The kill/do not kill order on Rand. Lets puzzle this out...

[Balefire to da face!]

I have seen a lot of discussion around here on the kill/do not kill order on Rand in both the early and latter books. It never seems that we truely get to the bottom of things.

 

Having started the Dragon Reborn on my reread I've noticed a few things, and would like it if anyone could fill in the blanks. And feel free to discuss the kill/do not kill order on Rand in the following books as well, it's become very interesting to me.

 

tEotW: So this seems to be all Ishy. Reading it now, I think most would agree that had Ishy wanted to kill the Dragon he could have. We do not really know if the DO has any part of these orders, since Ishy has been doing his own thing for a long time now anyway, right(and it seems as though Ishy is acting alone if he is actually claiming to be the DO)? Ishy might also be trying to convert Rand in hopes of pleasing the DO. If Ishy isn't getting direct orders from the DO at this point it would be understandable that he wouldn't want to off Rand and and then find out the DO wanted him alive, right?

 

TGH: I've noticed this is where things get a little foggy. The DO still seems to not be calling the shots at all, since Lanfear enters the picture and she seems dead set on doing anything but killing Rand. On the other hand, Ishy seems to be trying to kill Rand. He sends a gray man with Ingtar to possibly kill Rand(could have been going after Suian...). But in his confrontation with Rand at the house on the way to Falme he is wanting Rand to join him again when he could have, seemingly, easily killed Rand right there. And then at Falme he tries to convince Rand again....and then is ready to kill him. What is going on here? Is Ishy just completely bonkers at this point?

 

TDR: Here's where I just noticed some interesting things. I remember seeing other threads speculating that the Fade that confronts Carridin at the beginning of TDR is a Shadar Haran 1.0 because of his unusual behavior. And I wonder if that's true. If maybe the DO is finally calling the shots through him?

 

He asks Carridin/Bors....

 

You were commanded to find the human Rand al'Thor and kill him. That before all else. Above all else! Why are you not obeying?

 

And yet, that is not at all what Carridin/Bors was ordered to do. Two passages from the darkfriend meeting at the beginning of TGH. One to the crowd, and then the other specifically to Carridin....

 

"The Dragon Reborn! We are to kill him, Great Lord?" That from the Shienaran, hand grasping eagerly at his side, where his sword would hang.

"Perhaps", Ba'alzamon said simply, "And perhaps not. Perhaps he can be turned to my use. Sooner or later it will be so, in this Age or another.

 

And then to Carridin specifically, his main order seems to be for Carridin to continue what he is doing in Tarabon, this next, as you can see, almost sounds like an afterthought.....

 

"Secondly, you will watch for the three young men, and have your followers watch. Be warned; they are dangerous.

 

None of that even comes close to a kill order as far as I can tell, much less being Carridin's top priority. Indeed, just seconds after the Fade mentions this kill order, Carridin says....

 

"I don't understand. Why is it suddenly so important to kill him? I thought that the Great Lord of the Dark meant to use him.

 

Could it be the the DO was going around Ishy's order because he had gone mad, and he was doing it in Shadar Haran 1.0? The Fade really doesn't seem to know what was going on at the darkfriend meeting at the beginning of TGH.

 

Any input is appreciated, I've never really paid attention to this aspect of the story on my rereads before, so it's interesting to see all the different facades.....

[mb]

The earliest books of the main series, it seems Ishamael (and the Dark One) wanted Rand (and the other taveren) converted to the Shadow.  It seems both still want Rand converted.

 

Some interpret the 'Let the Lord of Chaos rule' order as 'Let Rand live'.  Yet to me 'Spread chaos' and/or 'Let chaos spread' would be more accurate.

 

[Owners.Inc]

Well, the do not kill Rand order can be explained in the books after ACOS as a part of Moridin trying to preserve himself.

 

Umm...in EOTW, I think we can all agree that Ishy wanted Rand converted. Ditto in TGH till Falme. It was at that point, that Ishy realized that he had allowed Rand to roam too freely and realize who he was. Rather than risk him becoming too powerful, he attacked Rand. Or maybe he was pissed that Rand called him names. Either one.

 

In TDR though, he seems to go all out (relatively) to kill Rand.

 

By TFOH and LOC though, it seems to have shifted into keep Rand alive so that the Light weakens itself by boxing each other up and killing each other. Dashiva could've killed Rand at any time in ACOS and LOC but it seems he was there as a spy more than an assassin.

[scott_swampy]

But then to trow in a curve ball Dashiva did try and kill Rand in aCoS. But why wait so long to do it when he could have balefired him at any time, why wait and why wait too do it in a way that you weren’t guaranteed success.

 

And I know that rand would have sense him channelling balefire and stopped him but surly if the DO wanted Rand killed he could have give Dashiva permission to use the true power to balefire rand so rand wouldn’t sense it. So the question still remain dose the DO want rand dead? Or did the order come from Morden? Or even Taim?

 

[algspkr]

I have seen a lot of discussion around here on the kill/do not kill order on Rand in both the early and latter books. It never seems that we truely get to the bottom of things.

 

Having started the Dragon Reborn on my reread I've noticed a few things, and would like it if anyone could fill in the blanks. And feel free to discuss the kill/do not kill order on Rand in the following books as well, it's become very interesting to me.

 

tEotW: So this seems to be all Ishy. Reading it now, I think most would agree that had Ishy wanted to kill the Dragon he could have. We do not really know if the DO has any part of these orders, since Ishy has been doing his own thing for a long time now anyway, right(and it seems as though Ishy is acting alone if he is actually claiming to be the DO)? Ishy might also be trying to convert Rand in hopes of pleasing the DO. If Ishy isn't getting direct orders from the DO at this point it would be understandable that he wouldn't want to off Rand and and then find out the DO wanted him alive, right?

 

TGH: I've noticed this is where things get a little foggy. The DO still seems to not be calling the shots at all, since Lanfear enters the picture and she seems dead set on doing anything but killing Rand. On the other hand, Ishy seems to be trying to kill Rand. He sends a gray man with Ingtar to possibly kill Rand(could have been going after Suian...). But in his confrontation with Rand at the house on the way to Falme he is wanting Rand to join him again when he could have, seemingly, easily killed Rand right there. And then at Falme he tries to convince Rand again....and then is ready to kill him. What is going on here? Is Ishy just completely bonkers at this point?

 

I agree with the previous posters; prior to Falme he was trying to convert Rand.  I would guess that the gray man came from someone other than Ishy.

 

TDR: Here's where I just noticed some interesting things. I remember seeing other threads speculating that the Fade that confronts Carridin at the beginning of TDR is a Shadar Haran 1.0 because of his unusual behavior. And I wonder if that's true. If maybe the DO is finally calling the shots through him?

 

RJ confirmed the beta version of Shadar Haran.

 

He asks Carridin/Bors....

 

You were commanded to find the human Rand al'Thor and kill him. That before all else. Above all else! Why are you not obeying?

 

And yet, that is not at all what Carridin/Bors was ordered to do. Two passages from the darkfriend meeting at the beginning of TGH. One to the crowd, and then the other specifically to Carridin....

 

"The Dragon Reborn! We are to kill him, Great Lord?" That from the Shienaran, hand grasping eagerly at his side, where his sword would hang.

"Perhaps", Ba'alzamon said simply, "And perhaps not. Perhaps he can be turned to my use. Sooner or later it will be so, in this Age or another.

 

And then to Carridin specifically, his main order seems to be for Carridin to continue what he is doing in Tarabon, this next, as you can see, almost sounds like an afterthought.....

 

"Secondly, you will watch for the three young men, and have your followers watch. Be warned; they are dangerous.

 

None of that even comes close to a kill order as far as I can tell, much less being Carridin's top priority. Indeed, just seconds after the Fade mentions this kill order, Carridin says....

 

"I don't understand. Why is it suddenly so important to kill him? I thought that the Great Lord of the Dark meant to use him.

 

Could it be the the DO was going around Ishy's order because he had gone mad, and he was doing it in Shadar Haran 1.0? The Fade really doesn't seem to know what was going on at the darkfriend meeting at the beginning of TGH.

 

It is possible that Carridin received new orders of which we are not aware, or your theory may be right.

 

But then to trow in a curve ball Dashiva did try and kill Rand in aCoS. But why wait so long to do it when he could have balefired him at any time, why wait and why wait too do it in a way that you weren’t guaranteed success.

 

And I know that rand would have sense him channelling balefire and stopped him but surly if the DO wanted Rand killed he could have give Dashiva permission to use the true power to balefire rand so rand wouldn’t sense it. So the question still remain dose the DO want rand dead? Or did the order come from Morden? Or even Taim?

 

I believe that RJ said that Dashiva only attempted to kill Rand because Rand saw him with the Asha'men who initiated the attack.

 

As for the brief kill order in WH; that was because the Shadow learned that Rand had plans and the means to cleanse sadin.

[scott_swampy]

So then did RJ say why they had attacked him? Or did we learn in the books and I have just forgotten?[

[Sharaman]

I think killing Rand in the later books was incidental to getting hold of the seals and the keys to the Choedan Kael (incidentally sounds quite obscene in several Indian languages). Didn't the order go something like "Kill him if you must but recover everything he possesses"?

[scott_swampy]

I think killing Rand in the later books was incidental to getting hold of the seals and the keys to the Choedan Kael (incidentally sounds quite obscene in several Indian languages). Didn't the order go something like "Kill him if you must but recover everything he possesses"?

 

Mabye a Personal joke on RJ's part?

[Arkelias]

The only possible logic I can fathom is that the DO doesn't care about getting free.  If he did Rand would have been long since dead.  That mean's he has other motives, and that for some reason turning Rand to the shadow is far more important than him breaking free.

 

The question is why?

[Sharaman]

 

Mabye a Personal joke on RJ's part?

Doubt it - it's plain obscene and usually used ruefully in the first person. A polite translation would be something like "Penetrated to such effect that the place, which was penetrated turned into a major canal/waterway". Although RJ was nicknamed Ganesha in Nam, I don't think he had that sort of colloquial knowledge of North Indian languages. Just one of those "sound coincidences" - like "Harami" which is "Pregnant woman" in Japanese and "Impious chap who doesn't know who his father is" (to put it politely) in Arabic.

[scott_swampy]

The only possible logic I can fathom is that the DO doesn't care about getting free.  If he did Rand would have been long since dead.  That mean's he has other motives, and that for some reason turning Rand to the shadow is far more important than him breaking free.

 

The question is why?

 

This could simply be put down to the fact that he, the DO, needs the last two(or is it three) seal to be broken, and these are in Rands possession. So the DO either need rand to tell him where they are, via conversion to the dark. Or needs rand kept alive until TG so that he can break the seals himself.

 

I think someone referred to rand breaking the last seals, something along the lines of “you have to clear the rubble before you can rebuild”

 

[Arkelias]

How does the DO even know that Rand has the seals?  And, assuming he does, wouldn't it make more sense to kill the Dragon and then search for the seals?  Even if it took centuries its not like the DO ages.  I see no reason for him to be in any particular hurry to get free.  Why not take the sure route and kill the Dragon?

[scott_swampy]

How does the DO even know that Rand has the seals?  And, assuming he does, wouldn't it make more sense to kill the Dragon and then search for the seals?  Even if it took centuries its not like the DO ages.  I see no reason for him to be in any particular hurry to get free.  Why not take the sure route and kill the Dragon?

 

Very good point, I suppose I just assumed he would know from one of his spies around rand, i.e. Dashiva, but it is entirely possible he has no clue who has them.

 

Bit of a curve ball but bare with me. In TSR chapter 9 Lanfear tells Rand using the Choedan Kal the two of them could challenge the Creator himself. Perhaps he wants too have The Dragon on side to try and over throw the Creator once and for all. Now I know that Ishy told rand that they had fought thousands of times before and that some times he turned to the dark so it wouldn’t be the first time but it would give weight to the creator dark one switch theory.

 

What I mean is that perhaps the times the dragon switches are the times that the DO Creator switch as well?

 

[Arkelias]

Aha!  Now that's a great idea I hadn't considered.  If the DO can't take the creator then maybe he needs the Dragon's aid to really win.  Great point Scott.

[mb]

But then to trow in a curve ball Dashiva did try and kill Rand in aCoS.

Actually, that was in Path of Daggers, not in Crown of Swords.

 

[Mashiara Sedai]

Perhaps the DO isn't as powerful as his minions make him out to be.  Maybe he doesn't have control over death, like some claim he does.  What if he is only able to influence (ie: bring back to life) the threads of the people who are sworn to him; he owns their soul so he can do what he pleases with it.  But the people who die in the Light, maybe he can't bring back.  So he (or others) say Rand will serve, dead or alive, it might not be true.  Maybe it's just boasting or wishful thinking.  Maybe Rand is safe if he dies, so the DO needs to convert him.

 

The Forsaken are known for finding ways of ignoring or getting around direct orders.  Many of the Forsaken have tried to kill Rand, but we can't be certain any of them were authorized by the DO.  I don't think the DO wants Rand dead at all.

 

~Mashiara

[scott_swampy]

But then to trow in a curve ball Dashiva did try and kill Rand in aCoS.

Actually, that was in Path of Daggers, not in Crown of Swords.

 

 

Sorry typo. Which is sad because i just finish a reread of PoD yesterday!

[sheikh chilli]

the kill/no kill confusion is just a copout or reason to explain the stupid moves made by the shadow and the one upping being done by rand.

 

the shadow are either

 

clueless, dumb, or indecisive. frankly seeing such confusion amongst the shadow is it any wonder they are getting their butts whooped

[Silmarien]

 

Very good point, I suppose I just assumed he would know from one of his spies around rand, i.e. Dashiva, but it is entirely possible he has no clue who has them.

 

Bit of a curve ball but bare with me. In TSR chapter 9 Lanfear tells Rand using the Choedan Kal the two of them could challenge the Creator himself. Perhaps he wants too have The Dragon on side to try and over throw the Creator once and for all. Now I know that Ishy told rand that they had fought thousands of times before and that some times he turned to the dark so it wouldn’t be the first time but it would give weight to the creator dark one switch theory.

 

What I mean is that perhaps the times the dragon switches are the times that the DO Creator switch as well?

 

 

I remember that was said by Sammael to Graendal (or the contrary) talking about Ishy, but we're not sure that's correct. Ishy was arrogant we know so maybe he told a lie.

And in TGH in the visions of the possible lives (when Rand use the Stone Portal)Rand says to Ishy clearly that maybe he bent but NEVER turned to the Dark.

So Ishy lied when said the Dragon turned at least once to the Dark.

 

Anyway, talking about kill/don't kill i think Ishy and the DO never wanted to kill Rand but turn him to the Shadow. And we can be sure for the orders in LOC "Let the lord of chaos rule" sounds as proof. And then we know Graendal was afraid after Sammael death because she was scared the DO would found she and Sammael were against his orders attacking Rand.

And if the DO wanted kill him he had had many chances to do it. Still, Moridin didn't kill him at the end of aCOS but helped him.

I think that Ishy at last tried to kill him just because otherwise he could be killed and he had to defend himself. And the other Forsakens who wants kill Rand, they did it going against the orders of the DO (in fact they're scared for this).

 

About what it said to Carridin by the Fade the only explanation i have it's just that the Fade didn't know the orders of Ishy or maybe Ishy was going mad and didn't understand anything more and he changed his mind, but i don't think so. Or maybe it's just a mistake by RJ. Don't know...

[scott_swampy]

Or maybe it's just a mistake by RJ. Don't know...

 

I doubt it is a mistake by RJ. The few time has done so he has told us about it, and said it will be rectified in later prints. So unless he has confirmed it in this case and I just missed it, it is unlikely.

 

About what it said to Carridin by the Fade the only explanation i have it's just that the Fade didn't know the orders of Ishy

 

I cant see a Fade making it up or acting against Ishy’s orders here, it would just be unlike them.

 

maybe Ishy was going mad and didn't understand anything more and he changed his mind

 

This is probably the best explanation for it. Plus we KNOW that Morin helping Rand in SL came from the dark one because he channelled the TP, so he must have had permission.

 

 

[Silmarien]

Or maybe it's just a mistake by RJ. Don't know...

I doubt it is a mistake by RJ. The few time has done so he has told us about it, and said it will be rectified in later prints. So unless he has confirmed it in this case and I just missed it, it is unlikely.

Even the best makes mistakes. But probably you're right. Maybe we should have known about it.

 

About what it said to Carridin by the Fade the only explanation i have it's just that the Fade didn't know the orders of Ishy

 

I cant see a Fade making it up or acting against Ishy’s orders here, it would just be unlike them.

I didn't say the Fade acted against Ishy, just he didn't know it.

 

maybe Ishy was going mad and didn't understand anything more and he changed his mind

 

This is probably the best explanation for it. Plus we KNOW that Morin helping Rand in SL came from the dark one because he channelled the TP, so he must have had permission.

I know we know, in fact i said it ;)

But the explanation about Ishy gone mad it seems too simple. It sounds as an expedient that Authors do when they don't know how to explain things and RJ was not of that kind.

 

 

 

 

[scott_swampy]

I didn't say the Fade acted against Ishy, just he didn't know it.

Ahh sorry i missed that, but still why would a fade take it upon itself to do this? It still seems starange to me taht one fade would just start acting on it own. Unless someone eles gave the order that is.

 

I know we know, in fact i said it

 

Yeah I was agreeing with you, but it didn’t come out right. Should have added "as you said...".My bad.

 

But the explanation about Ishy gone mad it seems too simple. It sounds as an expedient that Authors do when they don't know how to explain things and RJ was not of that kind.

 

Yeah RJ usually has these things in mind when he rights them. Unless it was just a story line he decided not to go with. Witch I think someone all ready said. Or was that a different thread?

 

 

I have read so many in the last three days. So….confused...can’t go on.

 

[Silmarien]

I didn't say the Fade acted against Ishy, just he didn't know it.

 

Ahh sorry i missed that, but still why would a fade take it upon itself to do this? It still seems starange to me taht one fade would just start acting on it own. Unless someone eles gave the order that is.

 

Don't worry  ;)

I don't know, maybe. But who? Do u have any idea? Me not  :'(

 

I know we know, in fact i said it

 

Yeah I was agreeing with you, but it didn’t come out right. Should have added "as you said...".My bad.

 

:D

 

But the explanation about Ishy gone mad it seems too simple. It sounds as an expedient that Authors do when they don't know how to explain things and RJ was not of that kind.

 

Yeah RJ usually has these things in mind when he rights them. Unless it was just a story line he decided not to go with. Witch I think someone all ready said. Or was that a different thread?

 

 

I have read so many in the last three days. So….confused...can’t go on.

 

 

 

I really don't know.

I understand, that's all complicate *sigh*

[Bob T Dwarf]

The Horn of Valere is the key to understanding the "Kill/Do Not Kill" sequence.

 

The Path of Daggers book tour 22 October 1998, Los Angeles - Pam Basham reporting

 

Q: "Is [the Dragon] soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"


RJ: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills.  "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.  In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this soul.  This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation.  (My interpretation.)

 

Q: Hawkwing says they follow the banner and the Dragon.  Moiraine says the Heroes will follow whoever winds the Horn.  Was Moiraine wrong?


RJ: Moiraine doesn't know everything.  She was speaking the truth as she knows it. However, she is correct in that whoever sounds the Horn "controls the Heroes."  


Q: "Then what happens if the Dragon and the banner are on opposite sides of the conflict from whoever sounds the Horn?"


RJ:  "Then we get a [rift] in the Pattern."  (I'm not certain if this is the exact word he used.  It may have been "schism" or "breach," but it was definitely a word expressing the concept of a forced opening/rupture.)

 

Ishy, due to having been active and very involved in worldly affairs a number of times during the interregnum knows about the Prophesy that caused the Horn and the Banner to be secreted in the Eye of the World. He is also very aware that the Dragon is the key to winning at TG.

 

So, until the Horn and Banner are found, he wants only to convert Rand.  If a converted Rand eventually finds the Horn, great.  The Dragon and the Heroes will fight for the Dark and TG will be a walkover. If a converted Rand doesn't and someone else does, great too, because that just means that whenever the Horn is sounded, it and the Dragon will be on opposite sides of the conflict and the Pattern will rupture, freeing the Dark Lord.  DO NOT KILL.

 

Then, once the Horn is found, Fain is ordered to steal it.  Once he does so, making Rand dead becomes vital, because the Dark will now be able to sound the Horn, and the Dragon will be summoned along with the other Heroes and fight for the Dark whether he wants to or not. KILL.  This would be Elan Morin Tedronai's favorite scenario.  He would have blown the Horn himself.  Forcing the Dragon to do his bidding would have been the sweetest revenge imaginable.

 

Then, once the Three Amigos finally recover the Horn for good and Mat sounds it at Falme, it becomes imperative to keep Rand alive and convert him in order to set-up the Pattern-rupture scenario again.  Back to DO NOT KILL.

 

This is all Ishy.  Meantime, as we see with Shaidar Haran very first appearance at the DF Social in TGH, the DO has his own agenda.  He hates the Dragon and only wants him dead as evidenced by how SH behaves.  Shaidar Haran's order to Carridin later is all the DO's doing.  We've seen throughout the series that SH doesn't take orders from any Forsaken.  We've also had no evidence that SH is capable of independent thought or action.  Therefore, whatever SH says or does comes directly from the DO.

 

At the end of TDR, Ishy gets a little frustrated and attempts to rip Rand's soul out of his body, planning to replace it with his own and lead the Light to destruction that way.  That doesn't work either and it's bye-bye Ishy, hello Moridin.  And, incidentally, much later when Moridin finally finds out that Carridin has been trying to have Rand killed, bye-bye Carridin.

 

So, the Forsaken and the DO are working at cross-purposes where Rand is concerned for most of the rest of the series.  As we see by KoD, Ishy has decided to take his chances with the Horn.  The order becomes KILL MAT and PERRIN without question ( thus putting the Horn and the Banner back into play ), and KILL RAND if you must.  At all costs recover all artifacts.

 

It's all about who has the Horn, and through it control of the Heroes.

 

[Silmarien]

 

Then, once the Horn is found, Fain is ordered to steal it.  Once he does so, making Rand dead becomes vital, because the Dark will now be able to sound the Horn, and the Dragon will be summoned along with the other Heroes and fight for the Dark whether he wants to or not. KILL.

 

If i remembet well Fain doesn't have to find the Horn, he said Rand "see ya in Falme" for some purpose i still don't understand but he takes possess of the Horn because there was the Knife of SL in the box.

 

 

 

This is all Ishy.  Meantime, as we see with Shaidar Haran 1.0's first appearance at the DF Social in TGH, the DO has his own agenda.  He hates the Dragon and only wants him dead as evidenced by how SH behaves.  Shaidar Haran's order to Carridin later is all the DO's doing.  We've seen throughout the series that SH doesn't take orders from any Forsaken.  We've also had no evidence that SH is capable of independent thought or action.  Therefore, whatever SH says or does comes directly from the DO.

 

It's not true that it is told to SH to kill Rand. In the prolougue of LOC the DO tells Demandred "Let the lord of chaos rule" and this means NOT KILL HIM.

 

At the end of TDR, Ishy gets a little frustrated and attempts to rip Rand's soul out of his body,

planning to replace it with his own and lead the Light to destruction that way.  That doesn't work either and it's bye-by Ishy, hello Moridin.

 

LOL  :D

 

So, the Forsaken and the DO are working at cross-purposes where Rand is concerned for most of the rest of the series.  As we see by KoD, Ishy has decided to take his chances with the Horn.  The order becomes KILL MAT and PERRIN without question, and KILL RAND if you must.  At all costs recover all artifacts.

 

It's all about who has the Horn, and through it control of the Heroes.

 

Mmm....

 

Summary:

 

1-Ishy tells Carridin DON'T kill Rand & Co.

2-A Fade/SH tells Carridin "why DIDN'T YOU KILL Rand? And went against the orders?"

3-DO tells LET THE LORD OF CHAOS RULE,so don't touch him!!!

 

What i can say is:

 

1-Ishy didn't want kill Rand 'cos he wants him at his side and the DO too

2-That Fade wasn't SH so he speaks for someone else that wants Rand dead.

This one can be Fain, since we know how he hates him and that he can commands Fades.

So, the DO projects for our Rand are still the same: have him at his side.

3-If the 2nd point is correct we can see again the coherence in the DO's plans, that is have Rand at his side.