Rand's battles with Ba'alzamon in the first 2 books

[bmunge]

I've been rereading the series and was curious about Rand's battles with Ishy in EotW and TGH. I don't really understand a lot about the battles and what is actually taking place. In TGH it appears that Rand kills Ishy. However, Ishy is show early in The Dragon Reborn in the dream world with a wounded chest. Did he have a lingering wound? It seems like to live he would have needed healing. If that was the case, why would he still have a chest wound?

 

In EotW all Rand seems to do is sever the cord to the Dark One. If I'm correct in this, that cord protects him from the Taint. Does that mean in books 2 and 3 that Ishy is channeling a tainted Saidin?

 

I also don't understand how Rand wins these battles. Why the heck is Ishy fighting with a staff above Falme? It's obvious that he could burn Rand to cinders at this point but he never really makes an attack with the power.

 

If anyone could clear up some of these scenes I'd appreciate it.

[Mr Ares]

The first thing to remember is that in these books, Ishamael is trying to convert Rand to the Shadow, not kill him. So while he could kill Rand with the Power (One or True), he doesn't because he doesn't want to. Ishy was apparently re-connected to Shai'tan, if his connection was indeed severed - he uses TP in TDR, during his battle against Rand. Also bear in mind Ishy is "less than half human". It might be that he didn't need Healing, that he recovered by himself, or maybe he was Healed but it was less effective due to his extensive TP use (his flaming eye sockets are an advanced form of the saa). In TDR he did want Rand dead. However, his attempt to outright kill him after Rand got Callandor resulted in Rand hunting him down and killing him.

[Durinax]

Ishy could have adjusted his body in the dream world to show the wound to try and manipulate Rand's mind

[Balefire to da face!]

The first thing to remember is that in these books, Ishamael is trying to convert Rand to the Shadow, not kill him. So while he could kill Rand with the Power (One or True), he doesn't because he doesn't want to. Ishy was apparently re-connected to Shai'tan, if his connection was indeed severed - he uses TP in TDR, during his battle against Rand. Also bear in mind Ishy is "less than half human". It might be that he didn't need Healing, that he recovered by himself, or maybe he was Healed but it was less effective due to his extensive TP use (his flaming eye sockets are an advanced form of the saa). In TDR he did want Rand dead. However, his attempt to outright kill him after Rand got Callandor resulted in Rand hunting him down and killing him.

 

Yeah, I would imagine if the act of stabbing Ishy in the chest with the sword melted a power-wrought blade that there is more to him then just flesh and blood. I've noticed a lot of people tend to overlook the fact that Ishy/Moridin is more then just another Forsaken, or even first among the Fosaken. He has a special connection with the Dark One that I still don't think we've seen all of yet.

 

As for the battles, I would say that Rand tapping into the Eye is what made him a match for Ishy, and I don't think even at the very end that Ishy had any intention of killing him. I think at the very end of TGH Ishy was prepared to kill Rand, but perhaps the Horn caught them in a "one on one" kind of dual because of it being linked to the heroes battle with the Seanchan?

 

I am curious, if Ishy was reconnected with the DO after the end of tEotW then what caused him to go bonkers? Was his growing madness at all attributed to the taint, or was it just a product of him living 3000 years with increments of freedom? For that matter, why did he pretend to be the DO at all? Was it all a show for Rand, or was Ishy already so far gone that he really thought he was the DO freed and ready to take the world? Or did it start out as a show for Rand, and turn into the latter.....

[ROB_88]

I am curious, if Ishy was reconnected with the DO after the end of tEotW then what caused him to go bonkers? Was his growing madness at all attributed to the taint, or was it just a product of him living 3000 years with increments of freedom?

don't forget that from what we've seen it seems that the saa makes you more crasy then the taint does, although perhaps in a sligthly different way

[Aiemond]

The first thing to remember is that in these books, Ishamael is trying to convert Rand to the Shadow, not kill him. So while he could kill Rand with the Power (One or True), he doesn't because he doesn't want to. Ishy was apparently re-connected to Shai'tan, if his connection was indeed severed - he uses TP in TDR, during his battle against Rand. Also bear in mind Ishy is "less than half human". It might be that he didn't need Healing, that he recovered by himself, or maybe he was Healed but it was less effective due to his extensive TP use (his flaming eye sockets are an advanced form of the saa). In TDR he did want Rand dead. However, his attempt to outright kill him after Rand got Callandor resulted in Rand hunting him down and killing him.

 

Yeah, I would imagine if the act of stabbing Ishy in the chest with the sword melted a power-wrought blade that there is more to him then just flesh and blood. I've noticed a lot of people tend to overlook the fact that Ishy/Moridin is more then just another Forsaken, or even first among the Fosaken. He has a special connection with the Dark One that I still don't think we've seen all of yet.

 

As for the battles, I would say that Rand tapping into the Eye is what made him a match for Ishy, and I don't think even at the very end that Ishy had any intention of killing him. I think at the very end of TGH Ishy was prepared to kill Rand, but perhaps the Horn caught them in a "one on one" kind of dual because of it being linked to the heroes battle with the Seanchan?

 

I am curious, if Ishy was reconnected with the DO after the end of tEotW then what caused him to go bonkers? Was his growing madness at all attributed to the taint, or was it just a product of him living 3000 years with increments of freedom? For that matter, why did he pretend to be the DO at all? Was it all a show for Rand, or was Ishy already so far gone that he really thought he was the DO freed and ready to take the world? Or did it start out as a show for Rand, and turn into the latter.....

 

Ishy has been crazy for awhile. He was pretty out there during the war of power if what the other forsaken think is on target and I am sure that his half binding has not helped with his mental state. But, the half binding does not explain it enough, and is not really at the core of the issue. Who Ishmael is and was is why he is crazy.

 

In the AoL, he was a deep thinker, a philosopher. He reasoned out the reasons for things happening, the order of the universe and the pattern. That was his specialty (Look at the Big White Book, it lists some of his publications). I am sure he came up with the belief that the creator never interceded even before the bore was drilled. Anyway, the bore was drilled and the DO appeared.

This was sure to interest our philosopher, and this is where the core of his current beliefs began. He saw the DO as the antithesis of the pattern and engaged in a battle that has happened over and over again. These beliefs may have been very compatible with what he had written before the bore and he most likely thought he was the only one who understood the battle. While all the other forsaken wanted power and immortality, Ishmael was the one who instead wanted what the DO wanted.

Now, with this belief came the thought that he was the DOs champion. While the other feared using the TP, Ishmael embraced it. This is the final steps of his madness imo. We know that using the TP has a very heavy price, other than the saa, but what is it? I think it is becoming more like the DO: loosing what makes you human, valuing the same true goals that he has, and simply thinking like him.

 

This is why things seem different to Ishy/mordin. He is thinking far more about the big picture of the age lace, the endless battles, the positioning. He did not kill rand in those first battles because, as the DOs champion and with the imprinting of the DO the TP does, he knows that for a full victory to occur that Rand has to convert to the shadow willingly. Remember, the DO is a big control freak, he wants an absolute victory, he wants to take the ace. Also, it is possible Rand is needed in some fashion to actually unseal the prison.

 

So, in a nutshell: Ishy was a philosopher, and when the DO appeared it helped him form a worldview about the endless battles. He felt a connection with the DO, and unlike the others, embraced the price of the TP (which, imo, is becoming more like the DO). And he does not kill rand because the DO wants total victory over him, ie him kneeling. And because Ishy/Mordin is more in tune with the wishes and personality of the DO thus he was named nae'blis.

[Mr Ares]

Yeah, I would imagine if the act of stabbing Ishy in the chest with the sword melted a power-wrought blade

That Rand was channeling through. And Ishy was crazy throughout.

[Wonzer]

About the battle in Falme: I think that Ishy was just playing with Rand untill Rand "stabbed him to the hearth" what I think happened is that Ishy channeled and melted tha blade but he wasn't fast enough and the blade cut his cheast even if it didn't cut deep enough to pierce his hearth. It all happened really fast and we had Rand's pov so for he it seemed that blade went trough Ishy's hearth when it actually smelted.

[Wingendosering]

My understanding of matters:

 

In TEOTW the 'cords' connecting people were them drawing the One Power from the Eye.  When Rand severs Aginor's(?) cord, the Forsaken was no longer able to handle the power he'd drawn and burned himself out; both in the One Power and his physical body.

 

So I think this means that Ishamael was also burned out, which would explain his lack of One Power usage in TGH.  He sticks to Dreaming, which does not require the power, and the True Power.  As for why he doesn't die in TGH, it seems to me that the blade melted as it touched Ishamael, instead of penetrating his body.  Ever seen one of those joke knives where the blade retreats into the hilt as you stab somebody?  It gives the appearance of stabbing a person, but in fact the blade just grows shorter.

 

Honestly though, the One Power's use wasn't as well thought out in those books and as such the actual structure seemed more made up as it went along.  I'm not sure those battles are even supposed to be explainable.

[Mashiara Sedai]

A little off subject, but how does Rand know anything about the True Power.  In one of the later books, he assumes "the wanderer" was using the TP, but where did he get the knowledge of it?  Was it Lews Therin?  And if so, how did Lews Therin know?  It seems like the existance of the TP would be only given to the few allowed to weild it.

 

 

~Mashiara

[Wingendosering]

He saw Lanfear boring the hole into the Dark One's prison in Rhuidean.  He heard that there was a power that both men and women could access.  However, he does display an unusual amount of knowledge there...

 

Similar question, also off topic.  How does Mat magically start understanding Saidar vs Saidin and know the different Ajahs form TSR onwards?  In TDR he realistically has no idea what an ajah is or what Saidar is, and never wants to know.  Then he magically gets priviliged information...

[dapianoplay3r]

Doesnt it come after his memory being filled by the Aelfinn/Eelfinn?

[Red2111]

i think matts understanding comes from both his knowledge gaind fromt eh aelfinn/eelfinn and his being around channelers and aes sedia.  matt's always been good at judging surroundings and hearing things when people dont knwo hes listening, even before the twisted door in tear.

 

 

i always just assumed that first 1st battle against DO in EotW was another forsaken, and that only ishy was the the other 2

 

besides, didn't the rat scene happen in TGH, with the rats being broken in two during the Dream and being found in the waking world in the Inn...  that would have had to involve the power.

 

 

besides if a forsaken, even ishy, was severed from the DO (that big black rope) i don't think they could be re-connected.  take what happened to asmodian for instance. 

 

i believe he pleaded with lanfear to take him to shaygoul to be reconnected and she scoffed at the idea, saying that he would be punished because he let that happen.  or something like that.

[Al Thor93]

Question: You all keep referring to Saa, could you clarify what that is?

 

Also, since Rand cut the cord that kept away the taint from the dark one wouldn't he go madder than he already is or is he too far gone to be any madder.

[Mr Ares]

In TEOTW the 'cords' connecting people were them drawing the One Power from the Eye. When Rand severs Aginor's(?) cord, the Forsaken was no longer able to handle the power he'd drawn and burned himself out; both in the One Power and his physical body.

Aginor just overdrew. Rand didn't do anything.

 

So I think this means that Ishamael was also burned out, which would explain his lack of One Power usage in TGH.

If he was burnt out, he couldn't use the OP or the TP.

 

A little off subject, but how does Rand know anything about the True Power. In one of the later books, he assumes "the wanderer" was using the TP, but where did he get the knowledge of it? Was it Lews Therin?  And if so, how did Lews Therin know? It seems like the existance of the TP would be only given to the few allowed to weild it.

It seems perfectly reasonable that the Light would learn something of the TP, especially when it is used against them. A Power they cannot sense? People displaying saa? Mention of the TP from Darkfriends? They can piece all this together.

 

Question: You all keep referring to Saa, could you clarify what that is?

The saa are a symptom of heavy TP use. Moridin has them, as black dots that move across his eyes (these are visible both to him, and to outsiders. Ishamael has a more advanced form, seen as flaming eye sockets and mouth.

[Wingendosering]

Doesn't he sever Aginor's?  Hmm..I could have sworn he did.  And if you're burnt out of the one power you lose the True Power too?  Wow, clearly I missed something, when did we learn that?

[Mr Ares]

Doesn't he sever Aginor's?

No. And Aginor's cord (his connection to the Eye) and Ishy's are different.

Wow, clearly I missed something, when did we learn that?

RJ interviews, if nothing else. You need to be a channeler to use the TP. It might be in the books as well.