The one power is cheap

[Hallow]

 

PS: For a non-native speaker, you're amazing fluent! I'm impressed, since I can only claim literacy in French, I can't even speak it any more.

 

You can't really compare that. Speaking as someone who's not from an English speaking country I can say that at least where I live, learning English is inevitable. You're practically surrounded by it on the internet, on the television, on the cinemas etc etc. Obviously it's going to be harder for someone from an English speaking country to learn something like French as it has a much smaller presence in your daily life.

 

(Not taking a piss at nightstrike or anything, just thought I'd comment on the comparison there  :D)

[Nightstrike]

Yes, there's a lot of truth in that. :D

[Bob T Dwarf]

Wow, Ark, that one was almost another volume in the series all by itself ;D

 

This makes whoever sent the trollocs a moron.  Even a few dreadlords would have gone a long way to ensuring the attack worked.  The total absence of them all but guaranteed failure.

 

Or, it points out that the sender was not any kind of experienced military commander.  Which helps us narrow down who it might have been.  Clearly not the real Sammael.  Not Taim, nor Demandred.  All three demonstrably competent militarily.

 

So, who does that leave?

 

We could theorize that Moridin did it and then lied about it being "Sammael," but that seems weak.

 

What we know from the books is that when Cyndane revealed that Rand had the Choeden Kal access keys and planned to use them to cleanse saidin, three Forsaken were visibly alarmed.  Aginor/Osan'gar/Dashiva, Balthamel/Aran'gar/Halima, and Graendal.

 

Slayer was hired to kill Rand in Far Madding and failed.  Due to the heavy disguise employed by his patron, the most likely candidate here is Balthamel/Aran'gar/Halima.

 

Thieves were employed to ransack Bashere's tent and Dobraine's rooms hoping to find the access keys or any seals.  Due to the quality of their forged authorizations, the most likely candidate for their patron is Graendal.

 

That leaves Aginor/Osan'gar/Dashiva who is the one who created Trollocs in the first place.  And, who knows so little about military matters that he made them the brutish creatures that he did, believing that strength and fierceness alone was all that was needed to win battles and wars.

 

That attack was an act of desperation by a very frightened person.  The visible alarm, the choice of weapon, and the very lack of any tactical understanding all point to Aginor as the instigator of that attack.  He was also present the last time Rand had used Callandor and was the most likely to know how unlikely Rand would be to use it again.  It was intended to kill Rand before he could cleanse saidin.  It just took too long to nail down where Rand was and for the Shadowspawn to get there.

 

If some of them were flawed I could buy this.  Nearly all of them being flawed not only makes no sense, but it isn't very fun to read about.  So often people talk about good political intrigue, and why Jordan's isn't.  Its because most of his characters are morons who make irrational decisions. 

 

I think that's a big part of Jordan's basic premise though - that people ( both good and bad )  are basically foolish, selfish, and short-sighted.  Yes, it's frustrating to read about characters who are so unremittingly foolish, selfish and short-sighted, but maybe it pushes all of us to look a little farther beyond the end of our own noses as we go forward in life.  If so, I see that as a good thing.

 

I'm generally in agreement with the basic thrust of your other points.  Keep in mind, though, that it's really only timing that allows us to dissect the series to such an extent that we notice the flaws.  Had Jordan completed the series at the pace with which he started we all would have been too busy reading each installment to pick them apart so thoroughly.

 

 

[Arkelias]

Wow, Ark, that one was almost another volume in the series all by itself

 

Yeah, sorry for how long that was =p

 

You present some interesting theories on who could have launched the attack.  Hopefully we'll get confirmation of it one way or another in book 12.

 

I think that's a big part of Jordan's basic premise though - that people ( both good and bad )  are basically foolish, selfish, and short-sighted. 

 

George R.R. Martin makes the same basic premise in his series.  The big difference is that while some people make mistakes based on emotions, nearly every character makes intelligent decisions when you see what they knew at the time.

 

The forsaken are given all sorts of info to work with, and have weaves that could net them far more.  They just fail to utilize it most of the time, which is what makes me face plam when I read their scenes.

 

Yes, it's frustrating to read about characters who are so unremittingly foolish, selfish and short-sighted, but maybe it pushes all of us to look a little farther beyond the end of our own noses as we go forward in life.

 

If this is true then perhaps RJ had a deeper meaning than I thought.  I've always viewed it as a fantasy epic designed to entertain.  A great story that RJ wanted to tell.  If that's the case having characters that are frustrating to read about moves you away from that goal =/

 

 

I'm generally in agreement with the basic thrust of your other points.  Keep in mind, though, that it's really only timing that allows us to dissect the series to such an extent that we notice the flaws.  Had Jordan completed the series at the pace with which he started we all would have been too busy reading each installment to pick them apart so thoroughly.

 

This is true.  Had we all been able to read the series from start to finish with no gaps I think most of us (I know its true for me) would be more forgiving.  The thing is, we weren't.

 

He dragged the series out year after year, and in some cases worked on unrelated projects which made it take even longer.  New Spring anyone?  This is the biggest bone fans will pick, I think.  I personally feel he lost his way, and only recovered it (sadly) too late. 

 

I believe the fan reaction to CoT was so horrible that RJ finally realized how far off course he'd taken the series.  Its not accidental that KoD suddenly accelerated the pace, especially after the feedback his fans gave on books 7-10.

 

People lost interest and the amount of vitriol the accumulated about those books could be viewed from space.  RJ said he didn't read the reviews on Amazon, but I've read his blog and I can tell that not only did he read reviews...they really bothered him.

 

Its a pity the series wandered so far off course.  If it hadn't I doubt I'd nitpick it like I do, but since it did I'll continue to express my frustration via posts like these.

 

I do want to say this though.  The series as a whole was brilliant.  RJ is sadly missed.  Had he lived to write another series I'd have read that too!

[Amayahoshi]

Off topic to the original post, but the way I view WoT is as a whole series, one continuous tale that has to be broken apart for conveniences / practical reasons, I dont really go through each book going 'good, good, excellent, bad, rubbish, okay, boring' etc. As such, the slower pace to the later books for me is expected, and for me this in no way detracts from the series in the slightest - setting the scene, building up events is needed to establish a connection, building a bond with the characters and adds to the WoT series for me.

 

I would much rather hear extensively about the events with Elayne, Egwene et al first hand, rather than reading Rand muse how Elayne secured the throne with relative ease or Egwene dominated the rebels and moulded the White Tower whole - which to outsiders and those not privy to all the information would seem to be the case.

 

I think some of the hate is more for how long it was 'dragged out' for... For me, this hints that perhaps waiting for so long in between books is the real reason for discontent so I agree with Arkelias comment regards this.

 

An analogy for those in the gaming world would be the announcement of Left 4 Dead 2 when it was considered Half Life: Episode 3 was going to be announced instead and as such the backlash of disappointment magnified the insignificant factors attached with the announcement of Left 4 Dead 2.

 

Tis how I personally feel anyways, and having the luxury of being a latecomer to the WoT series (All but KoD was out, and it was out by the time I'd finished reading them) I think I avoided the disappointment which came from books not centred around Rand.

 

I think to state one way or another how Egwene's adventures affects RJs readership figures without the facts to hand is pointless. There will be those who like it, and those who dislike it. Logically to me, those who dislike it will be more vocal so while the 'the amount of vitriol accumulated about those books could be viewed from space' it would therefore appear that this is the majority view - and reading these forums sometimes I feel every thread dissembles into how they dislike Elayne / Egwene / Perrin.

 

 

Aside, Arkelias after reading your posts I have to usually doublecheck I am on the WoT forums, given how much you dislike about the series! :p Sure this place is for discussion and an exchanging of views, but you don't exchange views, just constantly reel out how much certain aspects of the books displease you, and how similar things have been handled better in book X and series Y. Maybe this is because WoT is one of the only 'high fantasy' series I've read though.

 

But yeah. The point of me posting this? None per se, just when I see people posting this I feel the need to offer my point of view, as I get the impression that it is considered the norm to dislike Elayne et al - when for reasons I put forward earlier, it is not necessarily the case.

 

Apologies for the essay, I tried to break it up and make it easier to read!

[Mr. Micawber]

Off topic to the original post, but the way I view WoT is as a whole series, one continuous tale that has to be broken apart for conveniences / practical reasons, I dont really go through each book going 'good, good, excellent, bad, rubbish, okay, boring' etc. As such, the slower pace to the later books for me is expected, and for me this in no way detracts from the series in the slightest - setting the scene, building up events is needed to establish a connection, building a bond with the characters and adds to the WoT series for me.

 

I would much rather hear extensively about the events with Elayne, Egwene et al first hand, rather than reading Rand muse how Elayne secured the throne with relative ease or Egwene dominated the rebels and moulded the White Tower whole - which to outsiders and those not privy to all the information would seem to be the case.

 

I think some of the hate is more for how long it was 'dragged out' for... For me, this hints that perhaps waiting for so long in between books is the real reason for discontent so I agree with Arkelias comment regards this.

 

An analogy for those in the gaming world would be the announcement of Left 4 Dead 2 when it was considered Half Life: Episode 3 was going to be announced instead and as such the backlash of disappointment magnified the insignificant factors attached with the announcement of Left 4 Dead 2.

 

Tis how I personally feel anyways, and having the luxury of being a latecomer to the WoT series (All but KoD was out, and it was out by the time I'd finished reading them) I think I avoided the disappointment which came from books not centred around Rand.

 

I think to state one way or another how Egwene's adventures affects RJs readership figures without the facts to hand is pointless. There will be those who like it, and those who dislike it. Logically to me, those who dislike it will be more vocal so while the 'the amount of vitriol accumulated about those books could be viewed from space' it would therefore appear that this is the majority view - and reading these forums sometimes I feel every thread dissembles into how they dislike Elayne / Egwene / Perrin.

 

 

Aside, Arkelias after reading your posts I have to usually doublecheck I am on the WoT forums, given how much you dislike about the series! :p Sure this place is for discussion and an exchanging of views, but you don't exchange views, just constantly reel out how much certain aspects of the books displease you, and how similar things have been handled better in book X and series Y. Maybe this is because WoT is one of the only 'high fantasy' series I've read though.

 

But yeah. The point of me posting this? None per se, just when I see people posting this I feel the need to offer my point of view, as I get the impression that it is considered the norm to dislike Elayne et al - when for reasons I put forward earlier, it is not necessarily the case.

 

Apologies for the essay, I tried to break it up and make it easier to read!

 

Mate, when you've been reading as long as I have, you're going to have some serious problems with how the series developed in the last three to four books. If anything it would be unusual to come to a forum dedicating to discussing a major series that's been around over twenty years and not find people sorely pissed off about something or other.

[Arkelias]

Aside, Arkelias after reading your posts I have to usually doublecheck I am on the WoT forums, given how much you dislike about the series! :p Sure this place is for discussion and an exchanging of views, but you don't exchange views, just constantly reel out how much certain aspects of the books displease you, and how similar things have been handled better in book X and series Y.

 

I know many of my posts come across this way.  However, I've actually changed my mind on a number of issues.  I'll trot out one of my arguments and people like Maj will give me good responses.  I've been forced to re-examine many of my longer held views, and admit that I was wrong.

 

That's not true of every point mind you, but I certainly view the series in a more positive light after spending some time posting on these boards.  Die hard fans who are willing to discuss things have taught me a new appreciation for the series as a whole.

 

Besides, the series isn't over yet.  Until it is I have to reserve final judgement.  I could find out that most of my complaints are unfounded and addressed by the last three books.  Regardless, if the series ends with a strong finale my overall opinion will improve and I'll probably have a lot fewer complaints.

 

Most of my vitriol comes from the decade of crap RJ lobbed at us.  KoD signalled the end of that era, and hopefully Sanderson continues the trend.

 

 

That said, without asses like me all the conversations would be:

 

"Wow, the Wheel of Time is great.  Does anyone else think the WoT is great?"

 

"Yeah, I think it rocks too!"

 

Think about all the interesting discussions I've started just by grousing about the latter half of the series!  Now on to disecting your post ;)

 

I dont really go through each book going 'good, good, excellent, bad, rubbish, okay, boring' etc.

 

It was impossible to do otherwise when you got one book every three years.  Especially when the first six were AMAZING.  Beyond amazing.  The story pulled me in and I stayed up well past midnight many times as I followed the Edmond Field's crew.

 

When every book came out I'd buy it in hardback on release day.  Book seven disappointed me, but I figured hey no big deal everyone has a rough spot.  I figured he'd redeem things in book eight.  I waited three long years only to have that one suck too. 

 

I gritted my teeth and waited three more years for book nine.  The majority of the book once again sucked.  By the time I reached the coolest moment in the WoT (the cleansing) I was already very upset at how bad the rest of the book was.  But, I figured he'd cleansed the source at the end right?

 

Book ten HAD to rock because now I'd get to see what the Asha'man and Aes Sedai thought about the source being cleansed.  Finally Rand would have a reason to go to the Black Tower and unseat Taim.  These were major moments I was looking forward to, and I eagerly waited three more years for Crossroads of Twilight.

 

When the book came out I was livid.  It didn't deal with the cleansing.  It didn't show me the Asha'man's reaction.  Rand didn't reclaim the BT, in fact he wasn't even in the book except for a couple of short scenes.  CoT broke me.  For over a decade I'd been waiting for a book that recaptured the first six books, but it never came.

 

When Knife of Dreams came out I didn't buy it.  I'd vowed never to touch another RJ book.  Now, I never believed he'd sold out like so many people suggested.  I just believed he'd lost control of the story, and even wondered if dementia was setting in.  I was finally sitting in an airport and they lost my luggage.  I had hours to kill and nothing to do.

 

I happened across KoD for $4.99 for the hardcover.  That's right, in an airport a hardcover book was selling fo $5.  That only happens when no on will buy the book.  So, I reluctantly forked over my five bucks and started reading.

 

In that book were two scenes that drove me nuts.  The first was Rand losing his hand.  The second was the trolloc attack on the manor, which is the topic of this thread.  You've heard my opinions on it, and why I think it was poorly done.

 

I would much rather hear extensively about the events with Elayne, Egwene et al first hand, rather than reading Rand muse how Elayne secured the throne with relative ease or Egwene dominated the rebels and moulded the White Tower whole - which to outsiders and those not privy to all the information would seem to be the case.

 

You mean like when Mat flashes back to the fight with Couladin that was glossed over?  I can understand how that feeling can be annoying.

 

I dont' think he should recap either Elayne taking the lion throne or Egwene taking the white tower.  I think Elayne's quest was too long is all.  It should have been shortened to one or possibly two books at most.  Egwene's story arc is one of my favorites and I'm not sure I'd change anything about that one.

 

I think to state one way or another how Egwene's adventures affects RJs readership figures without the facts to hand is pointless. There will be those who like it, and those who dislike it. Logically to me, those who dislike it will be more vocal so while the 'the amount of vitriol accumulated about those books could be viewed from space' it would therefore appear that this is the majority view - and reading these forums sometimes I feel every thread dissembles into how they dislike Elayne / Egwene / Perrin.

 

Stop by Amazon.com sometime and look at the rating each of the books got.  You will see that the later books have a much lower rating.  CoT has a 1.5 star avergage after literally thousands of reviews. If you take the time to read thoe reviews you will find complaint after complaint about Elayne and Perrin's arc.

 

That's hardly scientific proof, but its definitely suggestive.

 

Anyway, thanks for your post Amayahoshi.  I know my opinions are hardly popular, but its nice to see how friendly and respectful most posters are anyway.

 

Nihongo desuka?

[deathgate]

And, of course, he absented himself. I'd say this did more than anything else to tip the battle in favor of Our Guys, because he channels the TP, which is an amazingly destructive weapon - and an undetectable one.

 

Can't be sure of that. Even Cadsuane doesn't know what all here little ornaments do.

[Mr. Micawber]

And, of course, he absented himself. I'd say this did more than anything else to tip the battle in favor of Our Guys, because he channels the TP, which is an amazingly destructive weapon - and an undetectable one.

 

Can't be sure of that. Even Cadsuane doesn't know what all here little ornaments do.

 

You might be right, but I'm nearly certain BBWBA says it's undetectable. However, we know that the Gholam can sense it in Ebou Dar, and that suggests that Mat's amulet and Cads' ter'angreals might be able to do something about it. Although I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the True Power can harm a Gholam, seeing as Aginor almost certainly used bits of TP in creating the Shadowspawn.

[Jong]

I think traveling is a game changer that makes armies obsolete. If you have a powerful long ranged attack, and you can run away faster than the other guy the cheapest thing to do it to run backwards while attacking. The thing that really surprises me about the 100k trolloc attack is that Rand and Co. decided to defend the manor instead of kiting or just running away. They should have made a gateway 2-3 miles away from the manor. Then gone through once the Trollocs were really close. Made a big circle. And nuked the whole area from 3 miles away.

[Bob T Dwarf]

To Amayahoshi -

 

I agree with you.  Elayne doesn't bother me.  Nor does Egwene.  Nor any of the other main characters.  I don't begrudge any of them their scenes.

 

What bothers me, and I suspect some others is how slowly any of the characters develop.  How many reams and reams of paper it takes for Nynaeve to quit yanking on her braid 5 times per page.  An objective reader would almost have to conclude that every character in the series is afflicted with OCD based on how often they each repeat the same series of actions over and over again for 11 books.

 

It wasted time.  It wasted space.  It wasted my patience and goodwill.  It was utterly unnecessary.  What was important was not how steadfastly they were all remaining the same, but how they come to grow-up and accept the changes they must all undergo.  We need to see them grow and change.  All we've seen is how they resist change.

 

Then there's the Forsaken.  Bogeymen out of time and legend.  Evil, evil, EVIL ... until you have to rub up against them for 11 books. ... and see, over and over again, how silly and foolish they are.  Other than what Semirhage does to Cabriana Mecandes and her Warder, all of that EVIL happens offscreen.  Yes, we get to see Graendal's mind-raped pets, but it's in a way that doesn't evoke the true horror of their circumstance.  Not even Semi ends up feeling menacing.  At the end-of-the-day, the oh-so-evil Forsaken all come off as nothing more than monsters under the bed, capable of little more than frightening small children.

 

The mass murder conducted by Semirhage in Seanchan is dealt with in one quick paragraph.  We get pages and pages and pages and pages of sniffing and skirt-smoothing, but only six or eight short lines about the murder of the whole Seanchan hierarchy.  Less than you'd get in a newspaper obituary for some homeless drunk found dead in an alley.

 

The trivial is aggrandized ad nauseum and the vital is trivialized ad absurdum.

 

That doesn't make for great literature.

[Mr. Micawber]

To Amayahoshi -

 

I agree with you.  Elayne doesn't bother me.  Nor does Egwene.  Nor any of the other main characters.  I don't begrudge any of them their scenes.

 

What bothers me, and I suspect some others is how slowly any of the characters develop.  How many reams and reams of paper it takes for Nynaeve to quit yanking on her braid 5 times per page.  An objective reader would almost have to conclude that every character in the series is afflicted with OCD based on how often they each repeat the same series of actions over and over again for 11 books.

 

It wasted time.  It wasted space.  It wasted my patience and goodwill.  It was utterly unnecessary.  What was important was not how steadfastly they were all remaining the same, but how they come to grow-up and accept the changes they must all undergo.  We need to see them grow and change.  All we've seen is how they resist change.

 

Then there's the Forsaken.  Bogeymen out of time and legend.  Evil, evil, EVIL ... until you have to rub up against them for 11 books. ... and see, over and over again, how silly and foolish they are.  Other than what Semirhage does to Cabriana Mecandes and her Warder, all of that EVIL happens offscreen.  Yes, we get to see Graendal's mind-raped pets, but it's in a way that doesn't evoke the true horror of their circumstance.  Not even Semi ends up feeling menacing.  At the end-of-the-day, the oh-so-evil Forsaken all come off as nothing more than monsters under the bed, capable of little more than frightening small children.

 

The mass murder conducted by Semirhage in Seanchan is dealt with in one quick paragraph.  We get pages and pages and pages and pages of sniffing and skirt-smoothing, but only six or eight short lines about the murder of the whole Seanchan hierarchy.  Less than you'd get in a newspaper obituary for some homeless drunk found dead in an alley.

 

The trivial is aggrandized ad nauseum and the vital is trivialized ad absurdum.

 

That doesn't make for great literature.

 

Game, set, and match. This bothers me to no end. And it irks me that we know full well how great the series could be, had been, and yet we were left with almost a self-parody during the last decade.

 

 

[Jong]

Book seven disappointed me, but I figured hey no big deal everyone has a rough spot.  I figured he'd redeem things in book eight.  I waited three long years only to have that one suck too.  

 

I gritted my teeth and waited three more years for book nine.  The majority of the book once again sucked.  By the time I reached the coolest moment in the WoT (the cleansing) I was already very upset at how bad the rest of the book was.  But, I figured he'd cleansed the source at the end right?

 

Book ten HAD to rock because now I'd get to see what the Asha'man and Aes Sedai thought about the source being cleansed.  Finally Rand would have a reason to go to the Black Tower and unseat Taim.  These were major moments I was looking forward to, and I eagerly waited three more years for Crossroads of Twilight.

 

When the book came out I was livid.  It didn't deal with the cleansing.  It didn't show me the Asha'man's reaction.  Rand didn't reclaim the BT, in fact he wasn't even in the book except for a couple of short scenes.  CoT broke me.  For over a decade I'd been waiting for a book that recaptured the first six books, but it never came.

 

Seems to sum up my impression of books 7-11 as well. The WOT books 1-6 are the best fantasy I ever read. Starting from Duami's Well (take 2) in COS and culminating in COT, each book we got less quality time with the 5 Emond's Field protagonists we care about as the plot lines progressively became less focused, the prose (which never lacked for detailed descriptions) increasingly fixated on endless descriptions of irrelevant minutiae of personal attire and setting. We got to meet numerous redundant supporting characters and their POVs, and things just ground to a near halt in terms of the plot and character development of the main 5 protagonists we cared so much about for the first 6 books. Reading about Perrin stuck in the same rut for 4 books was truly painful. I stoped thinking about WOT for like 5 years and then borrowed KOD from a friend last year after I read that Jordan had passed.

 

I was glad to read KOD and it seemed to regain much of the focus andbegan work on cleaning up much of the muddle. I think a new author like Sanderson taking over is perhaps the best thing that could have happened to the WOT.

[Bob T Dwarf]

BTW, it was Lord of Chaos that was the bridge too far for me.

 

In the first five books seven Forsaken had been eliminated.  The Light seemed to be making progress, and the end seemed within reach in a reasonable timeframe.

 

Then here comes "The Great Transmigration of the Fallen Forsaken."  Osan'gaar, Aran'gar, and Moridin.  At least half of the progress negated in a trice.  And, no assurance that all of the others wouldn't make a miraculous reappearance, too.  And, sure enough, who shows up again but Lanfear/Cyndane.  Now there's a statement from Moridin ( probably mistaken ) that Sammael is  back.

 

That was the BIG neon sign proclaiming, "Not so fast.  We're making too much money here.  We've gotta string this out a LOT longer."

 

To me, Transmigration was the great betrayal of everything I had invested in the series.

 

Jordan shot himself in the foot with LoC.  It apparently felt so good he did it four more times before he got back to telling the story I'd been paying to read.

[Swithin]

Hey everyone, first post. I just wanted to take the opportunity to string together the following sentence:

 

I agree with the OP about the OP being OP.

 

(In order, "Original Poster", "One Power", and "Over-Powered".)

[Nightstrike]

I like the supernatural/magical elements in fantasy. And I like the way RJ wrote the One Power. For me, it's almost "the more the better". If it's interesting enough to read about. And I think it is so in WoT.

 

As I said before, there aren't many women above Moiraine in strength. Most men haven't yet reached their full potential. Sure, they could cause the Breaking 3 000 years earlier. But channelers are relatively few today.

 

As for the "Lord of the Grave" bringing people back, he's supposed to be the dark counterpart to the Creator. He's got to have some powerful tricks. It's not like he will perform it for every one of his followers.

 

 

[Mr. Micawber]

Bob, I'd dispute one thing.

 

I didn't like the Gars or Cyndane, but Elan Morin coming back was pretty damn essential.

 

Elan Morin is the only character - with the possible exception of Herid Fel - who understand what is actually at stake in a Shadow victory.

 

Unlike the other Chosen, he joined because he recognized that the Big Guy represented the end of everything.

 

The other Chosen are either ignorant or delusional about what the Big Guy "remaking the world in his image" means. I don't know for sure, but what we do know, along with Elan Morin, is that whatever the Big Guy does will not allow for the continued existence of homo sapiens.

 

Perhaps, however, Demandred does know. He seems to be motivated by one thought, which is his victory over Lews Therin. Indeed, if LTT is to be believed, and this is a huge thing never mentioned in the BBWBA, Demandred did not merely vie for great honor with Lews Therin only to come in perpetually second place. He was also a competitor for Ilyena. Frankly, he looked at the First War as his last chance to surpass LTT, or at least for once be acknowledged as his equal. Based on Rand's own inability to understand why his subordinates might dislike him and based on LTT's remembrances of how he had never given Sammael a finger less than his due, I rather suspect that LTT might have been brilliant, but he absolutely lacked the important skill of letting other people win once in a while to keep them happy. He may have been too much Michael Jordan for his own good, because he seems to have consistently pushed the best generals of the Light into the arms of the Shadow - all at a time when the BBWBA explicitly says the Light was winning.

 

Based on the scar and other points - like where Graendal or someone muses that Sammael has greater cause to hate LTT - probably LTT humiliated him or perhaps put him in his place before he went over. But then everyone among the Chosen admits that Demandred's hate makes Sammael's look tiny in comparison. Even Elan Morin recognizes this.

 

I'd say that Demandred's only goal is to drive a stake into the heart of the DragonSoul, and when he does so, he can probably die for all he cares. Because unlike the other Chosen, he has lost everything in his entire life in a direct contest with LTT, including it seems the love of his life. At this point, I doubt that Demandred cares if he doesn't get to rule the world after the Big Guy's victory either.

[Nightstrike]

Interesting points - especially about Demandred.  :)

[Alternate34]

The power creep isn't an oversight.  There are several factors that caused it.

 

(1)  The Moiraine argument, that Moiraine was exceptional and is now thoroughly outclassed, is a poor one.  First, she is exceptional in certain areas.  These do not include Earth or Fire, the primary offensive powers.  She does display an amazing ability in Healing with the angreal when she takes Tam from near death.  There are few characters that have been shown to do that.

 

(2)  The power creep is contributed to by the improvement of characters abilities and the increasing strength of characters.  There are several reasons for this.  First, the Pattern is adjusting and weaving out more channelers for The Last Battle (proven by increase in False Dragons before Rand declared and increase in general craziness).  Second, new groups of channelers are being discovered.  Third, old weaves are being rediscovered from the Age of Legends.  Fourth, male channelers are on average individually stronger than women and on average stronger than women in offensive weaves that rely on fire and earth.  Fifth, training in offensive weaves is improving.  Sixth, circles of men and women are being deployed.  There are probably more things I am forgetting.  

 

Some of these factors are additive, some multiplicative.  That the One Power has increased vastly in strength cannot be seen as an oversight considering all of these factors are fairly predicitable fairly quickly as the reader increased their understanding of how the world functioned.  It really isn't surprising.

 

(3) Considering those factors, one other element leads the reader to perceive power increasing swiftly first hand: all of the main characters are either powerful channelers or they are surrounded by them, often of their own accord.

 

That being said, 100,000 was going somewhat overboard.  It isn't a fatal flaw proving that things are just way to powerful.

[Mr Ares]

They will be weighed against the battles that have already taken place in the series. Having 100,000 trollocs casually wiped out makes any smaller battles trivial if there are any channelers involved in them.

No it doesn't. Not all channelers have the strength of those channelers, nor do they know the weaves that were used.

 

Not at all. Why would it?

The casual slaughter of ten thousand men? That's a rarity in warfare. Mat completely destorys the enemy army. To the last man. To only light casualties. It's really no different to the Rand example, except Rand had an army of channelers, Mat didn't. He had to rely on cold steel.

 

This fight didn't involve the one power, which is part of why its one of the best in the series.

Non-sense. Look at Dumai's Wells, which is the best battle in the series. That made heavy use of the OP. It is not the use of the Power or lack of it that makes a good battle.

 

This makes whoever sent the trollocs a moron.

Why? Sure, a few Dreadlords could have evened the odds. But Dreadlords are not common. Trollocs are ten a penny. They were almost overrun even without Dreadlords, and that required LTT showing up to show them new weaves, something that couldn't have been predicted.

 

I see a huge flaw in your argument

No you don't. The Chosen knew Rand had the CK - they'd just faced him at the Cleansing. So they could know what he would bring. Taim doesn't. Neither of them know about the new weaves. So, if it was the Chosen, they would have to know Rand wouldn't use Callandor or the CK (for example, they'd heard Rand had left them elsewhere), but someone not so knowledgeable couldn't know he had that sort of firepower, nor that he would invent new weaves.

It makes no sense that they made it through the ways, but we'll overlook that.

It does make sense, if you accept that MS has changed. Which we know it is capable of doing.

This was a bad plan with an even worse execution.

While "overwhelm them through sheer weight of numbers is hardly a genius plan, it would have worked had LTT not conveniently taken charge. So the execuation isn't flawed. The plan was blunt force, but blunt force can get the job done, if you don't mind heavy losses (the Shadow don't).

 

Worse, it shows what Rand can do to slaughter a nearly infinite amount without a Sa'Angreal.

It wasn't Rand alone.

 

Which general does the Shadow have that's made intelligent decisions?

Demandred.

 

This completely missed my point.

No it doesn't.

Not participating in a war is not the same as an intelligent decision.

Not participating in a war can be a very intelligent decision.

Sammael wasn't intentionally sitting out the war so the light would tear itself apart.

He was ecuring his position in Illian. He was luring Rand to attack him.

 

Yes, but winning battles is a part of winning a war. Or do you disagree?

It's common. But they haven't started yet. They've set the Light against itself.

 

The are winning not because of anything that has happened in the series

Of course they are. Any careful reading of the series would show that.

They have to evil dastardly scheme that's about to be fulfilled.

Let the Lord of Chaos rule.

 

Irrelevant conjecture on your part.

Quite relevant. These are all unknown quantities.

 

I'm operating off of facts

The ones you don't choose to ignore, at least.

As far as we know the Shadow controls no nations.

They controlled several. But the amount of territory controlled isn't hugely important at this stage. And there are a number of unknown factors. That's important. You can't say the Shadow isn't controlling these places.

There's no reason we should see the shadow back up its shadowspawn with dreadlords?

No reason why the Shadow should waste all its Dreadlords by putting them in front of the enemy.

 

The light looks ignorant?

Yes.

The Light spents its time bitching about clothing, social standing and who slighted who.

Corrected for you.

 

Can you point to a single forsaken plan that's come to fruition in the first eleven books?

Set the Light against itself. Convince the Seanchan to invade and reconquer Hawkwing's empire, and have them believe the Dragon Reborn should kneel to the Empress. Infiltrate Darkfrineds throughout the WT. Have a Darkfriend run the BT. Cause famine. Destroy reality (in progress).

 

You give callandor to someone you trust implicitly.

Best person to betray you. After all, you might expect betrayal from those you distrust.

They kill the guy who did it and pass callandor to the next Asha'man / AS circle just like Rand had set up when he cleansed Saidin.

Unless the guy who did it takes it for himself. Or maybe you just end up giving it to a Dreadlord.

 

If there is no 'big field' where two armies are meeting then what exactly is Tarmon Gaidon?

Oh, there'll be a big field. But it won't be good on one side, evil on the other. It will be good infiltrated by evil against evil. And the real battle, the one that matters, is the one between Rand and Shai'tan. Who is winning. Remember, reality isn't in the best of health at the moment.

If there is a war between two armies the army with more Sa'Angreal and channelers will win.

You clearly understand nothing of war. Having more does not mean you will win. It might make things easier. And a lot of channelers, a lot of sa'angreal, says nothing about the evil god who is your real enemy. What have you got to stop Him?

 

A few spies is not going to stop Rand from winning.

Spies, saboteurs. Alone, maybe their not enough. But they are not alone. You refuse to see it in the context of the bigger picture. They cause confusion among the Light's forces at the critical moment, and the Light are scattered by the Trolloc army. Guy with a sa'angreal isn't enough to win.

 

Actually yes it is a numbers game.

No, it isn't. War doesn't work that way.

If I have 100 AS and you have 10 spies you can do some damage to me, but I'm still going to win. Your 10 aren't going to kill my hundred even if you get surprise.

But it's not "My ten, your hundred." Some of your hundred are my ten. That's the point. And when my ten act, they don't need to kill your 90. They just need to throw them off balance for when my Trolloc army hits. My ten are not alone, nor is my Trolloc army. You have Shadowspawn in front, Dreadlords in front, and Dreadlords within.

 

In a normal fight the side with more skilled channelers wins. 50 shadow channlers are not going to stop 500 light side channelers. To suggest otherwise is ludicrous.

To suggest that they would need to is ludicrous. You don't always know who the enemy is. You don't know who is acting against you. 50 shadow channelers, acting at the right time, with the element of surprise, will slow down those 450. Then the army in front overruns the Light positions, because it's not a matter of one or the other, it's both. At once.

 

This is further true because Rand has two Sa'Angreal the shadow simply cannot match.

You neglect the evil god the Shadow has that Rand cannot match.

 

You're repeating yourself now.

It's the only way you'll learn.

Having the AS look like incompetent fools takes away from the series and is unrealistic in my opinion.

That's not exactly what happened. Them being as successful as they were is reasonable. But they are blinded by that success, comfortable in their position. As you would expect. Mistakes creep in. They become more insular. The Tower, when young, would not be making these mistakes.

Its also degrading to women because it suggests that they can't look beyond their own pride long enough to make an intelligent decision.

It does nothing of the sort. And it's patronising to women to suggest that they are perfect and incapable of mistakes. That doesn't lead to good characters or interesting drama. It is not a "women" problem, it is a human problem, and specifically an AS problem. If the AS were men, they could still make the same mistakes (or they might make completely different ones).

 

You are a fan boy through and through, and will brook no criticism of the WoT no matter how well founded it is.

Show me some well founded criticsim, and we'll see. You haven't provided any.

Unfortunately, in too many instances RJ handled it badly.

Yet you've been unable to show why those instances were badly handled.

 

Nearly all of them being flawed not only makes no sense, but it isn't very fun to read about. So often people talk about good political intrigue, and why Jordan's isn't. Its because most of his characters are morons who make irrational decisions.

Most people are. But you've said nothing to substantiate your claim.

 

Four times counts as constant? In eleven books?

Yes, bringing back four forsaken in 11 books feels contrived.

Constant, not contrived. And it was hinted at as early as book one. It was always a part of RJ's plan.

It suggests that all the work Rand went through to kill them was pointless

Well, remember what I said about the Shadow winning....

How are they winning again?

Well, famine, setting the light against itself, infiltrating them thoroughly, rats everywhere, saidar incapable of stopping them, or the food spoiling, an insane tyrant as their foe, reality starting to break down - the dead walking, corridors shifting, the ripples.

None of the Ta'veren, Elayne, Min, Avi, Egwene, Lan, Nyneave, Moraine have died.

Mat and Avi both died. But this is unimportant. It really shows your inability to look beyond the surface. We see the heroes win, undoubtedly. But look closer. We see the Shadow continually advancing in the background. The Light's victories might be big, flashy and obvious, while the Shaodw's are insidious, omnipresent, and far, far bigger.

Samael did nothing in Illian for several books, and then got crushed so badly by Rand that the Dragon lost hardly any troops.

Except for that army of Rand he chewed up.

Rand took tear and Callandor away from them.

They didn't have it to begin with. The plan was for him to get it and them to take it. he had ot take it first.

Rand took Andor when he killed Ravhin.

He took Caemlyn. Since then, Andor has been in a civil war, with Elayne trying to secure her rule after the damage caused by Rand and Rahvin.

They don't control Arad Doman

They did. Whehter or not they still do is in question.

They don't control the Shaido.

Didn't have to. Asmo created a threat to Rand's legitimacy in passin, as a distraction, and that has taken 7 books to clear up. They might not be a major threat, but they have been a consistent minor threat. They held down Perrin. All this, just in passing.  

 

They don't control the White Tower and have not succeeded in turning it against Rand.

They have succeeded in turning it against itself. An incompetent Amyrlin. A siege. An Amyrlin imprisoned. The Ajahs at one another's throats. And Elaida's decree, from Alviarin, and thus the Shadow, drives a wedge between Rand and the Tower (as well as that kidnapping thing), and between the nations and Rand. You have not shown any flaws in my examples.

 

Face it, they've failed everywhere they meet Rand.

And succeeded everywhere else.

Go read A Song of fire & Ice

I have. i read it so thoroughly, I even know the title of the series.

 

When did this happen?

ACoS. The army Rand sends against Sammael as a distraction gets attacked, and he smashes every group that forms. Even though there are Asha'man there.

Oooh...he joined a plan that failed miserably.

Through no fault of his. He did a good job of turning Rand's attention to Illian. Just Rahvin let Morgase slip through his fingers. Something beyond his control.

 

And look how effective those wards were?

Indeed. Rand nearly died in SL, and would have done if not for Moridin saving him.

In a matter of minutes Rand overwhelmed the city and took it from Sammael anyway.

He couldn't keep it unless he killed Sammael. And if he did that, the city falls anyway.

He lost and lost quickly to a half trained boy who herds sheep.

He lost because Mashadar killed him, after Moridin saved that boy who herds sheep. Rand won, as usual, via a fluke.

How do either of these changes make it so Mashin Shin wouldn't kill trollocs in the ways? They don't.

They show MS can change. That's what's important.

 

This was not presented as a mystery.

Yes, it was, unless you only count things as mysteries if someone goes "Hmm, that's mysterious." We don't need it spelled out for us. We know the Ways are dangerous. Yet these Trollocs survived. How? We don't know. We can give it a good guess. We don't need our hands held.

 

So when the first trolloc gets up from the ground and speaks to Rand in EotW you considered them to be cannon fodder?

How about when Rand smashes that Trolloc army at the end of EotW? Face it, they were there to be a menace and get killed. Nothing's changed, other than them being a little less menacing and a little more dead, as you would expect given our heroes learning more.

 

If they poison a well some people die. If they launch a deathgate some people die. If they call down lightning some people die. They the light side fries the spy who launched the lightning or the deathgate, and the traitor is killed.

They have to catch him and kill him before the Shadow's army arrives. If they wipe out the Trollocs, they are getting taken to pieces by the Dreadlords. If they are facing the Dreadlords, they are getting killed by the Trollocs.

 

The bickering drove a number of people from the series.

So? Any number of things can alienate the reader. On the whole, this hugely popular series only became more so. A small minority stopped reading. The rest continued. And the bickering wwasn't exactly a huge change.

 

Because Moraine was exceptional too.

So?

What she can do with an angreal is not even close to what a bunch of nameless Asha'man and AS accomplish in the later book.

You forget: new weaves. Power isn't everything. Also, forces spread out under cover are harder to hit than a huge mass of them. Tactically, different situations.

So your argument is that Taim shouldn't have attacked at night because 'it was only trollocs'?

Pretty much. They don't care about Trolloc lives. If they can win by day, but with more casualties, so what? Send them anyway.

 

We don't know that she reduced Shara to chaos.

We do.

She's intimated that she's been there, but we've seen nothing to show what effect she had there.

We see a Sharan in KoD. That's a huge change. We hear rumours, we know she kidnapped their rulers, then we see a member of this isolationist culture.

 

This is the worst argument I've heard in a while.

What, we don't know what he's done because we haven't been told, but we do know he's been successfulat it is a bad argument? Not so. 

 

Good generals win battles.

Great generals win without fighting them.

 

Also, you have shown no evidence of Chosen incompetence. A lack of genius moves on their part is not enough. You have to show them fail, not their lack of success. Stop continually moving the goalposts. "They're idiots." "X isn't." "What successes has X had?"

 

My opinion of what someone that powerful and ancient should be able to accomplish is just a bit higher.

They are not that ancient and powerful. That's the point.

 

Lord of the Rings. A Song of Fire and Ice.

Irrelevant.

Memory, Sorrow and Thorn. Robin Hobb's Assassin Trilogy. Runelords.

Not read.

Do you need me to go on?

I'd like you to say something relevant. How are these comparable?

 

Not a single person at the manor exhibits any of these problems though.  They all instantly and flawlessly picked up the weaves.

You don't know that.

[Amayahoshi]

 

Mate, when you've been reading as long as I have, you're going to have some serious problems with how the series developed in the last three to four books. If anything it would be unusual to come to a forum dedicating to discussing a major series that's been around over twenty years and not find people sorely pissed off about something or other.

 

Hmm, I guess we disagree then, as I liked the way the books 7-11 have progressed! The only sore point I have is the Sea Folk - something about them just irritates me, though Harine's PoV went some way to fix that. I have read a few series - The main Dragonlance books, Raven chronicles and James Barclay's other short series, so I have at least a little to contrast WoT with... and I wouldn't have the WoT any other way if I'm honest.

 

 

What bothers me, and I suspect some others is how slowly any of the characters develop.  How many reams and reams of paper it takes for Nynaeve to quit yanking on her braid 5 times per page.  An objective reader would almost have to conclude that every character in the series is afflicted with OCD based on how often they each repeat the same series of actions over and over again for 11 books.

 

 

The OCD comment is a little OTT but I understand the sentiment :p  They never grated on me though, I just took them for mannerisms of each character, and as such expected them. Could they have been toned down? Sure. I would argue that it is these little nuances / habits from each character that gives them their charm though. Elayne lifting her chin usually leads to something funny - especially from Mats PoV!

 

One thing I don't like is the implications of cutting down on things like braid pulling, as where do you stop? Would RJ think, 'you know what, I'm not going to describe each room in detail. The carpet is blue, the AS dress is green and Rand doesn't like killing women. Thatll do.'

 

 

It wasted time.  It wasted space.  It wasted my patience and goodwill.  It was utterly unnecessary.  What was important was not how steadfastly they were all remaining the same, but how they come to grow-up and accept the changes they must all undergo.  We need to see them grow and change.  All we've seen is how they resist change.

 

 

 

Again, for me the time / space was not wasted - would it be more interesting if Rand was tackling issues that to the readers are prominent, in the short term, yeah. Rushing to sort everything out would mean that the books would be over now most probably though, and for me would have lost its 'epic' feel. Though I get the impression that for some in this thread it already has, and they are reading on hoping for it it to return :D I wouldn't conclude however that the books were deliberately dragged out so they could make more money... but maybe I'm just naive!

 

Regards the Forsaken being fools... I wouldn't go that far :p Sure, they could have handled certain events / schemes better, but showing the Forsaken failing I think is simply a motif of the series - things are not what they always seem, and change comes when it chooses too, not for when youve planned it sorta thing.

 

 

"Wow, the Wheel of Time is great.  Does anyone else think the WoT is great?"

 

"Yeah, I think it rocks too!"

 

Think about all the interesting discussions I've started just by grousing about the latter half of the series!  Now on to disecting your post ;)

 

 

Fair point, thanks for being our Dark Knight I guess :D

 

 

It was impossible to do otherwise when you got one book every three years...

 

 

Which is part of the point I was making, that I had the 'advantage' that all the books bar 11 were available to me, I didn't have to wait a long time between each book, stewing over it and expecting the same as which books 1-6 provided.

 

If I were to describe books 7-11, they would be like the middle chapter of a film, not a great deal goes on, and you feel its just in the way of the big climatic ending... but if you were to take the middle chapter away the ending would not be the same, and would lose its appeal as there was less invested in it. Hopefully that makes sense! In the context of a thread discussing the 'cheapness' of the OP it doesn't but anywhoo!

 

 

You mean like when Mat flashes back to the fight with Couladin that was glossed over?  I can understand how that feeling can be annoying.

 

 

Completely forgot about that.. which I think sums up why glossing over potential key moments is bad! But yeah, agree wholeheartedly here, was looking forward to see how Mat's memories / Ta'avernness / luck fared here :D

 

Finally!

 

Nihonjin ('go' denotes language, not sure if you know that :p) dewa arimasen. Watashi wa igirisujin desu.

 

...

 

which is around the point my knowledge of Japanese fails :D  But yeah, am learning Japanese at my university, and am going into my 2nd year of it.

 

 

To contribute something on topic to this thread, I think that the scale of the OP was always going to go up - it was inevitable (look at most anime and its generally the case too!). Is this a bad thing? I would say no, aslong as it remains believable, and is grounded in a reality of sorts. By that I mean what rules etc have gone before are not totally rendered useless by new 'omg just discovered talents.' A tweak on them I feel is fine, anything more and it just wouldn't make sense :p

[sheikh chilli]

To Amayahoshi -

 

I agree with you.  Elayne doesn't bother me.  Nor does Egwene.  Nor any of the other main characters.  I don't begrudge any of them their scenes.

 

What bothers me, and I suspect some others is how slowly any of the characters develop.  How many reams and reams of paper it takes for Nynaeve to quit yanking on her braid 5 times per page.  An objective reader would almost have to conclude that every character in the series is afflicted with OCD based on how often they each repeat the same series of actions over and over again for 11 books.

 

It wasted time.  It wasted space.  It wasted my patience and goodwill.  It was utterly unnecessary.  What was important was not how steadfastly they were all remaining the same, but how they come to grow-up and accept the changes they must all undergo.  We need to see them grow and change.  All we've seen is how they resist change.

 

Then there's the Forsaken.  Bogeymen out of time and legend.  Evil, evil, EVIL ... until you have to rub up against them for 11 books. ... and see, over and over again, how silly and foolish they are.  Other than what Semirhage does to Cabriana Mecandes and her Warder, all of that EVIL happens offscreen.  Yes, we get to see Graendal's mind-raped pets, but it's in a way that doesn't evoke the true horror of their circumstance.  Not even Semi ends up feeling menacing.  At the end-of-the-day, the oh-so-evil Forsaken all come off as nothing more than monsters under the bed, capable of little more than frightening small children.

 

The mass murder conducted by Semirhage in Seanchan is dealt with in one quick paragraph.  We get pages and pages and pages and pages of sniffing and skirt-smoothing, but only six or eight short lines about the murder of the whole Seanchan hierarchy.  Less than you'd get in a newspaper obituary for some homeless drunk found dead in an alley.

 

The trivial is aggrandized ad nauseum and the vital is trivialized ad absurdum.

 

That doesn't make for great literature.

 

 

 

you have touched upon a important point. i loved the first 6 books. it had everything you needed in a series. Although i was starting to get annoyed on how the forsaken looked like and far from the super gangsters that jordan would have us believe.

 

 

Then book 7 came and i thought what the hell is this? when book 8,9, and 10 came i had a sense of dejavu. And each time i had to look at the cover to make sure it's actually robert jordan and not some unknown on the book cover. what was worse is that you had 2 sometimes 3 years in between books. you are salivating or perhaps hoping the next book was going to have something worthwhile and then you are given trash books and it breaks your resolve.

 

i think we all knew what was going secretly. it was just a money making filler. i mean its pretty astounding to see 4 books with abolutely hundreds of pages and yet the plot moves bymere inches.

 

 

by the way i dont think book 11 has completely erased the travesty that was books 7-11. you need more than one book to wash away the memories of wasting time on those books.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Mr. Micawber -

 

Excellent points about both LTT and Demandred.

 

Alternate34 -

 

Good points also, although I do think that Jordan hadn't worked it all through when he began the series and found he had to alter and expand OP capabilities as he went.

 

Amayahoshi, again -

 

Fair points, well explained.  For many of us though, it was years between books.  And none of those books justified the interminable wait.

 

I also agree that not all of the character mannerisms should be truncated.  As you say, Elayne lifting her chin does often portend something funny about to happen.  As someone else said a long time ago, there is still "too much faffing about with frocks" though.  Or as someone else put it more recently - "Too many adjectives, not enough verbs."

 

sheikh chilli -

 

I guess I'm a little more forgiving.  KoD did put the series back into the worthwhile column for me.  I can understand entirely how that might not be true for everyone.

 

 

[Arkelias]

Ares, you're slipping.  I'm used to better responses.  Did you have too many beers at lunch or something?

 

The casual slaughter of ten thousand men? That's a rarity in warfare. Mat completely destorys the enemy army. To the last man. To only light casualties. It's really no different to the Rand example, except Rand had an army of channelers, Mat didn't. He had to rely on cold steel.

 

Mat uses a new technology, the repeating crossbow.  He lines up his army in hiding in the treeline on either side of the road, and executes a flawless attack that catches the enemy completely by surprise.  This was a great use of tactics, and is exactly what I mean when I say the shadow has no decent general.

 

Demandred should be Mat's equivalent.  We should see him doing something similar to what Mat did here, using superior tactics to out fox his opponents and crush an army of the light.

 

 

Non-sense. Look at Dumai's Wells, which is the best battle in the series. That made heavy use of the OP. It is not the use of the Power or lack of it that makes a good battle.

 

Dumai's Wells is one of the best battles in the series, because both sides used the one power and it was an actual battle.  The use or lack of the power is what makes a good battle if and when one side has it and the other does not.

 

In the manor Rand had it, the trollocs didn't.  That battle was lackluster as a result.

 

Why? Sure, a few Dreadlords could have evened the odds. But Dreadlords are not common. Trollocs are ten a penny. They were almost overrun even without Dreadlords, and that required LTT showing up to show them new weaves, something that couldn't have been predicted.

 

As I already mentioned dreadlords could have evened the odds a bit by countering the weaves of the people inside, or by nuking the house in the middle of the house and then sending in the trollocs in the confusion. 

 

The plan of attack was laughable.  If the person who launched it actually wanted to succeed he should have come up with a real plan, one that involved dreadlords.

 

No you don't. The Chosen knew Rand had the CK - they'd just faced him at the Cleansing. So they could know what he would bring. Taim doesn't.

 

Yes, I did spot a flaw in your argument.  Its still there, glaring you right in the face.  Taim may not have known about the CK, which is open to debate.  But even assuming you are right EVERYONE knows Rand has Callandor.  Callandor could have smoked the entire trolloc army without any new weaves.

 

Plus, they aren't new weaves.  They are rediscovered weaves.  Rand has displayed many, many abilities from the AoL that the forsaken are aware of.  Why would they be surrpised that he started using some of the old combat weaves after seeing him use travelling?

 

I'd love to see you counter this argument.  I doubt you'll even answer it, and if you do it will be to 'move the goalposts' as you are so fond of saying. 

 

It does make sense, if you accept that MS has changed. Which we know it is capable of doing.

 

So what happened, MS went through therapy and got over its anger?  It decided that trollocs are buddies and now showers them with butterlfies and pixie dust?  No, MS talks about cracking bones, flaying skin and drinking blood. 

 

MS does show the capacity for change by being willing to work with Fain who is essentially an extension of the same evil.  But that in no way suggests that its basic nature changed.  MS is a mindless killer, which would feast on any group that passed through the ways.  Your argument is weak.  Ironic given how you slam the rest of us for our crappy arguments.

 

While "overwhelm them through sheer weight of numbers is hardly a genius plan, it would have worked had LTT not conveniently taken charge. So the execuation isn't flawed. The plan was blunt force, but blunt force can get the job done, if you don't mind heavy losses (the Shadow don't).

 

Unless Rand travelled away.  Or used Callandor.  Neither would have been an option if they were attacked quietly in the middle of the night.  If Saidin blew apart the manor and they collapsed in the rubble with thousands of trollocs ready to attack as they crawled loose then Rand might actually have been in danger.

 

The attack failed, and it shouldn't.  That means it was bungled.  You can try arguing otherwise, but just look foolish doing so.

 

It wasn't Rand alone.

 

It was Rand with 30 channelers.  He'll have a lot more than that at Tarmon Gaidon, and he'll have the CK and Callandor.  That was my point.  The army of the shadow doesn't have a chance.

 

Demandred.

 

I asked you for an argument about the shadow having a decent general, and you answer with one word.  Yeah, great argument.

 

Not participating in a war can be a very intelligent decision.

 

It certainly can be, but deciding not to participate doesn't make you a great general, which is what you were arguing.

 

He was ecuring his position in Illian. He was luring Rand to attack him.

 

Which Rand did.  Remind me how that worked out for Sammael again?  Oh yeah he lost the city in minutes.

 

Of course they are. Any careful reading of the series would show that.

 

Show it how?  If you expect us to accept your arguments you need to make them.  Pointing at the series and saying its in there if only I'm smart enough to see it isn't an argument.  Its a cop out.

 

 

Let the Lord of Chaos rule.

 

This is the shadow's brilliant plan?  Thus far I'm not impressed.  It's slowed Rand, but hasn't stopped him from accomplishing anything.

 

Quite relevant. These are all unknown quantities.

 

No, they aren't relevant.  I asked you to point out shadow victories, and to point out intelligent decisions made by their generals.  I also asked what countries the shadow controls. 

 

In reading 11 books you couldn't find an answer.  Instead you had to point to 'unknown quantities' to point out how maybe there is a shadow victory or intelligent decision.  Maybe there is a single country they control.

 

If you can't point to a concrete example in 11 books, then it doesn't exist.  Once again this makes your argument irrelevant.  Talking about what might be is smoke on the wind.  I'm talking about what has actually happened in the series.

 

Perhaps you could try defending your position using facts instead of your conjecture about what might be going on?

 

The ones you don't choose to ignore, at least.

 

Says the man who's making things up and theorizing to avoid admitting he's wrong on something.

 

They controlled several. But the amount of territory controlled isn't hugely important at this stage. And there are a number of unknown factors. That's important. You can't say the Shadow isn't controlling these places.

 

Yes the Shadow did control several nations.  Until Rand took them away!  Doesn't that sound like Rand winning and the shadow losing to you?  Does them losing country after country mean they have great generals, or that perhaps their generals are lacking?

 

You keep going back to 'unknown factors'.  We can't have a discussion about unknown factors because they are uknown.  I can say the shadow isn't controlling those places, because its not.  They don't control Andor, Illian, Tear or any other nation Rand took from them.

 

Your comment about land not being important smacks of that whole 'moving the goalposts' thing you love so much.  Whether its important or not it still shows that the shadow has had its ass whupped every time it engaged Rand.

 

 

No reason why the Shadow should waste all its Dreadlords by putting them in front of the enemy.

 

If the series is at a point where the armies of the light meet the shadow I'd hardly call putting Dreadlords in the shadow army a waste.  Otherwise they lose automatically, because a few minutes with Callandor is going to destroy over a million shadowspawn.

 

Set the Light against itself. Convince the Seanchan to invade and reconquer Hawkwing's empire, and have them believe the Dragon Reborn should kneel to the Empress. Infiltrate Darkfrineds throughout the WT. Have a Darkfriend run the BT. Cause famine. Destroy reality (in progress).

 

I said plans that came to fruition.  The Seachan invaded, but their empress has married Mat.  They failed to kill Tuon.  So much for that plan.

 

They infiltrated the WT, but haven't stopped Egwene's attempt to weld it back together. We all know she's going to make it whole in book 12.  So much for that plan.

 

Taim is running the black tower, but not at the behest of any of the forsaken.  To our knowledge Taim bows to no man.  He's arrogant and as far as we know came to the shadow on his own, so that's not one of their plans.

 

Anything else you think they did?  Even if you were right about everyone of those assertations that's a dismal track record for 13 of the most powerful channelers from the AoL.

 

Best person to betray you. After all, you might expect betrayal from those you distrust.

 

Give it to Logain who Min has already assured Rand will go on to greater glory.  He's someone Rand can trust.

 

You clearly understand nothing of war.

 

Are you serious?  You're trying to defend an attack launched in the middle of the day, with no channelers backing it, that announced its presence before it attacked, and you're telling me I know nothing of war?

 

Having more does not mean you will win. It might make things easier. And a lot of channelers, a lot of sa'angreal, says nothing about the evil god who is your real enemy. What have you got to stop Him?

 

Having more will not guarantee victory by itself, but last I checked it sure is a huge advantage.  Add in the great captains that Rand has rallied to his banner and you also have the best generals.

 

War isn't all about numbers, but if you think they don't help then clearly you know nothing about war.

 

As far as the evil god right now he is still imprisoned.  He won't actually take part in the army on army battle.  He'll be fighting Rand one on one per the prophecies.  If he was loose and could influence the battle to that degree the series would already be over and he'd have won.

 

Spies, saboteurs. Alone, maybe their not enough. But they are not alone. You refuse to see it in the context of the bigger picture. They cause confusion among the Light's forces at the critical moment, and the Light are scattered by the Trolloc army. Guy with a sa'angreal isn't enough to win.

 

How are they not alone again?  Confusion among the light's forces can hurt, but a well organized larger force led by the best captains of the age is going to survive a few spies causing damage during a fight.  Your argument doesn't wash.

 

No, it isn't. War doesn't work that way.

 

Yes, yes it does.  As I said numbers aren't everything in war, but in nearly every battle in history the army with the significant numerical advantage won.  Add in Mat, Bashere, Rhuarc and the other generals Rand has and you have not just a numerical advantage but a tactical one as well.

 

You have Shadowspawn in front, Dreadlords in front, and Dreadlords within.

 

A dreadlord within has two options.  Fireball his own side (the trollocs) or reveal his true allegiance and be immediatly killed. Its an advantage the shadow has, but not nearly a big enough one.

 

To suggest that they would need to is ludicrous. You don't always know who the enemy is.

 

You do at Tarmon Gaidon.  If you need a diagram I'll draw you one.  The side with the trollocs is the bad guys.  The side with Rand is the good guys. 

 

50 shadow channelers, acting at the right time, with the element of surprise, will slow down those 450.

 

Slow it down, but not enough.  Then they've revealed their presence and get wiped out.  In the meantime Rand uses one of his Sa'Angreal to destroy the closest million trollocs giving the light time to recover.

 

You neglect the evil god the Shadow has that Rand cannot match.

 

You neglect the remaing seals preventing him from intervening directly.

 

It's the only way you'll learn.

 

It's sad that you believe yelling the same thing over and over will eventually convince me.  Logic convinces me.  Insults do not.

 

Show me some well founded criticsim, and we'll see. You haven't provided any.

 

Let me ask you this.  Have you ever seen well founded criticism of the WoT?  I tend to doubt it, since that would require you to admit that you were wrong.  As I've never seen that, not once, I tend to doubt you've ever found any.

 

Yet you've been unable to show why those instances were badly handled.

 

Sure I have, but those are in other threads and I'm not trotting out the arguments here.

 

Most people are. But you've said nothing to substantiate your claim.

 

I've said plenty to substantiate my claim.  I've talked about how good political intrigue requires reader empathy for both sides.  I've talked about how it needs villians that make intelligent decisions. 

 

I've gone in depth on the subject, but as usual you've ignored what I've had to say without countering any of my arguments.

 

Constant, not contrived. And it was hinted at as early as book one. It was always a part of RJ's plan.

 

Whether you'll admit it or not the return of the dead forsaken cheapened the accomplishment of killing them in the first place, and yes that feels contrived.

 

It also makes it easy to bring them back over and over again, which is cheesy.  There are others in this thread making a great argument about this so I won't belabor the point any further.

 

Well, famine, setting the light against itself, infiltrating them thoroughly, rats everywhere, saidar incapable of stopping them, or the food spoiling, an insane tyrant as their foe, reality starting to break down - the dead walking, corridors shifting, the ripples.

 

Err, these are all caused by the dark one with the exception of of infiltrating the WT.  This is hardly the forsaken coming up with 'great plans'.  They're just letting the DO fight the war for them.

 

Mat and Avi both died. But this is unimportant. It really shows your inability to look beyond the surface.

 

What the hell does this even mean?  Mat and Avi didn't die.  They were considered dead for a few pages before being brought back via Balefire.  Death is where someone you know, actually dies.  Like as in they don't come back.

 

What 'surface' am I not seeing past?  Either they died and we mourned their loss or they didn't.  They didn't.  They are still very much alive and active.  Once again a horribly weak argument on your end, Ares.

 

We see the heroes win, undoubtedly. But look closer. We see the Shadow continually advancing in the background. The Light's victories might be big, flashy and obvious, while the Shaodw's are insidious, omnipresent, and far, far bigger.

 

What does this have to do with people we care about in the series dying?  Oh yeah, it doesn't.  This is you trying to 'move the goalposts' because you can't produce a name of someone dead that the reader actually gave a crap about.

 

They didn't have it to begin with. The plan was for him to get it and them to take it. he had ot take it first.

 

Let me make it simple for you.  Who won that fight and who controls tear, the shadow or Rand?

 

He took Caemlyn. Since then, Andor has been in a civil war, with Elayne trying to secure her rule after the damage caused by Rand and Rahvin.

 

A civil war the shadow is not active in that ended in favor of the light.  What did this accomplish to slow Rand?  He still has all the troops he needs for the last battle, and Elayne ended up on the throne.

 

They did. Whehter or not they still do is in question.

 

Even though there is nothing to suggest that the shadow controls Arad Doman lets give this one to you.  Assuming they DO control it how does that help them against the coalition Rand has gathered?  Two Aiel and a mule could take Arad Doman.

 

Didn't have to. Asmo created a threat to Rand's legitimacy in passin, as a distraction, and that has taken 7 books to clear up. They might not be a major threat, but they have been a consistent minor threat. They held down Perrin. All this, just in passing.

 

Aha!  You finally have a decent point, one I have to concede.  Asmodean's plan for the Shaido was brillant.  I loved that and it was the best forsaken moment in the series!  It also happened back in book 4 >.<

 

They have succeeded in turning it against itself. An incompetent Amyrlin. A siege. An Amyrlin imprisoned. The Ajahs at one another's throats. And Elaida's decree, from Alviarin, and thus the Shadow, drives a wedge between Rand and the Tower (as well as that kidnapping thing), and between the nations and Rand. You have not shown any flaws in my examples.

 

Sure I have which is why this is the only example you tried this time.  I shot all the other ones down so you abandoned them, because you don't want to look bad again.

 

All of these are sort of true, except for the part where Egwene is about to unite the white tower and correct all of these issues.

 

I have. i read it so thoroughly, I even know the title of the series.

 

Really?  Are you seriously going to try to turn this debate into a grammar issue?  So I reversed a couple of words because I was typing too fast, sue me.  Remember that attacking credibility thing I brought up before?  Yeah you're doing that again.  If you aren't what relevance does this have to the discussion?  None.

 

Indeed. Rand nearly died in SL, and would have done if not for Moridin saving him.

 

But this is AFTER Rand's army destroyed Sammael's.  Rand could have kept the city, but chose to pursue Sam through a gateway.  This doesn't make Sam brilliant.  It makes Rand a moron.  Sam still lost the city in a few minutes, which would humiliate any general.

 

[quuote]He couldn't keep it unless he killed Sammael. And if he did that, the city falls anyway.

 

Why not?  Sam's soldiers were dead and Rand's were occupying the city.  Seems like he could have kept it just fine.

 

He lost because Mashadar killed him, after Moridin saved that boy who herds sheep. Rand won, as usual, via a fluke.

 

See above.  Rand being a moron doesn't make Sam brilliant.  More so because Sam was dumb enough to get killed by Mashadar. 

 

Yes, it was, unless you only count things as mysteries if someone goes "Hmm, that's mysterious."

 

Like I said before if the trollocs using the ways in such numbers is explained by the end of the series it was a mystery.  If its not then it was an oversight.

 

How about when Rand smashes that Trolloc army at the end of EotW? Face it, they were there to be a menace and get killed. Nothing's changed, other than them being a little less menacing and a little more dead, as you would expect given our heroes learning more.

 

If you remember my original argument, it was that the trollocs were never replaced by a greater threat.  Trollocs did NOT start off cannon fodder.  If they were the scene with Perrin rallying the two rivers wouldn't have been so suspenseful.

 

Irrelevant.

Man you love that word.  Just uttering it doesn't make it true.  If you believe something is irrelevant, and you expect anyone else to care or agree with you then you'd need to explain why you think it was irrelevant.

 

Morevoer saying that Lord of the Rings is irrevelant when I am choosing fantasy series to compare to the WoT is ludicrous.  My point still stands and you've still done nothing to refute it.

 

I'd like you to say something relevant. How are these comparable?

 

In nearly every fantasy series I've ever read people have to work to earn their power.  It isn't something they pick up instantly like people do weaves in the WoT.  You've said nothing to dispute that, you just gave me one word back.  Irrelevant.

 

How are the other series comparable?  They are long fantasy series that are well known by most of the people who frequent these boards.

 

You don't know that.

 

My god you can play dumb with the best of them.  Its true that we don't see anyone in the manor struggle to learn the new weaves.  However, what we do see is the trolloc army being destroyed by all the Asha'man using the new weaves.

 

If all we see is Asha'man using new weaves, and they all appear to have learned them instantly and with no effort, then how would it be relevant that the one Asha'man Fred had a little difficulty picking them up.

 

If we don't see it then it doesn't matter.  All we saw was complete and total success, so all your conjecture to the contrary is irrelevant.  See, I can use the word too.

[Arkelias]

Nihonjin ('go' denotes language, not sure if you know that :p) dewa arimasen. Watashi wa igirisujin desu.

 

...

 

which is around the point my knowledge of Japanese fails  But yeah, am learning Japanese at my university, and am going into my 2nd year of it.

 

I was asking if you spoke Japanese.  Or at least that's how I was taught to ask =p

 

I was married to a Japanese woman for a long time, and I took a few semesters but I'm far from an expert.  I can only read Hirigana and my vocabulary is pretty lacking.