what moves us. Rand's continued sufferings serve a point, and make for far better reading than just killing him. Or for a series of triumphs with no setbacks. It is not about who dies, but about the effect on the survivors.

 

We wanted to see him die he was an ass.

So we cared. Hatred is as important as love. Watching the hero triumph and the villain get his comeuppance are both important. You contradict yourself when you say we had no attachment to these characters. We also see the effects on the living. Rolan might not matter to you (although I'm not sure everyone agrees), but we see him killed by Perrin, despite being a good guy, and Faile decides not to tell Perrin for his own sake. Rolan deserved better than that.

 

but any of them coming back was cheesy and cheapened the books in which they died.

But it was always the plan that they would come back, and was hinted at a early as book 1. It wasn't cheesy, nor did it cheapen things. It just made them harder.

 

Play with fire and you get burned.

Don't learn how to make it and you freeze. You can think up any number of nasty things Moggy could do, but it changes nothing. As I said, there was a risk there, but the rewards outweighed it. The Chosen might know a mllion weaves the Light don't. Kill a Chosen, that doesn't change. Interrogate one, and it does. Now they only have half a million weaves, or fewer. And bear in mind Moggy was a coward. Her going around on a slaughter spree was unlikely.

 

Balefire is not a literary blunder - it a plot device that has changed during the course of the story.

How?

 

Even if Rand's hand wasn't an issue...killing her still makes a world of sense. Women can't teach men...remember the fish teaching birds to swim?

Killing off Semi makes no sense. And she can't teach Rand how to use the Power...what about Cads or Nynaeve? What about learning things other than the Power?

[Alternate34]

Several reasons not to use balefire on Semi:

 

(1) Balefire harms the pattern.  Semi isn't ta'veren, but she is pretty important in the pattern considering all she has done.

 

(2) The light has rarely had Forsaken in captivity.  Everytime they have, they gain great benefits.  Please open your mind as well.  The benefits may expand beyond learning weaves.  As of now, the light has little information on the DO's plans.  A captured leader under the DO could give some hints.  If Semi knows that Rand is insane, the symptoms he has, she may have an idea on how his madness may be addressed.

 

(3) Rand does not like to harm women.  He has softened a bit on this, but he still hates harming women.

 

(4) Rand is really unsure of his grasp on the One Power.  It is one reason why he had his hand blown off.

 

Several reasons why Rand's hand being blown off makes literary sense:

 

(1) It weakens Rand further.  This seems like a big duh point.  The last battle has to be exciting.  Rand missing a hand makes him weaker.  This also applies to his eyes. 

 

Many complain that the shadow seems to be losing.  How can you make that complaint and also assert that Rand should never have lost his hand?  Also, how can people complain that no main characters die and therefore the story is less touching when the MAIN CENTRAL character is hacked down and beat up?  Why does that not satisfy your bloodlust for main characters dying?  Is it really just that someone must die?  Losing a hand is just as permanent as dying.

 

(2) It demonstrates Rand's change.  He has become infinitely hard.  He has trained himself since the beginning of the series to be immune to pain.  It has taken a long time.  He was whipped pretty badly when kidnapped.  He has been wounded a lot.  It has been a long process that could only be demonstrated with the unthinkable, that a man could have his hand blown off and he would essentially shrug it off.  There is no better statement of his coldness and obsession with duty.

 

(3) It continues the parallel to Tyr.

 

(4) When the characters that you liked become more unlikeable, that makes great literature.  Easy literature is making a likeable character and they never change, external forces just strengthen their resolve and they only become better.  Great literature is taking a character and making you like them and then watch them encounter the world and having the world change them.  Watch them struggle with not only outside forces, but what the outside forces change inside of them. 

 

Rand was shoved into a role of great power.  He encountered many who would control him.  He has seen his life goals change from herding sheep to a duty that he absolutely MUST NOT FAIL.  What happens when you fail at raising sheep?  Not nearly as much as failing to defeat the Dark One.  In the face of that, losing a hand isn't a big deal unless it stops you from your duty.  Rand changed the world, but the world also changes Rand and since the world kind of sucks, it doesn't change him for the better.  In reaction, Rand becomes more tyranical and less compassionate because of the world. 

 

I sympathize with Rand more as he becomes harder.  Responsibility is hard (you know, duty is heavier than a mountain yada yada).  He faces a duty heavier than any other and he faces many who would seemingly oppose that duty with trivialities aside from right and wrong.  I feel sad for him because he has lost a lot and taken beatings.  At the same time, I feel anger for some of his actions, for his not being able to see a way out aside from his own.  I feel anger that he won't trust others with his burden.  That is what makes good writing.  Not Rand is a swordsman and wielder of the One Power and he just becomes more awesome as he overcomes dangers.

[Wingendosering]

I understand everything you said.  And I also like Rand more as time goes on, not less.  However, my point is that the thought should have at least occurred to him, because the advantages of keeping her are equal to the reasons for her death.  I'll just rally some off quickly to match yours.

 

1)  Balefire in small amounts will not unravel the Pattern beyond repair.  As a man who cannot fail, giving him back his hand when he's an accomplished blademaster can only be a good thing.

 

2)  A captured enemy leader can give alot of information, but as the queen of torture, it's unlikely many things will be able to convince her to reveal anything at all.  Finding out about the forsaken getting spun out again would be nice, but there is no guarantee of knowledge here.  Everytime they capture a forsaken they escape (at least, Rand thinks Asmo escaped).  What if Semi escapes and kills a bunch of people on the way?  What if she captures and tortures somebody close to Rand (like Min, or even Nynaeve)?

 

3)  Rand not harming women is one of the biggest flaws in this series.  Don't get me wrong, I love these books, but if Rand was really as unfeeling as RJ wanted us to believe, he would have blown her to smithereens, because he wouldn't care about not hurting women anymore.  He's not as unfeeling as he appears if he's still unable to kill women.

 

4)  Killing one of the Dreadlords and potential generals in TG before she can hurt any more people is a huge incentive.  Killing an enemy general just makes sense to me.  I do understand your points, I really do...but why wouldn't Rand want to weaken the opposition, when as you said, he cannot fail?

 

Literary Reasons:

 

1)  I never said the story was less interesting because nobody dies.  I simply agreed that nobody we care about dies, but I didn't say it was a bad thing.  To make TG more interesting maybe they should consider taking out a general of good though...Mat would cripple them both because he's battle savvy, and because of the Horn being up for grabs again.  How does capturing/killing Semi make the enemy stronger for TG?

 

2)  Not killing Semi only shows that Rand hasn't changed enough in six books.  It's this contradiction that drives people who think she should die wild.  If he's unfeeling enough to not care about lising a hand, then he should be able to overcome killing women.  If he can't overcome killing women, then he shouldn't be unfeeling enough to not miss his hand.  It's an endless circle that automatically proves he is not as cold and unfeeling as he's supposed to be.  Killing Semi would prove he's changed from the moral-bound man who couldn't defend himself against Lanfear.

 

3)  Paralleling different characters from literature is all well and good, but at some point saying "this series is amazing because the main character is exactly the same as another character from way back when" becomes a bad thing.  Again, I like the similarities between RJ's story and classic myths, but at some point your character has to think for himself instead of doing things that don't suit his personality just to make him recognizable to the reader.

 

4)  As you said, Rand cannot fail.  What better way to show he understands that then to show him going against his number one, ultimate, powerful, never-broken rule?  (Don't hurt women)

[Alternate34]

Absolutely, Wingendosering.  That is why I don't understand why people complain about it.  It could go either way and would make sense either way.  At that point, why make a huge deal about it.  It is at the discretion of the author to develop the story as long as they don't go off of the deep end which in this case, RJ obviously hasn't. 

 

People act like this is some travesty that he doesn't balefire and get a hand back.  It makes sense.  There are reasons for his actions one way or the other, and Rand made a decision one way.  It reveals what is at the core of his character.  He still doesn't want to hurt women.  He still values the information he can get from an enemy operative.  He thinks he is powerful enough (or his people are powerful enough) to get some info or at least hold Semi.  He isn't obviously wrong and it isn't obviously out of character.  Debating it is fine.  Saying it has ruined the story, that is something else entirely.

 

And to add to the debate.  Rand not caring is different than Rand being hard.  If he blew away Semi, it would be because he was insane not hard.  He is still sane enough (at times) to follow his rules.  But that is all he has is his rules.  Rules and justice are without compassion.  He is shaping up to be like Galad in a way.  This also flows in nicely with his parallel to Tyr.

[Jemlin]

 

Aviendha is a huge bother.  Jordan pulled off all sorts of weird reasons to put her closer to Rand.  Sharing his bedchamber made no sense for any reason besides making them fall in love.  And once she becomes pregnant she just gets tossed off to the side.  She plays her role well up until book 7, but then things go downhill.  He sends her off to accompany others as a side-character and again, we end up feeling she's just been pushed off with no real future in mind...

 

 

Aviendha, pregnant?

Thats news to me........

 

Anyways, I think the better question of this topic should be "Why do None of the readers understand Balefire?

 

We are tossing around our ideals, saying "They should use it for this, fo rthat, for blah blah" and some are not giving credit to how it is viewed in the book.  If during the War of Power, when the Dark One was more free from his Prison than he is currently and there was more chaos and evil, that BOTH sides should choose to not use it....and even NOW the Forsaken are hesitant...then shouldn't we understand that it can't be viewed as a tool to get something back?  Loss of a hand might be harsh, but Rand has lost and suffered more than that...and folks are forgetting that he still has impared eye sight that Nyn is afraid to heal.

 

Rand is symbolic of the land, and if you think about it, in the current state of chaos and diposed/killed/missing rulers, the "Land" has assuredly had its hand cut off.

[magnutz]

I think the original post was forgotten somewhere along the way. To some of us Balefire comes across  as confusing. To my (and the rest of us) eternal delight we have some people who just love to lay down the law regarding this. I will re-read the first 5 books again alongside book 8 which I am currently leafing through and hunt for what made me think about Balefire they way I do. When and if I find what I will look for I will post it. Then we can discuss that and hopefully Ares can discuss that instead of just correcting it and prove it to be wrong. Faugh! :)

[Mr. Micawber]

 

Aviendha is a huge bother.  Jordan pulled off all sorts of weird reasons to put her closer to Rand.  Sharing his bedchamber made no sense for any reason besides making them fall in love.  And once she becomes pregnant she just gets tossed off to the side.  She plays her role well up until book 7, but then things go downhill.  He sends her off to accompany others as a side-character and again, we end up feeling she's just been pushed off with no real future in mind...

 

 

Aviendha, pregnant?

Thats news to me........

 

Anyways, I think the better question of this topic should be "Why do None of the readers understand Balefire?

 

We are tossing around our ideals, saying "They should use it for this, fo rthat, for blah blah" and some are not giving credit to how it is viewed in the book.  If during the War of Power, when the Dark One was more free from his Prison than he is currently and there was more chaos and evil, that BOTH sides should choose to not use it....and even NOW the Forsaken are hesitant...then shouldn't we understand that it can't be viewed as a tool to get something back?  Loss of a hand might be harsh, but Rand has lost and suffered more than that...and folks are forgetting that he still has impared eye sight that Nyn is afraid to heal.

 

Rand is symbolic of the land, and if you think about it, in the current state of chaos and diposed/killed/missing rulers, the "Land" has assuredly had its hand cut off.

 

Moiraine gives a fairly concise explanation that touches on the major points, and from RJ has told us, about half the channelers in the world were pro-Shadow during the First War.

 

Now, Moiraine says that people used it all the time, for a while. The problem is that using balefire on the scale they were using is like burning threads from middle of a piece of cloth; they came very close to the point where the cloth could simply be torn apart.

 

Which would have shattered existence for both sides.

 

Now, the interesting thing for me is that the Big Guy's future plans for the world most probably do not lend themselves to the continued existence of homo sapiens. I'm a little surprised the Big Guy didn't just order his guys to go all out, in hope that existence merely collapses. Perhaps he doesn't want some measly mortals to steal his kill, as it were.

[VinedC]

These points may have been stated before, but just a couple quick thoughts on the subject:

 

1: there have been several arguments stating that using a small amount of balefire will not damage the pattern in the same way burning out cities has in the past. This may normally be true, but we are talking about Rand (the strongest T'averen since Hawkwin, probably ever) and one of the few surviving forsaken, a major general-figure for the DO. I would imagine that caution would be best when dealing with people this important to the pattern, especially when the fabric of reality seems to be slipping as much as it is anyway. Rand has probably just been lucky he hasnt done some serious damage with his prior use of balefire (such as saving Mat and Avi), as he is MORE important to the pattern than any city could be. Even the best intentioned balefire probably isnt a great idea.

 

2. this thread is now 8 pages long. If we have spent this much time discussing it, do you really think Rand would have had enough time to discuss it with his 'counselors' and come to any sort of decision before it was too late to balefire anyway? Besides the destroying the pattern issue, the matters of getting info from Semi need be weighed as well.

[Arkelias]

I went back and re-read the entire thread, and have found a curious shift in my opinion.  I wanted Rand to balefire Semi, because I think it sucks that he lost his hand.  Still, Rand losing his hand is part of the story that RJ wanted to tell whether I like it or not.

 

Given that, I have to admit that Mr. Ares is right.  It doesn't make sense that RJ would have mentioned balefire, or that Rand would have used it to kill Semi.  So, my position is definitely wrong here.  The scene is fine as it is.

 

It's still my least favorite in the series.  I still hate where RJ has taken Rand, and this definitely caps the negatives that have been inflicted on him.  But, they are part of the story and I'm going to try to reserve judgement until after the last three books are written.

 

Hopefully in those texts Rand will find redemption, and will once again be a character I can like and enjoy.  I tend to doubt it, but then I guess I have a right to be skeptical given the last five books =/

 

Anyway, for those checking this is me admitting I was wrong.  Thanks to those who changed my opinion, even Mr. Ares.  Don't let it go to your head though.  I'm still around to oppose you in other threads!

[Bob T Dwarf]

Now, for a related question:

 

Back in the Prologue to The Eye of the World, supposedly believing that he had killed everyone he ever loved, why didn't LTT balefire himself and bring them all back?

[Mr. Micawber]

Now, for a related question:

 

Back in the Prologue to The Eye of the World, supposedly believing that he had killed everyone he ever loved, why didn't LTT balefire himself and bring them all back?

 

I think RJ answered this. He didn't balefire himself, he essentially turned himself into a SimCity 2000 editor, and blew himself up into a mountain.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yes.  That is what he did.

 

My question was, why didn't he balefire himself instead?

[Mr. Micawber]

Yes.  That is what he did.

 

My question was, why didn't he balefire himself instead?

 

Because LTT was a major jerkhole, probably.

[Nightstrike]

Balefiring yourself leads to a huge paradox. Is it even possible?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Probably not.

 

He could have engaged Ishy in a balefire duel and committed suicide that way.

 

If there was ever a character in this series who had a compelling reason to try to have something undone by balefire it was LTT.  Yet he didn't even try to do that.

 

Kinda strange.

[Blackhoof]

Weaves can't effect the Weaver, as evidenced by Aes Sedai's lack of ability to lift or heal themselves.

 

LTT had just not only found out that his entire family was dead, but that he had killed them; he was horrified and shocked and distraught at massive levels. He Traveled to somewhere and turned into a mountain. He didn't have the rationalisation to think about it; he just blew himself up.

 

Ps: the SimCity 2000 comment cracked me up.  ;D

[magnutz]

Balefiring yourself leads to a huge paradox. Is it even possible?

 

If you balefire your reflection in a mirror that is a ter'angreal that mirrors you 100% then yes and the paradox will be bad. You will shift from being to not being for eternity.

[Nightstrike]

Balefiring yourself (if it had been possible at all) would remove you from the Pattern back to some time before you balefired yourself. If you didn't exist, then you couldn't have balefired yourself. If this had been possible, then I think it might "unravel the Pattern". But I don't think would have been possible for LTT to Balefire himself.