Why Do None of the Characters Understand Balefire?

[Orange Fescue]

If theres one thing ive learnt its that RJ never puts anything in by accident. I bet he knew eackly how powerful balefire was when he wrote it andf thats how he intended it to be

 

I agree and that's why I've been wondering something while reading this thread. What if RJ created balefire and its dire effects with the intention that Rand eventually use it during the last battle and unravel the pattern so it could be remade?

 

By the time the AoL comes around again on the wheel, the bore has to be gone. Not patched but gone as if it had never been drilled. Herid Fel said/wrote that debris had to be cleared away before something new could be built. Whenever I've read about that statement in a thread, people have agreed that the debris Fel meant was the failing patch LTT stuffed into the bore. What if the debris is the damaged pattern itself? Maybe Rand needs to use balefire and the choeden kal to burn away enough threads that reality will come apart and the Wheel can do a complete reset on the pattern.

 

Although I've never done any weaving, I have done some crocheting. With some errors, you can ignore them. With others, you just have to unravel what you're making, roll your yarn back into balls, and start over.

[Mr Ares]

Rand could have gotten his hand back no prob by blasting Semirhage (why exactly hasn't he killed her again?)

The reasons for not killing her far outweigh the reasons for killing her. He doesn't care about the hand, he can't kill women, she is a valuable source of intelligence...It was explained at the time. He doesn't care about the hand.

and after toasting Rahvin, you would think Rand would know Morgase was alive and have people looking for her.

Why? He thought Rahvin killed her 24 hours ago, so he should automatically assume that his balefire went back a day, for no readily apparent reason? If she was alive, why wouldn't she come forward? Instead, he seems convinced of her death still, hence giving the throne to Elayne.

Although I'm not sure Nynaeve and Elayne understand Balefire, they could have attached Birgitte to the Pattern again by hitting Moghedien with it...

They'd need to find her first.

 

Osan'gar...how many chances did he have to balefire Rand?

He was set to watch Rand, not kill him. And he was around when heavy balefire use amost destroyed reality. He wouldn't use it normally, none of them would.

 

My first reaction upon standing up after being fireballed by Semi would have been to balefire her.

You are not Rand. Such an act would make no sense, coming from Rand.

 

As it stands we're left asking ourselves, "Hey, meathead, using balefire would clearly solve your problem. Why don't you use it?"

No, we're not. Because Rand's inability to harm women has been stressed repeatedly, and we are told then and there that Rand doesn't care that the hand is gone. Why should a man who cannot bring himself to kill women kill a woman to get back something he doesn't care about? It makes no sense.

 

Do any of the women know it? I wouldn't put it past Nynaeve or Cadsuane to do it regardless of what he wanted.

Nynaeve has used balefire, once, but she might not still remember how to do it. Cadsuane warned Rand against using it in ACoS, so even if she did know, it's doubtful she would use it.

 

In the writing world that's called 'hanging a lantern' on something, so the reader knows your character is aware of something.

Inconceivable though it might seem, I don't think that term means what you think it means. It is used to highlight the shortcomings of the plot, but that isn't relevant here. Because it is quite clear that Rand doesn't care about the hand. There is nothing here that needs lampshading. "He lost a hand, but there's nothing to do about it, so he's left it behind already." That right there answers it. Why should we have Rand saying, "You know that hand I'm not that bothered about losing? I could get it back if I was willing to kill a woman even though I'm not." There's nothing that needs lampshading, because it was actually addressed.

 

(everytime I read Alanna bonding him, I wish he'd grow up and smack her if not balefire her to undo the bond).

That's not at all heavy handed.

 

However, that still does not explain his ignorance with Morgase...he has no way of knowing how far back he burnt Rahvin's thread.

There's still a pretty huge gap between the two. Hours of difference.

 

even they use it willingly.

They only use it sparingly. Rahvin was fighting for his life. Moghedien used it on her nemesis. Ishy wants to destroy the Pattern anyway, and was going all out to kill Rand (who was armed with Callandor). Osan'gar planned to use it at the Cleansing, but before, in Cairhien, he didn't need it. A lesser weapon could get the job done, or so he hoped. He shouldn't even have been killing Rand then.

 

Was this really necessary?

Yes. Both for the parallels with Tyr, and showing Rand's mental state (he no longer cares about his hand). And there is no way to fix the problem, not for Rand. Nor is there even a problem.

 

As no one ever dies in the WoT

Except for all the people who did, you know, die.

 

There are some really big risks there.

Outweighed by the rewards. Rand learnt more during the time he was with Asmo than in any other equivalent period. The girls learnt a huge amount from Moghedien.

 

Though, I think the big reason balefire was given this limitation is that RJ realized it was the only way for characters to truly die in his series. Can't ever have a forsaken actually die now can we?

We've had five die and not come back, and only two died of balefire (a third might have, but his cause of death remains unknown).

 

He invented THE bomb and it got out of hand.

No, he invented THE bomb, and characters justifiably reluctant to use it.

 

And why didn't he check to see if Morgase was still alive somewhere?

If she was alive, she'd come forward, surely? Why look for her, she's dead.

 

Balefire seems to be a simple weave since it was discovered without guidance. (Rand against a dog during his trip to Tear, Nynaeve against myrddraal during her/Elayne's/Egwene's trip to Tear)

Traveling and Healling, both complex weaves, were discovered without guidance.

[Blackhoof]

If theres one thing ive learnt its that RJ never puts anything in by accident. I bet he knew eackly how powerful balefire was when he wrote it andf thats how he intended it to be

 

I agree and that's why I've been wondering something while reading this thread. What if RJ created balefire and its dire effects with the intention that Rand eventually use it during the last battle and unravel the pattern so it could be remade?

 

By the time the AoL comes around again on the wheel, the bore has to be gone. Not patched but gone as if it had never been drilled. Herid Fel said/wrote that debris had to be cleared away before something new could be built. Whenever I've read about that statement in a thread, people have agreed that the debris Fel meant was the failing patch LTT stuffed into the bore. What if the debris is the damaged pattern itself? Maybe Rand needs to use balefire and the choeden kal to burn away enough threads that reality will come apart and the Wheel can do a complete reset on the pattern.

 

Although I've never done any weaving, I have done some crocheting. With some errors, you can ignore them. With others, you just have to unravel what you're making, roll your yarn back into balls, and start over.

 

 

That makes a bucketload of sense.

 

Rand: Mmmmm... I want to save evertone in the world, so i'm going to randomly Balefire stuff until the pattern unravels, killing everyone, and then the creator can make  a new pattern.

 

Somehow, your reasoning is kind of faulty.

[Wingendosering]

Rand looking for Morgase seems logical to me, especially because Rand can't stand to see women hurt.  He doesn't know when Morgase disappeared, nor does he know how far back he burnt Rahvin's thread in the pattern.  Morgase could easily be too scared to approach him or utterly lost somewhere, considering who he is.  Rand only found out the day before that she was missing and probably dead.

 

In LoC, when Rand survives Fain's assassins, two women die.  He struggles with himself and it gives the impression that if he had the man who shot the crossbows, he would balefire them to bring those two women back.  Why wouldn't he hope Morgase was alive, and do everything in his power to remove a name from his list?

 

The whole butterfly effect theory doesn't work when contemplating Balefire.  The butterfly effect involves taking an event years in the past and changing it.  Yes, naturally you're going to have a huge amount of reprecussions when your affecting that large a period of time.  Even the smallest change can mean everything over the course of years, but we're talking minutes...sometimes only seconds.  And not even a minute from several years ago....its the LAST few seconds/minute.  The only way that could possibly cause harm is if it either a) hit several people, or b) undid a major event (generally the last two minutes of one person's life won't affect this, but an example would be Taim coming to Dumai Wells), or c) you create an inconsistency in the pattern.  The chances of creating a paradox like that is so small though, when you think about a small amount of time...especially if the person its being used on has been in your sight for the minute you're erasing.

[magnutz]

If theres one thing ive learnt its that RJ never puts anything in by accident. I bet he knew eackly how powerful balefire was when he wrote it andf thats how he intended it to be

 

I agree and that's why I've been wondering something while reading this thread. What if RJ created balefire and its dire effects with the intention that Rand eventually use it during the last battle and unravel the pattern so it could be remade?

 

By the time the AoL comes around again on the wheel, the bore has to be gone. Not patched but gone as if it had never been drilled. Herid Fel said/wrote that debris had to be cleared away before something new could be built. Whenever I've read about that statement in a thread, people have agreed that the debris Fel meant was the failing patch LTT stuffed into the bore. What if the debris is the damaged pattern itself? Maybe Rand needs to use balefire and the choeden kal to burn away enough threads that reality will come apart and the Wheel can do a complete reset on the pattern.

 

Although I've never done any weaving, I have done some crocheting. With some errors, you can ignore them. With others, you just have to unravel what you're making, roll your yarn back into balls, and start over.

 

I hold RJ's writing way up high. The stories are truly wonderful. The writing skills superb. I do not, however, believe he was without flaws. He was human, and so was his editor (and all the rest who read his work before it was published). Ok, so Balefire is without flaws now, but I have just started another re-read of the books (on book eight now) and I get the feeling that Balefire as a weave has evolved through the story. It feels as if RJ made some of it up as he went and added to it or changed something that had been hinted at earlier. Sadly I have no quotes to support my opinions on this matter. Until I do it is only my feeling that guides me. :)

 

I think like this: The first book had a feeling of being just one book. RJ could have stopped the story there. Rand had fought the Dark One and killed him. That was later changed and instead of having fought the Dark One he had merely fought one of the Forsaken. Weird. I get the same feeling when reading about Balefire - it changes through the story to become more and more dangerous and therefore restricted. Much like too powerful features in online gaming. If any of you played (or still play) Diablo II (and LoD) you might remember the skill "Whirlwind" which made the barbarian a very fearsome character. The power that was decided to lessen that power as it was too "good". The same happens in ongoing literary series. The author realizes that his/her stuff are too potent/powerful... and subsequently changes them to prevent the story from spinning out of control. It is like the opposite of Deus ex Machina. Instead of introducing an object/character/whatnot to the reader who/which alters the odds for the Hero it goes the other way. The God of the Story takes powers away by making them corrupting, infecting, etc. Balefire as an "object" has that feel to it. ;)

 

As to the original question I'd say that the characters lack of understanding Balefire stems from the author. If you have an evolving object it will confuse the story. My theory. ;)

[OptimusPrime]

Balefire is definitely a plot device created from the beginning. An original aspect of the series. It is supposed to be the way it is.

[Blackhoof]

If theres one thing ive learnt its that RJ never puts anything in by accident. I bet he knew eackly how powerful balefire was when he wrote it andf thats how he intended it to be

 

I agree and that's why I've been wondering something while reading this thread. What if RJ created balefire and its dire effects with the intention that Rand eventually use it during the last battle and unravel the pattern so it could be remade?

 

By the time the AoL comes around again on the wheel, the bore has to be gone. Not patched but gone as if it had never been drilled. Herid Fel said/wrote that debris had to be cleared away before something new could be built. Whenever I've read about that statement in a thread, people have agreed that the debris Fel meant was the failing patch LTT stuffed into the bore. What if the debris is the damaged pattern itself? Maybe Rand needs to use balefire and the choeden kal to burn away enough threads that reality will come apart and the Wheel can do a complete reset on the pattern.

 

Although I've never done any weaving, I have done some crocheting. With some errors, you can ignore them. With others, you just have to unravel what you're making, roll your yarn back into balls, and start over.

 

I hold RJ's writing way up high. The stories are truly wonderful. The writing skills superb. I do not, however, believe he was without flaws. He was human, and so was his editor (and all the rest who read his work before it was published). Ok, so Balefire is without flaws now, but I have just started another re-read of the books (on book eight now) and I get the feeling that Balefire as a weave has evolved through the story. It feels as if RJ made some of it up as he went and added to it or changed something that had been hinted at earlier. Sadly I have no quotes to support my opinions on this matter. Until I do it is only my feeling that guides me. :)

 

I think like this: The first book had a feeling of being just one book. RJ could have stopped the story there. Rand had fought the Dark One and killed him. That was later changed and instead of having fought the Dark One he had merely fought one of the Forsaken. Weird. I get the same feeling when reading about Balefire - it changes through the story to become more and more dangerous and therefore restricted. Much like too powerful features in online gaming. If any of you played (or still play) Diablo II (and LoD) you might remember the skill "Whirlwind" which made the barbarian a very fearsome character. The power that was decided to lessen that power as it was too "good". The same happens in ongoing literary series. The author realizes that his/her stuff are too potent/powerful... and subsequently changes them to prevent the story from spinning out of control. It is like the opposite of Deus ex Machina. Instead of introducing an object/character/whatnot to the reader who/which alters the odds for the Hero it goes the other way. The God of the Story takes powers away by making them corrupting, infecting, etc. Balefire as an "object" has that feel to it. ;)

 

As to the original question I'd say that the characters lack of understanding Balefire stems from the author. If you have an evolving object it will confuse the story. My theory. ;)

 

It would never have been one book. They discovered Rand could Channel; they wouldn't leave that hanging. There was so much that was unexplained or left hanging.

[magnutz]

Many stories end like this. Hero finds big potential within her/himself and vanquishes the Bad Guy. What happens next is resolved in the epilogue and perhaps later in sequels. I believe (regardless what RJ has said on the subject) that it would have ended with EotW if the book hadn't sold enough. There was a very plain way out of it, eventhough Rand had just discovered that he could use the force.

 

It is probably true that RJ didn't include much that haven't had (or will have) impact on the story but I refuse to believe that he had it ALL figured out as he set out. He may have had 500TB of background material but some things still behave as if RJ forgot something or decided to add something (or subtract) to further his story. I believe he said somewhere that he put the major events down on the timeline where he wanted them to happen. The space inbetween he wrote as it came to him. Wonderful stuff all of it but some of it "doesn't wash".

 

This is not a discussion on whether RJ was a bad writer or not - he wasn't bad he was bloody brilliant - it is a discussion about things that are unclear and how we as readers interpret this. Some of us want to discuss the "flaws" and the reason for them. Others rush to defend the Creator. Ying vs Yang, Good vs Evil, Tall vs Short... It is, as always, so. What this ammounts to is not really a discussion, imo, it is a battle of "Who's right & who's wrong."

 

Since the story is the longest ongoing mega fantasy tale ever I seriously doubt RJ had it all mapped out when he set off way back in the 80s. Therefore I feel my arguments about Balefire changing/evolving and thus creating confusion are well founded. And don't reply stating that RJ always did things 100% according to plan. He didn't, no one does. If he got a brilliant idea one Saturday night as he sat drinking his favorite red wine and decided to implement it he might have done so knowing that it would upset one or two of his already existing plots/ideas. Oh well.

 

Balefire is a great plot device, an awesome weapon, but not without plot holes in it. I think. ;)

 

Edited for typos

[OptimusPrime]

Balefire is a great plot device, an awesome weapon, but not without plot holes in it. I think

 

No plot holes, just unpredictable outcomes. There are realistic reasons for why only a few people know it. Rand doesnt teach anyone, neither have the Forsaken that we know of. Of course RJ will have had to create a reason for only certain people to know it, that applies to everything. The reasons are plot related.

[Arkelias]

That was a great post Magnutz.  I completely agree that RJ was brilliant, and he created one of the best fantasy epics of all time.  However, he was human.  He did make mistakes.  Too often people here will stretch the bounds of realism just to rationalize how something he did was not a mistake, no matter how flimsy the argument.

 

The reasons for not killing her far outweigh the reasons for killing her. He doesn't care about the hand, he can't kill women, she is a valuable source of intelligence...It was explained at the time. He doesn't care about the hand.

 

This is completely unrealistic.  I don't care who you are.  If your hand is blown off you're going to feel it, and you're going to mourn its loss.  RJ made a great point of how little Rand cared about the loss of his hand.

 

This further removes Rand as a real character, and makes us empathize with him even less.  None of his emotional responses make sense in the last several books, and he's stopped being a person and started being a cliche.  He's become a petulant martyr.

 

You are not Rand. Such an act would make no sense, coming from Rand.

 

I'm not sure you understood my point Ares, so I'll elaborate.  As I explained in the post you quoted from I don't believe Rand would have killed Semi for any reason.  What I do think is that your reader understands that Rand could have used Balefire to do so.  Yet this isn't discussed in the book leaving the reader to wonder if it was an oversight.

 

No, we're not. Because Rand's inability to harm women has been stressed repeatedly, and we are told then and there that Rand doesn't care that the hand is gone. Why should a man who cannot bring himself to kill women kill a woman to get back something he doesn't care about? It makes no sense.

 

In making all these things true RJ has made his main protagonist and unlikable and non-sensical characiture of a real person.  No one gets their hand blown off and goes, "Eh, no biggie."  Especially not when they are a blademaster.

 

As usual you are missing the point.  As the reader I know there is an easy solution to this problem.  I feel the author should have addressed why Rand didn't do this.  He could easily have had one of the Asha'man suggest using balefire, and then a quick paragraph on why Rand and/or Cadsuane thought it was a bad idea. 

 

Inconceivable though it might seem, I don't think that term means what you think it means. It is used to highlight the shortcomings of the plot, but that isn't relevant here.

 

Rand having his hand blown off and not repaired by balefire is a shortcoming of the plot, which is why I suggested hanging a lantern on it.  So *gasp* I guess I do understand what the term means.

 

How hard would it have been for LTT to suggest Rand use balefire.  "You could have the hand back," LTT crowed madly in the back of Rand's mind. Rand could still decide not to do it, but then the reader's inevitable question of why not use balefire is answered. 

 

Now obviously a number of people considered the possibility that balefire could have been used as is evidenced by this thread.  If RJ could have allayed our issues with a single paragraph don't you think that would have improved the novel? 

 

It wouldn't have hurt it for people like you who don't have an issue, but it would have improved it for people like myself who do.  This is a simple way he could have improved the novel for a number of his readers.  How is that bad exactly?

 

You are without a doubt the biggest fanboy I've ever met by the way Ares.  RJ could have thrown some garbage on a plate and you'd defend it vehemently as the best work ever.  You probably even like New Spring.

 

Except for all the people who did, you know, die

 

Point to a main character we care about that's died.  Even one.  The only people of note that have been killed in 12 books are the forsaken, and the majority of them have come back. 

 

I don't care about one of the hundreds of Aes Sedai RJ introduced to the plot dying.  There is no emotional impact there.  Nor did we care when Aram died.  If Olver or Elayne or Lan died it would have a much different impact.

 

Now do you see what I'm talking about?  Probably not, but I guess that's not really surprising.

 

Outweighed by the rewards. Rand learnt more during the time he was with Asmo than in any other equivalent period. The girls learnt a huge amount from Moghedien.

 

What if Mog had gotten free and killed Elayne?  Or Nyneave?  This didn't occur, because as I've mentioned no one dies in the Wheel of Time.  Keeping a forsaken prisoner is a HUGE risk, whether you are willing to acknowledge it or not.

 

Pointing out how the characters weren't burned by this doesn't remove the fact that the risk was there.  The forsaken understand weaves and have powers that people in the current age can't even conceive of.

 

Given that you don't know what they can do, how is it safe to keep them prisoner?  They could have any number of powers that would allow them to escape, and you'd never know it until after the fact.

[Mr Ares]

Rand only found out the day before that she was missing and probably dead.

Exactly, the day before. It's quite a jump to imagine his balefire went back that far. Furthermore, if he undid her death, where would she be? Where should he even start looking?

 

I think like this: The first book had a feeling of being just one book. RJ could have stopped the story there.

Theoretically, yes. Likewise, Brandon Sanderson could have left the world of Mistborn after The Final Empire. Sure, the mists aren't gone, but the Lord Ruler is dead. Same here. Plenty of loose ends. Ishy was never supposed to be Shai'tan, although we were led to think that. There were hints. It wasn't something that changed, it was something that was revealed. Balefire hasn't changed either. It was always dangerous.

 

(regardless what RJ has said on the subject)

See, if you just don't care what the author has to say, there's really no help for you. It might have had to end after one book, but it was never supposed to. It was always supposed to carry on, tell the rest of the story.

 

This is completely unrealistic. I don't care who you are. If your hand is blown off you're going to feel it, and you're going to mourn its loss. RJ made a great point of how little Rand cared about the loss of his hand.

The whole bloody point is to ram home that Rand is insane. I don't care who you are, I've seen people not care about missing limbs. Sometimes shock, sometimes other things. It can happen.

 

He's become a petulant martyr.

He's become an insane tyrant.

 

I'm not sure you understood my point

I did, it's just it was garbage.

What I do think is that your reader understands that Rand could have used Balefire to do so. Yet this isn't discussed in the book leaving the reader to wonder if it was an oversight.

Why would the reader think that, when Rand's apathy towards loosing the limb and his refusal to kill women are both very clear? "You know, I could use balefire to get back that hand I don't care about losing, if I was willing to kill a woman, which I'm not." Is there a way to write it without looking forced? It doesn't need to be in there. It's not an oversight. There is absolutely no need for such a monologue, or conversation, or anything, unless you have a desire to lead the reader by the hand through absolutely every decision that the chracters make.

 

In making all these things true RJ has made his main protagonist and unlikable and non-sensical characiture of a real person.

No, he hasn't.

No one gets their hand blown off and goes, "Eh, no biggie."

I assure you, they do. Blademaster or no. I've known people who considered having a leg blown off a minor inconvenience. It might not be healthy, but Rand isn't supposed to be the poster boy for mental health.

 

I feel the author should have addressed why Rand didn't do this.

There was no need, unless you insist on having your hand held all the time. He could have done it, but there was no reason to.

He could easily have had one of the Asha'man suggest using balefire

But the Asha'man don't know balefire, quite possibly haven't even heard of it. 

 

Rand having his hand blown off and not repaired by balefire is a shortcoming of the plot

No it's not, it's perfectly reasonable and in character - the most logical way for the plot to go, in fact. So there is no shortcoming to the plot, so there is nothing to hang the lampshade on, so I'm not sure you do understand it. Rand was never going to use balefire. So the only thing you could have done is make it bloody obvious to everyone why balefire wasn't being used, when RJ has said he does credit his readers with some intelligence. This just treats them like idiots.

 

the reader's inevitable question of why not use balefire is answered.

But there is no inevitable question. Rand's decision not to use balefire should be clear to anyone familiar with his character. Why not use balefire? Rand doesn't kill women. The readers don't need to be told this. They are not idiots (well, most of them aren't).

 

Now obviously a number of people considered the possibility that balefire could have been used as is evidenced by this thread.

People fail to grasp all sorts of bloody obvious things. I fail to see that as a reason to dumb down the books unnecessarily.

If RJ could have allayed our issues with a single paragraph don't you think that would have improved the novel?

No. Even if there was a good way to write it, it would have cheapened it.

 

but it would have improved it for people like myself who do.

But you admit that Rand doesn't kill women. You are aware of that. So your issue is that RJ should tell you again that Rand doesn't kill women. Why? Are you incapable of taking that fact in? Clearly not. So why do you think it so important that RJ tell you things you already know? Why do you need that repetition?

 

RJ could have thrown some garbage on a plate and you'd defend it vehemently as the best work ever.

I've read better authors.

You probably even like New Spring.

A lot of people like New Spring.

 

Except for all the people who did, you know, die

Point to a main character we care about that's died.

Stop moving the goaposts.

The only people of note that have been killed in 12 books are the forsaken

Define "person of note". Pedron Niall? Eamon Valda? Couladin? Rolan? All fairly prominent people.

and the majority of them have come back.

Less than half.

 

What if Mog had gotten free and killed Elayne?

So what if she did? Being killed by the Chosen is always a risk. This way, they could make use of her, rather than just killing her, which is no use to anyone. The rewards outweigh the risks.

The forsaken understand weaves and have powers that people in the current age can't even conceive of.

Exactly why the rewards outweigh the risks. You don't know what they can do, but this is the only way to learn. Which will make you better able to face the Chosen next time. Dead men tell no tales, as the saying goes.

[MierinWru]

If your hand is blown off you're going to feel it, and you're going to mourn its loss.  RJ made a great point of how little Rand cared about the loss of his hand.

This further removes Rand as a real character, and makes us empathize with him even less.  None of his emotional responses make sense in the last several books, and he's stopped being a person and started being a cliche.  He's become a petulant martyr.

 

Yes, but wasn't that the intent? Rand was by far my favourite character initially but these days he doesn't even seem to be a sentient human being anymore. On the one hand that annoys me since some of his PoV's are just annoying to read. On the other hand... isn't that what he needs Cadsuane for? To learn to laugh and cry again? So far she hasn't been very successful in that regard but maybe she will be?

 

 

As I explained in the post you quoted from I don't believe Rand would have killed Semi for any reason.  What I do think is that your reader understands that Rand could have used Balefire to do so.  Yet this isn't discussed in the book leaving the reader to wonder if it was an oversight.

 

Quite honestly the possibility didn't even occur to me. Maybe it's cause I'm such a harmless liberal European but I don't agree with killing prisoners no matter what they did to you. I realize that Rand has ordered death penalty before and that the death penalty isn't questioned in Randland. But it simply didn't occur to me.

So she blew off his hand, ok. So? Is losing a hand reason enough to kill somebody?

You might argue that the fact that Semi is a Forsaken is reason enough already but... I just don't buy that. Maybe it's my general contempt towards the death penalty, I dunno. I wouldn't have found it appropriate.

 

On an sidenote, though: I found Rand losing his hand pretty unnecessary in the first place. What for? Just to have a nice lil shock moment at the end of the book?

 

As usual you are missing the point.  As the reader I know there is an easy solution to this problem.  I feel the author should have addressed why Rand didn't do this.  

 

Killing somebody is never an EASY solution. Again, it didn't even occur to me cause that'd be so out of left field.

 

Point to a main character we care about that's died.  Even one.  

 

Egwene! Ah no... she's still alive. :(

;)

The only deaths that really made me feel sorry for a main character is Perrin's family. That really was painful.

[magnutz]

It is always comforting to be told where the bears shit in the buckwheat. Mr Ares, you are like Wikipedia. I know there are facts there but I choose to treat it as crap. I have never read so many posts anywhere where someone has ALL the answers to every question posted.

 

You do not discuss or debate. You tell us what is on and what is off. Bloody annoying.

 

If you have read anything other than books about war and magazines about how right you are you might have stumbled upon more authors who create literary bloopers. So has RJ but not according to you.

 

Balefire is not a constant marvel, not a flawless creation, in my opinion. RJ must have developed it through the books - making it less useful in every book. That is the feeling I have. While RJ's writing is magical there are flaws.

 

If you feel like replying to us lesser being be creative and come up with something constructive. Don't strive to be asinine although you do a good job at it.

[Arkelias]

The whole bloody point is to ram home that Rand is insane. I don't care who you are, I've seen people not care about missing limbs. Sometimes shock, sometimes other things. It can happen.

 

My grandfather lost his arm in world war two.  It drastically changed his quality of life.  No longer was he able to dress himself, or prepare food or drive a stick shift.  I find it very difficult to understand how someone could go through such a massive loss and just not care.

 

However, I view things through the lens of my own personal experience.  It sounds like you know people who have lost limbs and not cared.  I can see how that might color your perceptions.  Can you see how my own experiences might color mine?

 

 

He's become an insane tyrant.

 

I said petualant martyr because he acts petulant (I'm thinking the scene where Darlin is declared king), and he's obviously a martyr because he's the Dragon who's doomed to die at Tarmon Gaidon.  However, you are right that he is also an insane tyrant.

 

 

I did, it's just it was garbage.

 

It hurts me when you say my point is garbage.  What happened to our love? =(

 

 

Why would the reader think that, when Rand's apathy towards loosing the limb and his refusal to kill women are both very clear? "You know, I could use balefire to get back that hand I don't care about losing, if I was willing to kill a woman, which I'm not."

 

Lets just say you're an intelligent reader who remembers Rand as being a character you liked (hard I know, but if you look back far enough you'll find the Rand who left Edmond's Field).  You liked him fighting duels with blademasters, and mastering the one power and trying to do the right thing.  There is a word for this, its called empathy.

 

So, you empathize with Rand which means that in some small way you become the character.  When his hand is blown off you are horrified.  How could something so terrible happen to Rand, you wonder.

 

So a lightbulb goes on in your head that says wait a tic, if he uses balefire he could correct this problem.  Semi is responsible for the deaths and torture of literally millions of people.  She cannot be safely captured, because she could have powers that will let her escape that our heroes know nothing about.

 

A simple bolt of balefire and all of these problems are solved.  There is a certain percentage of readers who understand that, but were mystified as to why it wasn't put forward as an option.  Say what you will this is exactly the thought that crossed my mind.

 

Had there been one little paragraph in that scene addressing it, I wouldn't have been so upset at an obvious fix to Rand's immediate problem being completely ignored.  Obviously you disagree.  That doesn't make you right, it just means your opinion is different than mine.

 

I said:

In making all these things true RJ has made his main protagonist and unlikable and non-sensical characiture of a real person.

and you replied:

No, he hasn't.

 

That's not even an argument.  Clearly a number of posters who frequent these boards no longer like Rand, as is evidenced by a large percentage of posts regarding him.  Obviously you disagreed, but once again simply saying 'nuh uh' doesn't invalidate our arguments.

 

Rand is insane.  Rand makes irrational decisions.  Rand doesn't do anything the reader would expect him to like dealing with the Asha'man and Taim.  The whole interplay between him and maidens, which was keeping him grounded, was completely remove.

 

He's angry and bitter and mean and petulant.  Add in irrational and insane, and of course he's an unlikable character.  You can try arguing otherwise, but I think its going to take a bit more than 'nuh uh' to convince us that he's not an insane, irrational prick.

 

There was no need, unless you insist on having your hand held all the time. He could have done it, but there was no reason to.

 

If by having my hand held you mean reading a well written series that focuses on character development, and explains the motivations of said characters than yes that's exactly what I'm looking for.  Nor am I alone on this.

 

I realize that only you and people who agree with you are worthy of reading the WoT Ares, but those of us who are unworthy need to have our hands held with crutches like 'empathy' and 'motivation'.

 

But the Asha'man don't know balefire, quite possibly haven't even heard of it. 

 

Good point.  They probably don't know.  Only Cads or Nynyeave would have known in that scene, well other than Rand anyway.  Still, either of them could have mentioned it.

 

 

No it's not, it's perfectly reasonable and in character - the most logical way for the plot to go, in fact.

 

Having Rand's hand blown off was hardly the most logical way for the plot to go.  Him not killing Semi was the most logical way for the plot to proceed aftwards though, that I'll agree with.

 

The thing is the whole Rand losing his hand felt contrived.  It felt like something RJ had decided long ago to work in, even though it made little sense and just made me hate Rand all the more.  It felt like kicking him when he was down for no reason other than he needs to break Rand before the end.

 

I don't like watching people get tortured, and I certainly don't enjoy reading about it for multiple books.  That's why a sop explaining why Balefire wasn't used would have helped me, because I see this as a horrifying tragic event that could have been prevented.

 

People fail to grasp all sorts of bloody obvious things. I fail to see that as a reason to dumb down the books unnecessarily.

 

Once again the fact that you have an opinion doesn't invalidate ours.  You like the series as is.  I guess I like it 'dumbed down' even though that's not what I consider this to be.

 

I've read better authors.

 

Then I would hate to see how vehemently you defend their work.

 

 

Stop moving the goaposts.

 

Quit dodging questions.  Asking another questions is part of a discussion, and its relevant to the topic we are discussing.  No one of any note is killed in the WoT, period.

 

Define "person of note". Pedron Niall? Eamon Valda? Couladin? Rolan? All fairly prominent people.

 

Someone we care about.  Rand, Mat, Perrin, Moraine, Lan, Nyneave, Egwene, Thom, Julin or Olver to name a few.  Not side characters we are not emotionally attached to.

 

Pedron Niall was the closest on your list I came to care about, but it was still a mild 'meh' when he died.  Eamon Valda?  We wanted to see him die he was an ass.  Couladin?  Why would we care when he died?  He was an antagonist bent on killing Rand.  Rolan?  I felt nothing when he died.  There was no emotional connection to any of these characters.  Why would we care that they died.

 

 

Less than half.

 

Less than half of the forsaken came back, but any of them coming back was cheesy and cheapened the books in which they died.  Four of them coming back sets the precedent that any forsaken can come back.  That makes their deaths feel pointless.

 

So what if she did? Being killed by the Chosen is always a risk. This way, they could make use of her, rather than just killing her, which is no use to anyone. The rewards outweigh the risks.

 

What if Mog got free, killed Elayne and then used a weave to make herself appear to be Elayne?  What if she replaced Egwene instead and somehow became the Amyrlin?  The point is that the forsaken have powers that the modern AS can't understand.  Play with fire and you get burned.

 

Or at least, you do in a series where villians are allowed to be realistic and hurt people.  Dead men tale no tales, but they also don't balefire their captors, get free and wreak havok.

 

[Mr. Micawber]

Ark, you know I'm in agreement with most of this already, but I just wanted to remind you that you didn't need to write the second half of this post.

 

You could have just said "why can't any of the damn villains read the bloody Evil Overlord List? Or even a Light character?" ::)

[Balefire to da face!]

Damn you Ark, see what you and your obsession with Rand never suffering has done. Now I am going to have to agree with almost everything Ares said. HAPPY!?

 

It is always comforting to be told where the bears shit in the buckwheat. Mr Ares, you are like Wikipedia. I know there are facts there but I choose to treat it as crap. I have never read so many posts anywhere where someone has ALL the answers to every question posted.

 

You do not discuss or debate. You tell us what is on and what is off. Bloody annoying.

 

In the case of Rand not giving it a single thought, Ares is 100% correct. I know you guys have now defended this line of thinking for a couple of pages, so you aren't going to let it go but it really is rediculous to think Rand is going to balefire Semi to get his hand back. Or that anyone else or going to. Or that anyone else would even think about it.

 

Rand doesn't care about his hand, after all that he has went through(never healing scars, losing his mind, the taint, I could go on...) losing a hand simply is not that important to him. It is not weak writing or anything other then the fact that Rand is just callous to injuries at this point. And yes, if you've ever seen just about any documentary on war there are stories of soliders running back into battle with injuries far worse then a blown off hand. If the story brings it around as such that Rand is reflecting a little with a sense of loss about his hand down the line then that is entirely understandable. This was the heat of battle though, frankly it would have been surprising and rather weak of Rand to get all weepy about his hand in that situation.

 

ALSO, Rand doesn't kill women. ALSO, there is no way the first thought of anyone(other then maybe Nyn...and that's still a big maybe) present would have been to get Rand's hand back rather then what they could learn from Semi.

 

The argument is just flawed. I see no reason why balefire as a solution should have been mentioned, and I would have found it to be forced if it were.

 

If you have read anything other than books about war and magazines about how right you are you might have stumbled upon more authors who create literary bloopers. So has RJ but not according to you.

 

Balefire is not a constant marvel, not a flawless creation, in my opinion. RJ must have developed it through the books - making it less useful in every book. That is the feeling I have. While RJ's writing is magical there are flaws.

 

If you feel like replying to us lesser being be creative and come up with something constructive. Don't strive to be asinine although you do a good job at it.

 

I know what a literary blunder is, and I know a suspicious looking retcon when I see it. Balefire is neither. And I find it funny that you think it's lost it's usefulness in the latter books.

 

As opposed to the earlier books where Rand was handing it out like candy for situations that never even came close to requiring it. Some of the characters grew up and realized they were playing with a weapon more dangerous then they ever knew.

 

Oh, and as far as characters go, Jordan was definitely extremely conservative when it came to killing them off. Perrin's family was sad, as someone pointed out, but that was because of Perrin, not because of those characters. Niall and Bornhald are actually a little bit sadder on rereads because you don't realize just how rare even half reasonable or fair Whitecloaks are until you've read the entire series.

 

Ingtar was actually pretty sad. Probably the only legitimately touching and signifigant death the series has had. While we only knew him for one book, at that point that one book was half the entire series. And the scene was written so well, and we got glimpses of Ingtar's desperation throughout the book, this was probably one of, if not the only, scenes in all the books I found myself actually getting a little choked up.

 

I don't know that Anaiya was sad, but it certainly was shocking to have that sweet, motherly, and rare instance of a non-bitchy Aes Sedai get murdered.

 

That said, I still have to agree that signifigant deaths have been few and far between so far. Hopefully we'll get to see Cads, Lan, and some others make some big sacrifices in the next couple of books.....

[magnutz]

 

If you have read anything other than books about war and magazines about how right you are you might have stumbled upon more authors who create literary bloopers. So has RJ but not according to you.

 

Balefire is not a constant marvel, not a flawless creation, in my opinion. RJ must have developed it through the books - making it less useful in every book. That is the feeling I have. While RJ's writing is magical there are flaws.

 

If you feel like replying to us lesser being be creative and come up with something constructive. Don't strive to be asinine although you do a good job at it.

 

I know what a literary blunder is, and I know a suspicious looking retcon when I see it. Balefire is neither. And I find it funny that you think it's lost it's usefulness in the latter books.

 

 

Balefire is not a literary blunder - it a plot device that has changed during the course of the story.

 

It hasn't lost its usefulness in the books. Balefire is very useful. I never thought that it was useless. I argued that Balefire as a plot device/effect/doohickey has changed through the story from being very useful to severely restricted. Re-constructed/evolved in a way - it feels like it.

 

And to why the characters in the series don't understand Balefire I argued that that was the reason. RJ developed the weave as the story progressed and this caused the confusion. My theory. I might very well be super wrong here... ;) I will keep an eye out for any evidence as I re-read the books again.

[magnutz]

More thought on Balefire and the burning of threads in the Pattern.

 

This is one of the plot devices I feel have been invented after the invention of the weave itself. To restrict the use of the thing. Like the nerf preformed on the Rail-gun in Quake (PC game of pure awesomness). Make it reload slower and it will become less potent - make Balefire burn threads in the Pattern and it will become less potent. That is how I see it. ;)

[Arkelias]

Balefire said:

Damn you Ark, see what you and your obsession with Rand never suffering has done. Now I am going to have to agree with almost everything Ares said. HAPPY!?

 

I feel your pain.  He actually made me laugh in another thread recently.  This must mean the pattern is unravelling and the Tarmon Gaidon of our age is about to occur!

 

I also have to agree that it would be out of character for Rand to have used balefire on Semi.  Most of my argument stems from hating the way Rand is written, because he won't do something like axe the witch with balefire =/

 

You've heard our position and I understand why you disagree.  Its just that I view Rand losing his hand as RJ's final slap in the face to his readership.  I understand many may not share the view, or even understand why I feel that way.  Nevertheless, it really did bother me that much >.<

 

It felt like an attempt to shake the last of the people who liked Rand from his reader base.  Whether it was or wasn't it certainly succeeded in that regard.

[Muad Cheade]

You've heard our position and I understand why you disagree.  Its just that I view Rand losing his hand as RJ's final slap in the face to his readership.  I understand many may not share the view, or even understand why I feel that way.  Nevertheless, it really did bother me that much >.<

 

It felt like an attempt to shake the last of the people who liked Rand from his reader base.  Whether it was or wasn't it certainly succeeded in that regard.

 

If you feel that way, you should immediately stop reading his books and commenting on this forum. Simple as that.

 

It did not feel that way to me at all. If Jordan "attempted" anything, it was to show that the Shadow can hurt the Light even the one who was thought to be the most powerful. If not for Cadsuane's ter'angreal, Rand would be dead.

 

 

[Wingendosering]

magnutz, you read my mind.  Honestly almost all of your posts thus far have been like looking at my own interpretation of RJs series.

 

Rand's hesitancy towards killing women actually becomes stressed less and less throughout the series.  Reread the end of LoC and compare it to Lanfear near the end of tFoH and you'll see what I mean.  I agree with everybody that balefiring Semi would be...perhaps...a..little...insane...but hey that's what Rand is supposed to be now right?  To me, the whole hand thing just seemed completely unnecessary.  What does it actually do to the plot?  Nothing...it brings nothing whatsoever into the story except generate ill will towards Rands stupidity.

 

However, I have to get teary here for a moment.  WHY DO YOU GUYS KEEP SAYING YOU HATE RAND? *cries*  He's still the best character!  One thing I find particularly unjust is that RJ doesn't give him much time in the spotlight the further into the series you go.  In fact, TDR and COT are my two least favourite books simply because Rand isn't in them much.  Personally I couldn't stand Rand early on because he was so whiny and reluctant.  But then he just suddenly over the time covered in TDR becomes all 'hard' and 'unfeeling'.  I love the premise but I thought it was executed poorly.  The result, either way, is a better protagonist in my mind.

 

Jordan's biggest fault, in my mind, is the way he twists the plot and makes characters do things that they wouldn't do, often to the point where it seems he just ran out of ideas for them.  This is especially true in the later books.  Perrin simply becomes annoying, because he never actually does anything.  Jordan sent him off on a task that needed to be done and left him to do that task for what, 3 books now?  More?  He simply didn't know how Perrin could fit into the story anymore.

 

Elayne keeps wanting to leave to see Rand once she reaches Salidar.  THAT seemed in character...then out of nowhere she pulls a full 180 and keeps thinking Nynaeve is being stupid for wanting to leave.  She's a spoiled prat that is used to getting what she wants...why wouldn't she run off to Rand?  And the three women for Rand thing is becoming irritating as well.  The concept works well, Avi and Min are certainly the types to be willing to share.  Elayne?  I can't see her character sharing him, period.  It doesn't fit with her personality at all.

 

Aviendha is a huge bother.  Jordan pulled off all sorts of weird reasons to put her closer to Rand.  Sharing his bedchamber made no sense for any reason besides making them fall in love.  And once she becomes pregnant she just gets tossed off to the side.  She plays her role well up until book 7, but then things go downhill.  He sends her off to accompany others as a side-character and again, we end up feeling she's just been pushed off with no real future in mind...

 

Mat really bugs me.  There's no denying his character becomes more and more prominent in each book, but I find his POVs irritating.  Why exactly is the boy who loves risk and gambling, suddenly pissed off whenever anything exciting happens?  He doesn't want to settle down and finding a wife eventually really frightens him...yet all he wants to do from tFoH onwards is moan about not being able to run off and live a quiet life.  He's one of the most contradictory characters in my mind.

 

Egwene...don't even get me started.  She becomes Amyrlin, simply as a way of moving the plot forward, even though the choice makes little sense.  And she very quickly changes from doing everything to help Rand, to using him as a hate-figure to gather support against Elaida.  She becomes a character that's designed to be hated.  It's really annoying at times.

 

As for no emotionally compelling characters dying, I have to agree.  The closest we got was Aram.  When he died I immediately thought "No way...he actually killed off a mainish character", but after the shock wore off, I realized I was glad he was dead, because he was annoying and served no purpose.

 

The Forsaken being brought back originally bothered me, but on this reread I don't mind so much.  There are supposed to be 13, but in order to stir up conflict, we lost quite a few early on in ways that didn't really make sense (the first time through).  By bringing them back RJ was giving Rand a proper struggle against all thirteeen now that we have more knowledge of how the power works.  Balthamael and Aginor were brought in out of nowhere and how powerful they were never really registered with the reader.  We had no previous knowledge of the thirteen legendary evil doers, so seeing two at once wasn't appreciated in full.  Only two revivals really bug me and those are Cyndane and Moridin.  Moridin is ok mbecause he's Nae'Bliss, so I can see him getting preferential.  Cyndane is just annoying.  I liked Lanfear, but by the time she died I couldn't help but think 'FINALLY'.  Her coming back seems to serve minimal purpose, except for us to actually see her die this time, if there's any justice.

 

Finally, I think that the things I dislike most about Rand are what most here see as his 'human traits'.  I hate his attitudes towards women and wish he'd grow up.  I understand not wanting to hurt women, I myself would never lay a hand on one normally.  But in self defense, or defense of a loved one?  Damn right I would...anybody would.  If Lanfear was killing me, Moiraine, Egwene, and my current lover (AKA Aviendha) then of course I would fight back...doing otherwise makes no sense.  And that all comes back to the hand.  Not caring about its loss makes as little sense as RJ taking it from him in the first place.

 

You need to remember that hearing stories about war vets that fought on without a hand or arm is all well and good.  But they're stories...they change with each telling.  The truth is often far worse and alot of veterans don't really get into that pain when the retellings occur.  Plus, in this day and age a hand is worth less.  Guns don't need two hands all the time...a sword does.  Or at least, you'd have to relearn everything to make a sword a one-handed weapon.

 

And again, this fits in with characters not acting as they should.  Rand is mad, he has little human left in him...or at least RJ seems to want us to think this way, but if it were true, he'd kill Semi without a second thought.  Clearly there's more human and reasonable thinking left than he's supposed to have, or else once again we have an event that doesn't fit with the personalities of the characters it affects.

 

Sorry if this made no sense....my thoughts are totally flying right now, lol.

[Arkelias]

You've heard our position and I understand why you disagree.  Its just that I view Rand losing his hand as RJ's final slap in the face to his readership.  I understand many may not share the view, or even understand why I feel that way.  Nevertheless, it really did bother me that much >.<

 

It felt like an attempt to shake the last of the people who liked Rand from his reader base.  Whether it was or wasn't it certainly succeeded in that regard.

 

If you feel that way, you should immediately stop reading his books and commenting on this forum. Simple as that.

 

It did not feel that way to me at all. If Jordan "attempted" anything, it was to show that the Shadow can hurt the Light even the one who was thought to be the most powerful. If not for Cadsuane's ter'angreal, Rand would be dead.

 

 

 

I should stop posting why?  Because I have a dissenting opinion that you don't like?  I've invested 20 years into this series and I would very much like to see the ending.  Given that this forum is a place for discussion, shouldn't I be able to have my opinion heard too?

 

I know what I have to say annoys you, but I'm not changing and I'm not going away.  Many people put Jordan's series on a pedastal.  I do not.  Its an amazing series, but it is also flawed and I can think of nowhere better to discuss those flaws than here.

 

I'm not saying the series sucks.  I'm saying I really dislike where Jordan took it in books 7-11, and I'm hoping the last three turn it around.

 

Also, Maud, we've seen plenty of times where Rand nearly died.  In fact almost every fight ends that way.  Moridin saving him from Sammael.  Nyneave saving him from Rahvin, Moraine saving him in the stone.  I've never thought he was immune to the shadow.

[mb]

This is one of the plot devices I feel have been invented after the invention of the weave itself.

If channeling/weaves was invented, I think all of it would have been the Creator's.

Channeling having an genetic component could be an indicator of that.

 

The only inventions from the One Power I think would be constructs/terangreal/sa'angreal/angreal.

[richnewton82]

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[richnewton82]

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