ROBERT JORDAN: Literary Wh0re

[aronsamma]

the tor site said he originally planned on 6.

[SinisterDeath]

I see there are a lot of negative feedbacks, but I really expected no less. But in my defense, I would say that it really is simply a matter of how you see it, and I stand by my conviction. I can say one thing, while ten thousand others would disagree, but in the end, there really is no way of knowing for certain which is right. (And I have met a lot of people who have the same opinion, after all.) RJ himself can say it's just the way he writes, but no one can get away with saying "I just do it for the money, ya'll!" without being despised, after all.

 

And it's quite easy for people to say "Just quit reading it," but it's not that simple, since I've been reading it for about 6 years, and I owe it to myself to finish it, after all those hours reading them. As for the public library thing, we don't have one here, much less one with fantasy books. But since CoT, I have just been reading summaries from certain websites, so as not to be "ripped off," to my convenience. As for the "literary whore" thing, I just thought it's a title that could catch attention (and it has to some extent), and I do believe it, after all; and apologize if I offended some fans.

But whether you agree with me or not, it's a great thing that we're discussing it: perhaps you could change my mind, and vice versa?

 

Well, first of all, since you've actually stopped reading the actual books, what is the point of coming here besides to tell us that you've stopped and that you don't like them?

Think about it. The people who come here regularly, pretty much down to the last person, like these books and atually read them.

So Sinister is pretty much right that you are displaying rather played out Troll tendencies.

 

In your defence though Draven, I don't see what sinister is talking about so much with the fanfiction. Fanfiction is not real and it is pretty irrelevant seeing as no one is trying to sell those stories to make a profit. I doubt Tolkien's family is being harmed by fanfiction, and George Lucas is the brain behind Star Wars, not Steven Spielberg.

 

In any case, there is a point to the post. There are some doubts in peoples' minds about how this series is going and how it'll turn out. The topic (however crassly named) gives an opportunity to discuss the direction of the narrative. I welcome that oppotunity even if I have discussed it before. That's the beauty of this series though. My feelings about it change over time, ever so slightly. It's nice to take stock of where you're at with it. I still love it.

 

Gah, I always get lucas and spielberg mixed up! They all look alike! (Directors :P)

As for fanfiction, you'd be suprised at the ammount of authors/publishers that get all piseyeyed at the mere thought of it. Hell, someone tried to make a 'mod' for the game morrowind about lord of the rings.

Now the mod its self, was basically a 're-creation' of the land from the maps, added races ect. And a few quests. Now since the mod its self and the game didn't handle a type of 'you are frodo go here here and here, ect but it was a 'you are this race/class go do whatever'.

Anyways at around 70% of the production down, mind you this 'mod' is free since a mod can not be sold, and was not taking the book and typing it all out in the game. They got a call from the tolkiens lawyers... As well as all the gaming/movie producers lawyers to shut it down.. They are very very stingy on that kind of thing.. RJ not so much. If he were a sell out like lucas, tolkien, ect he would not allow people to do that..

[Jonn]

Gah, I always get lucas and spielberg mixed up! They all look alike! (Directors :P)

As for fanfiction, you'd be suprised at the ammount of authors/publishers that get all piseyeyed at the mere thought of it. Hell, someone tried to make a 'mod' for the game morrowind about lord of the rings.

Now the mod its self, was basically a 're-creation' of the land from the maps, added races ect. And a few quests. Now since the mod its self and the game didn't handle a type of 'you are frodo go here here and here, ect but it was a 'you are this race/class go do whatever'.

Anyways at around 70% of the production down, mind you this 'mod' is free since a mod can not be sold, and was not taking the book and typing it all out in the game. They got a call from the tolkiens lawyers... As well as all the gaming/movie producers lawyers to shut it down.. They are very very stingy on that kind of thing.. RJ not so much. If he were a sell out like lucas, tolkien, ect he would not allow people to do that..

 

Wow, that sounds pretty messed up. I can see though where there may be some intellectual property issues going on. the Morrowind title is a liscensed title with nothing to do with Tolkien. If the mod is successful, it may get a sales boost from the fact that there is a huge Tolkien audience. Now, see, the books standing alone is one thing, but then there's the movie franchise. I have a feeling it's more to do with the movie franchise, because those b@stards are freakin petty about stuff like that. They have their own stake in the video game market with their liscensed games which they paid a pretty penny to gain the rights to. I can see that they would feel pressured to stop free mods from horning in on their niche, and help sell a rival game no less. Also, if the maps were based directly off of the ones in the Tolkien books, that's technically the intellectual property of Tolkien and they have the right to feel about it whatever they wish to. The first mistake would be to refer to the mod as the "Lord of the Rings" mod. To stay on the safe side, it's best to just rename it something else and change details too. One idea is to change the compass. Make North South, East into West, or to just go clockwise in one direction, something like that.

 

I'm not saying I agree, but I can see that copyright holders do have some legal grounds to interfere in matters that apply to their business.

 

Fanfiction is stand alone. There is no product attached to it in the first degree, like a videogame. No one would pay to read fanfiction, or pay to get something in order to read fanfiction. It's totally different from the videogame issue.

[Zardi]

And if RJ was a sellout, wouldn't he have pullied a JK Rowling/ Chris Paolini and written his books shorter and more condensed to creat a Movie?

Bah. I have to defend Rowling here. Have you even seen the latest Harry Potter books? The HP series may not have as much detail as WoT, but it was originally aimed at a younger audience, and the books are getting more detailed as the series goes on, not less detailed as you claim.

[Draven]

If you are basing this all on reading summaryies you don't even deserve to make that post. Its like claiming farmers make tons of money with out knowing anything about farming. You don't know what you are talking about' date=' so you can't voice your oppinion about it....[/quote']

 

So I've read only the summaries of CoT and KoD, big deal. I've read the whole books from the TEotW to WH, so what's 2 books worth compared to 9? Unless RJ

has changed his style dramatically, or this site is only about CoT or KoD, I believe I still know what I'm talking about.(The final volume, I've every intention of reading, by the way.) So please don't exaggerate. If you don't like my opinion, you DON'T have to read it either.

[Genesis_XVI]

when "art for art's sake" becomes "art for profit's sake," art usually turns to crap.

 

That's great. I don't know whether that's a Draven original (in it's entirety) or you've lifted that from somewhere else, but it's brilliant.

 

I don't know why everyone is so vehemently attacking Draven. He has an opinion, he's expressing it, no body agrees, big deal.

 

I would say that books 8-10 where extremely slow in comparison to the rest of the series, with books 7 and 11 not far behind. This doesn't make them crap. I loved the entire series, and while my favorites are the beginnning books, I don't not appreciate what RJ has accomplished in the others.

 

Having said that the book were a little slower, a little more weighed down with detail, I think the contention that RJ is a whore or doing it for money is both insulting and unfounded. RJ's just adding the depth that the story deserves. Maybe a little too much for passing fantasy fans, but not for true lovers of Wot.

 

All the best,

 

-Genesis_XVI

[SinisterDeath]

So I've read only the summaries of CoT and KoD, big deal. I've read the whole books from the TEotW to WH, so what's 2 books worth compared to 9? Unless RJ

has changed his style dramatically, or this site is only about CoT or KoD, I believe I still know what I'm talking about.(The final volume, I've every intention of reading, by the way.) So please don't exaggerate. If you don't like my opinion, you DON'T have to read it either.

 

When you start basing your oppinion on a book, and an author purely on summaries and hear say, your oppinion means nothing to me, and I will debunk it every time. Until you actually read CoT, and KoD, and can make your own oppinion on it, and not a pre-generated biased oppionion on the books, that most likely the summaries haven't even read...

 

And its kinda like the whole 'I know the ending of the story' scenario. You may know the ending, but you don't know squat until you go through the experiences in it. You can't understand a book, muchless a movie just by knowing how it ends, or the little summaries of it. You have to read it in its entireity to truelly understand it, and get a real oppinion. Not someone elses.

 

The very fact that you posted this comment.

 

I see there are a lot of negative feedbacks, but I really expected no less

 

As well as that ever so brillant flamefest that you are lucky you didn't get banned for on the first page.

 

The fact that you came to a WoT fan site just so you could post something like this, within less then a weeks time? If your not a troll, then I'm betty boop.

[Jedimuppet]

Wow, you guys are really ripping into this person. I admit his language was a bit inflammatory, but it sure seems like there is a little bit of the pot calling the kettle black here. Sure, he started it, but some of you seem to have just been waiting for an opportunity to unload venom...

 

He may be trolling, but I submit that some of the posters in this thread are just trolling in response to a troll, hoping to get away with it because they didnt start it.

 

Besides which, there is a point to be had here. I almost quit reading the books after I finished WH. It was just far too slow, and it felt like I was being strung along (this series has been going on 13 plus years) for far too long. Ultimately I decided I would not drop the series after reading thousands of pages and all the books up to that point, but I can understand the frustration of disgrunteled readers.

 

I guess, though, you have to be able to step outside of yourself. You can be a fan of WoT, AND think that RJ has milked this series somewhat.

 

nuff said,

J

[/code]

[Genesis_XVI]

I agree Jedimuppet. Most of the people I know who read the series struggled/quit book 8 onwards. I was so absorbed with the story, I didn't feel it as much, but I can definitely understand why anyone might feel frustrated. Even Wikipedia notes the series grows less popular [look up wheel of time] as you pass book 6. I think Draven has chosen the wrong audience to express his opinion to though. Dedicated subscribers to Jordanian fantasy don't feel the lull as much, so they view the contention that Jordan is dragging out the novels to generate a larger profit as an insult; to both their much revered author and their own interest in the series. Personally, I think Draven is entitled to his opinion - even if it is a bit strong/insulting - and I think he has a lot of evidence to support his basic premise (that Jordan has dragged out the series), with a lot of people agreeing. I don't, but if he'd like to find heaps that do, just drop into wotmania; speciffically chat.

 

-Genesis_XVI

[Draven]

Thanks for the open-minded post, Jedimuppet, appreciate it. As for Genesis'. It seems that not being a "Jordan-can-do-wrong" fan in this forums is like kicking a child or something. But then again, I was also tactless, so I deserve it somewhat. That doesn't stop me from thinking that some - if not many - are taking it personal and overreacting though...

[Zardi]

That doesn't stop me from thinking that some - if not many - are taking it personal and overreacting though...

You are entitled to your opinion, but given the tone and wording of your first post, it really shouldn't surprise you that people are overreacting. People who say that you shouldn't base your opinion on summaries of the books are right, in my opinion. If you don't want to read the later books, that's fine, but don't knock it based on biased summaries.

 

Also, there are people here who don't like the later books so much, but they find better ways of expressing their opinions (including not calling RJ a "whore" of any kind). I know there are threads about both PoD and CoT somewhere around here.

 

Try to think of it this way: it's as if someone has just read a few short articles about something you care about (whatever that may be), without ever trying it for themselves, and then proceeded to start ranting about how dull it was, or how pointless, or whatever. Wouldn't you try to defend it?

[mightisright]

I'll tell you what you do if you think 7-10 are slow. You skim them or wait until he finishes the series. Individually 7-10, especially 9 and 10, concentrate on subplots and leave the major players in the shadows. Perrin's situation (imho) was just bad writing. We have understood Perrin's take on the world since TSR. Anyway, the real problem for me was that there was no next book to grind into. I ushually start a series and finish it within two weeks. Its what I do with ALL my time. When there is no next book to grind into and the newest segment of the story made lots of little movements to lots of little plotlines, it leaves me wanting. Wanting a conclusion, wanting to wrap my head around what 'happened' in the book. How did a major plotline come to a head and conclude or change significantly. In both WH and COT there is only one significant change. However, the last book is coming and it will make the tedium of the slow books easy to skim in future rereadings. (I don't go back and read Frodo's time in Mordor very often.) This isn't to say those parts don't have merit, they definitely develope the story further. Once a series is complete after all you can just go back and read the parts that move you emotionally. (happy,sad, whatever). The slower parts or parts less significant to the main characters, are something I enjoy knowing about for a deeper context/insight on the interesting parts, but I won't be reading them throughly again.

[kittydesmond]

NO FLAMING, AND NO NAME CALLING...

 

 

Draven...You have your opinion I respect that...BUT I dissagree...

 

 

LONG LIVE MY FAVORITE AUTHOR!!!!!

[Asajin]

I disagree with the Jordan-can-do-no-wrong, comment Draven. I personally am not of the opinion that Jordan is the best and his word is law. However you must understand, that we have immense respect for RJ and have enjoyed book 8-10 despite them going slower, immensely. Also the logic of posting such a badly-worded post on an excruciatingly popular fansite is not very logical. Thus the venom in our words.

[Genesis_XVI]

I disagree with the comments that attacked your tact and opinion. And the people that say

I respect your opinion

but then go onto say in the most disrespectful of tones that you aren't entitled to such an opinion.

 

Draven, I disagreed with your conclusion. That's pretty obvious from my posts, but I found your initial post refreshingly straight forward, and sincere in its insincerity. What I'm saying is: that you'd be the wh0re if you had of watered down your true opinions to appease people like me who have enjoyed the whole series. You shouldn't have been shouted down for voicing an opinion that didn't sit well with regular users here. Plus, there are far too many people who agree with you for your opinion to be called redundant.

 

Anywho, it's all about perspective. I found the final passages of RotK in LotR challenging at times, but my brother who is a Tolkien die-hard couldn't even entertain my concerns. [Mind you, I didn't then call Tolkien a wh0re :) ]

 

Lastly, I think the argument that you can't formulate an opinion because you haven't read the last two books is stupid. Don't get me wrong, I think you're wrong by the simple logic that RJ didn't drag out the series for money (which is a speculation on my part, just as the opposite is on yours). You've read upto 9, the drag began after 6, you're entitled to draw a conclusion as to why you believe this is the case, based solely on the percieved drag present between 6 and 9. You don't need to have read more drag (matter of perspective) to be aware of the drag, so you can make a comment about the drag.

 

-Genesis_XVI

 

PS- The drag doesn't exist. You're confusing pointless detail with sophistication of image and expression (my opinion).

[Kadere]

Even Wikipedia notes the series grows less popular [look up wheel of time] as you pass book 6.

 

It's interesting to note that all of the books post A Crown of Swords have been #1 bestsellers, while none of the first 7 were. Saying the series has become less popular is true, because many have found it dull, BUT it's the dull books that have made a lot more cash.

[Zardi]

Lastly, I think the argument that you can't formulate an opinion because you haven't read the last two books is stupid.

But wasn't he including at least CoT in his opinion? If not, then nevermind, but if he did, how can he form an opinion of a book he hasn't read?

[mike]

i have read and reread these books since the great hunt was published and many times i have wished i ended sooner. i won't call the author names because its his books - i could have put them down. however, i didn't and just as the registered voter has an upper hand over the non-registered, i am free to air my opinions without much backlash.

i enjoy jordan's style: he writes as to make you feel as if you are standing there with the characters. he can slow time - something sorely lacking in some author's work - to enable the reader to see flies in the air or another's chest rise and fall while breathing.

movies made in the 1940s moved at the same pace relying on writing and acting rather than X-game cars flying through the air inverted or the ability of every actor to exhibit master skills in martial arts and the know-how of a trained soldier with firearms and other weaponry.

on that same note, i grow extremely weary of women playing with their skirts as well as the deft manner in which they may balance a teacup that may contain cold and bitter tea upon their fingertips. in the long run it serves as i mentioned before - it puts the reader within reaching distance of said character. however, i have grown tired of touching them. i know them intimately at this point but want to move on as they are not real in my life. they are but characters in a story much like the cat in the hat or curious george. the bad thing is i, like thousands of readers of this series, want closure.

 

the eye of the world had so many turns of events within those pages while demonstrating the same literary manner in many of the past few books but i often question who the actual author was for some chapters. has his wife sat in on some of the past few books?

some of us have been at these books for more than 10 years whereas some have just touched upon them. those of us that have been at it and are avid readers in general may have the same feelings as i do.

i forget who it was but i copied this from a few pages back...

 

*Good day.

I've being reading WoT for about 5 years now...

...On a personal note, if it was up to me, not only I wish to see another 10 books about 3rd or 4th age, but I would love to read few books on how history of the world perceived the story of the Dragon Reborn 3 thousand years after his death.*

 

i don't know this person's age nor reading habits but hanging me for 15 years is a good piece of work. matthew, mark, luke and john are the only others that have held me glued to one single work of literature and i don't read that as often as i should.

i read the entire left behind series while waiting for KoD. i got that book and the last book of that series on the same day long ago.

 

10 more books would drop the series like a bad sitcom. i would feel like susan lucci in quest of a never-coming emmy at that point. as it is, it has spanned most of a generation, unheard of in the literary world.

 

i didn't flame anyone; yet i said my piece. i am more than ready for his last book and i am sure the author would like to get it off his chest as well before he or i never get to see it. i wish him well.

[Guest Egwene]

Draven, if you had wanted/expected meassured, non-personal, objective responses, you would have made your own post in that mode.

 

I am amazed the thread wasn't deleted. I find the topic header quite insulting to both author and fans. Combined with the tone/content of the first post and the subsequent posts it does nothing to make me take your opinion as anything other than a rant.

 

Not a single response was as insensitive as the initial post in my opinion. There have been a lot of posts that gave good arguments and reasons why those people do not agree with you. How this than is an 'attack' beats me. I also find that you have given very little acknowledgment to those posts.

 

I loved each book. CoT was like having my favourite chocolate dangling in front of my nose but being told I can't have it yet. For me this just increased my sense of expectation for the next book. For you, you prefer the instant fix or quicker meal and thus were dissappointed. Fortunately for me, RJ is writing as I like it. The way you would like it, would probably leave me dissatisfied with the series.

 

I feel no need to convince you to share my opinion. I don't like fennel much. You might love it. Neither opinion says anything about the quality of fennel. It is a matter of taste.

 

Money churning... if RJ had wanted to do that, he would have written as many books, for as much money, but only half the amount of writing. As you say... he could have condensed it. I can think of another famous fantasy author whose first book is as large as any of the WoT and whose subsequent ones got shorter and shorter... strangly, the price for each volum is still the same :?

 

By the way, I am writing this in a pretty laid back happy mood. You're welcome to your opinion... but please accept the fact that a lot of people here don't share it.

[n00l3y]

Hmmm...I just skimmed through this thread, and I don't know whether to laugh or to cry. :roll:

 

Rule 1: Draven can have his own opinions.

Rule 2: We can have our own opinions.

Rule 3: Keep this thread clear of name-calling, insulting, etc.

 

Ok Draven, you have...interesting...views. Amazingly inappropriate for THIS website though. If you think RJ is a money-minded freak...well, keep your mouth shut on a website discussing his most popular series. Oh, and try to listen to sense before you reply to anyone...

[natiels]

I agree with you Draven. I still really like Jordan and think he has created an awesome world and a great story, but I feel that last few books have really been dragging.

 

I recommend that you never ever waste your time reading CoT. I made it to the very end of the book, to what should have been the best part since it was the climax and I ended up putting it down about 50 pages from the end and never missed it. It was just plain bad from start to finish. Nearly nothing eventful happened. Unless you really like reading about tapestries, watered down wine, and weak tea you should not read it.

 

I think you should read KoD though. It was not one of the better books so far but I feel like its good enough to read.

 

I am looking forward to aMoL. I think now that Jordan has committed to an ending he is going to start picking things up and we will see a lot of excitement.

[MsDanya]

I recommend that you never ever waste your time reading CoT. I made it to the very end of the book, to what should have been the best part since it was the climax and I ended up putting it down about 50 pages from the end and never missed it. It was just plain bad from start to finish. Nearly nothing eventful happened. Unless you really like reading about tapestries, watered down wine, and weak tea you should not read it.

 

well, not everyone agrees with you there natiels. personally I think CoT was one of the better books, it all depends on what you like, fighting, battles and action like that, or if you like the intricate politics of WoT, I must say I prefer the last. I am a bug fan of Elayne and Egwene because of that. sure, CoT can be dry at points, but it surely isnt as bad as you make it seem.

 

to get back on topic here, I must say I have been thinking the same about WoT and Jordan. is he jsut making this huge books to make profit? but then I realies, that i wouldnt be without any of the books! that is what makes WoT a great series. all the details and politics. well, jsut my two cents!

[DrakeDouay]

"Draven ?"

Are you related to the "Bluewater" Draven's, hight Olam Hugh Cook, next-door-to-the-Collosnon empire, perchance ?

That would explain your position.

 

It seems to me that you like an "Epic heroic fantasy series", or you don't.

If you like it, it's never TOO long. You never get bored of what the characters

think and feel and WHY they think and feel it.

 

Is the Mahabharat too long ? Are the Illiad or the Aeneid too long ?

Are the Arthurian tales too long? Are The Lord of The Rings and the Silmarillion too long ?

Is the Mabinogeon tooo long ?

 

Are 'Prison Break" and CSI:Vegas too long ?

 

Got bored of the characters, have we ?... :?

 

Not just talking to you, Draven....

[DrakeDouay]

(splutter)

 

Ish Battlestar Galactica too loooong !!?

:evil:

[DrakeDouay]

(Agitated)

 

Let's just leave Starbuck out of this, alright ?

:evil: :evil: