Could there be any imaginary characters brought on by madness?

[Tirade]

I was just thinking today how awesome it would be if there was a character who was completely a figment of Rand's imagination - brought on by the madness of course.

 

I have read all the books several times, but I do not have all the details committed to memory they way some people here do.  Is there any character(s) who would qualify to be only in Rand's imagination?  A character who has never had a POV chapter and who ONLY appears in Rand's POVs?

 

Obviously, I am not meaning Lews Therin, I mean is there a flesh and blood character walking around who might be just a schizophrenic hallucination.

 

Just curious.

[Arkelias]

Not that I'm aware of.  I love the user name by the way!

[Vemynal]

that would be interesting but at the same time I think we would have noticed a logn time ago if there was a character to such an extent since other character's would have noticed the oddness

 

though i do think LTT in rand's head kinda counts toward this since as Semirhage mentioned LTT is actually LTT and not just rand being bonkers

[mb]

As far as I am aware, only saidin channelers caught before the main series have had completely made-up identities inside their head.

 

Lews Therin is Rand's only 'hallucination'.

 

[Muirenn]

I agree with the other posters and firmly believe that LTT is just a psychologial manifestation for Rand to deal with what he is/has been experiencing. 

[Vhar Khoebhan Xudan]

 

 

Lews Therin's voice in Rand's head is a result of his being the Dragon Reborn. LTT was the Dragon in the Age preceding Rand's, and thus there are two souls in one body - Rand and LTT. Otherwise the slow blending of the two's souls wouldn't give Rand several quirks (thumbing his earlobe and humming at pretty women) and talents he has now (drawing, saidin weaves - Blossoms and Arrows of Fire, the Mask of Mirrors, Gateways, Skimming, Using Callandor to kill all of the Shadowspawn in TSR in the Stone of Tear..) only LTT would know, or an Aes Sedai from the AoL, or a Forsaken..) , or the overlapping memories between him and LTT.

 

Lews Therin Telamon's a real voice in Rand's head.

[Blackhoof]

I agree, but i wouldn't tell anyone or speak to it out loud if i was him; could you imagine trying to convince everyone that their was a voice in your head, and it was actually the soul of a guy 3-thousand years dead, and it actually teaches you how to do things and converses with you regularly.... not happening.

[Muirenn]

Lews Therin's voice in Rand's head is a result of his being the Dragon Reborn. LTT was the Dragon in the Age preceding Rand's, and thus there are two souls in one body - Rand and LTT. Otherwise the slow blending of the two's souls wouldn't give Rand several quirks (thumbing his earlobe and humming at pretty women) and talents he has now (drawing, saidin weaves - Blossoms and Arrows of Fire, the Mask of Mirrors, Gateways, Skimming, Using Callandor to kill all of the Shadowspawn in TSR in the Stone of Tear..) only LTT would know, or an Aes Sedai from the AoL, or a Forsaken..) , or the overlapping memories between him and LTT.

 

No, Lews Therin and Rand are two parts of the *same* soul.  Rand is Lews Therin reborn, which means the *same* soul is reborn.  My theory is that the taint blurs the lines between past lives, allowing Rand (and the other men who channelled with the taint) to remember their past incarnations.  Rand remembers his previous life as Lews Therin.  His mind deals with this by creating another personality, a 'voice', to explain what he is dealing with.

[Thorn]

Or this twist: if there were

 

1) someone who was insane and believed strongly in an "imaginary friend" or other character who was a complete figment

2) that insane character was in tel'aran'rhiod

3) the figment would exist.

[Nimic]

Lews Therin's voice in Rand's head is a result of his being the Dragon Reborn. LTT was the Dragon in the Age preceding Rand's, and thus there are two souls in one body - Rand and LTT. Otherwise the slow blending of the two's souls wouldn't give Rand several quirks (thumbing his earlobe and humming at pretty women) and talents he has now (drawing, saidin weaves - Blossoms and Arrows of Fire, the Mask of Mirrors, Gateways, Skimming, Using Callandor to kill all of the Shadowspawn in TSR in the Stone of Tear..) only LTT would know, or an Aes Sedai from the AoL, or a Forsaken..) , or the overlapping memories between him and LTT.

 

No, Lews Therin and Rand are two parts of the *same* soul.  Rand is Lews Therin reborn, which means the *same* soul is reborn.  My theory is that the taint blurs the lines between past lives, allowing Rand (and the other men who channelled with the taint) to remember their past incarnations.  Rand remembers his previous life as Lews Therin.  His mind deals with this by creating another personality, a 'voice', to explain what he is dealing with.

 

This is what I think too. I wonder, though, if Rand "remembers" Lews Therin and not anyone else simply because of the circumstances, or if that was actually the last time "he" was born. When Hawkwing comes when the Horn is sounded, he says that they have fought with or against eachother countless times. I suppose it's not impossible that Rand/Lews Therin has been 'reborn' other times since the Breaking. Hell, maybe he was Guaire Amalasan :D

[Vhar Khoebhan Xudan]

 

 

But Guaire Amalasan also channeled using tainted saidin. Perhaps he's who Lews Therin often refers to as us?

 

'You, me,and the other one' LTT quote - Not exactly as stated, but still.

[Graendals favourite]

I have been thinking that maybe 'Lews Therin' could be real, the memories real, but that 'Lews Therin' is not really Lews Therin.

 

At one point or the other I have happened to ponder on life and sentience. Life-forms gain life and sentience at birth, though possibly at different times, and the sentience comes in different degrees. Animals are sentient to different degrees, and less than humans. When things die, they cannot be sentient anymore, any more than they can live, but that is because there is something wrong with the body, and it cannot be fixed since the body starts to decompose immediately after death. No one has restructured a body, set it to function, and waited if it gains sentience. I suppose this is the question whether a complex enough computer could gain sentience.

 

Anyway, in Rand's head there are memories for two people, his own and the seepage. It is not beyond reason that the memory seepage could gain sentience in Rand's head, since it is functioning and Rand himself is somewhat blocked from Lews Therin's memories. If part of a functioning brain is unused but usable, what is to stop sentience forming in the unused part in a similar way that it does in babies? One can postulate that the Wheel seeks to plant souls into available bodies, and perhaps it does not check whether the body is already in use, if the capacity to insert the soul exists. In this case, the soul would be real, a random soul (maybe even Gaidal Cain  :D), but one that has 'grown up' with Lews Therin's memories.

 

For this reason it is important to use all of one's brain, lest the other half comes alive.  ;) Anyway, this is a theory that occured to me.

[Blackhoof]

.... no offense, but i think that i will stick with the "LTT is really there and those are his memories and his voice" theory.

[Nimic]

 

 

But Guaire Amalasan also channeled using tainted saidin. Perhaps he's who Lews Therin often refers to as us?

 

'You, me,and the other one' LTT quote - Not exactly as stated, but still.

 

"The other one" is almost certainly Moridin. There was a popular theory earlier (or was it ever popular? I liked it, anyway) about "the other one" being a previous incarnation of Lews Therin and Rand, a third Dragon (or a first, really). Things have changed since then, and it's looking increasingly like certainty that it's actually Moridin.

[OptimusPrime]

 

 

But Guaire Amalasan also channeled using tainted saidin. Perhaps he's who Lews Therin often refers to as us?

 

'You, me,and the other one' LTT quote - Not exactly as stated, but still.

 

"The other one" is almost certainly Moridin. There was a popular theory earlier (or was it ever popular? I liked it, anyway) about "the other one" being a previous incarnation of Lews Therin and Rand, a third Dragon (or a first, really). Things have changed since then, and it's looking increasingly like certainty that it's actually Moridin.

 

After all, Lews Therin and Rand both know Moridin used the True Power, so its pretty obvious to both that Moridin isnt a builder.

[Blackhoof]

It would appear that it is moridin.

[nnokwoodeye]

Could there be any imaginary characters brought on by madness?

 

I am pretty sure bela is an imaginary character that was created by our madness

[OptimusPrime]

Tempted to respond with a Bela joke but it annoys people so I'll only do that it the necessary thread.

 

I cant see there being any imaginary characters myself.

[Vhar Khoebhan Xudan]

 

 

My Theory on Moridin being the other person LTT talks of:

 

 

Moridin - or Elan Morin Tedronai, as his past body was called, was equal to Lews Therin Telamon in the Power. He was also the first to propose the theory that the battle between the Dark One and the Creator had gone on forever, in a never-ending cycle - both using human surrogates. Elan Morin soon turned to the dark, and became Ishamael. He was the Dark Lord's champion, just as Lews Therin had been for the Light.

 

More than likely, if not for Lews Therin's existence, and the War of Power had still come into play, Elan Morin Tedronai would have become the being known as the Dragon.

 

Then again, that could just be all hoohah.

 

We know Moridin wants Rand alive at the Last Battle; he's never stopped trying to turn Rand to the Dark, just as he never stopped trying to turn LTT as Ishamael. He could have also possibly 'linked' with LTT in the past Age as he had with Rand in Shadar Logoth. This would explain how he was able to find LTT possibly, in TEotW Prologue, as well as finding Rand, LTT's reincarnation, at various points of the books.

 

Either Moridin turns him, kills him, or is killed.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

I agree with you that the 'other one' is Moridin, but i dont see him becoming the dragon at all. I think he is always the surrogate of evil, and will face whomever becomes the dragon, but i dont think he would have ever had that role himself. in a pov from graendal we hear her musing about how Demandred could have been the dragon, and that i can see. Born a day after lews therin, he would have been the most acclaimed man of the age without ltt, great general for the light before his envy turned him to the shadow, she actually says if things had been but a little different, he might have been the dragon himself. i will look up a quote and edit this to include it.

 

So not to nitpick, but i just see Elan Morin Tedronai as evil through and through, and always making that choice every time the wheel turns. the dragon is the lights champion, and Moridin is anything but that.

 

i also think that the reason the dark one wants to turn rand so badly (remember he has offered him the highest place, over ALL the forsaken), is because he is like the fisher in that game of stones Moridin is playing with himself (in LOC i beleive?). he is the most important player in the battle between good and evil, and for either side to have a chance at complete victory, they need him on their side. Now, Moridin is definitely the dark one's "champion" if you will, but even that role is nowhere near as important as being the dragon.

 

to discuss the topic of the thread, i think it would be interesting to have a character rand has had contact with regularly turn out to be an "i see dead people" type thing (sorry forget the name of the movie, u know the one with bruce willis and the little kid?). i dont see it happening, but it would add to the plot, to have min or cadsuane or nyn one day be like "uhh rand? who the hell is xyz?" and have him be like "u know xyz! hes the one who did this and that..." and them just kind of look at each other in horror.

[Nimic]

I don't think Ishamael is correct at all about the idea that he has always fought Rand. In fact, I think it's possible that Ishamael is a Hero of the Horn. The pattern is neutral, not good or evil. Hawkwing said that he and Rand had fought with eachother countless times, and against eachother countless times, so they aren't always spun out for some great good purpose. For that reason I also think it's not possible for the Dark One to break the Wheel of Time and the Pattern. "He" is just part of the game, like all the other players.

 

I don't think a soul is necessarily good or bad. The only case we've got on hand (Lews Therin > Rand) is too special for it to really mean anything about how it all works.

[Sirayn]

I was just thinking today how awesome it would be if there was a character who was completely a figment of Rand's imagination - brought on by the madness of course.

 

I have read all the books several times, but I do not have all the details committed to memory they way some people here do.  Is there any character(s) who would qualify to be only in Rand's imagination?  A character who has never had a POV chapter and who ONLY appears in Rand's POVs?

 

Obviously, I am not meaning Lews Therin, I mean is there a flesh and blood character walking around who might be just a schizophrenic hallucination.

 

This idea is so unlikely and yet so awesome. I'm imagining a Fight Club-esque reveal that some (or all) of the cast are figments of Rand's crazy imagination. Now I really want to read this.

[Mr Ares]

My Theory on Moridin being the other person LTT talks of:

We know he is. Rand recognises him.

He was the Dark Lord's champion, just as Lews Therin had been for the Light.

In that Age. The Dragon soul is bound to the Wheel, as a Hero, Ishy isn't, no more so than any other soul.

 

(sorry forget the name of the movie, u know the one with bruce willis and the little kid?)

The Sixth Sense.

[Nimic]

In that Age. The Dragon soul is bound to the Wheel, as a Hero, Ishy isn't, no more so than any other soul.

 

How do you know that? I don't think it's unlikely at all that Ishamael is bound to the wheel. It's not like they're "good". The Heroes of the Horn would fight for anyone.

[OptimusPrime]

In that Age. The Dragon soul is bound to the Wheel, as a Hero, Ishy isn't, no more so than any other soul.

 

How do you know that? I don't think it's unlikely at all that Ishamael is bound to the wheel. It's not like they're "good". The Heroes of the Horn would fight for anyone.

 

I just had this crazy image of the Nae'blis being bound to the Dark One like the Dragon is bound to the Wheel, the Dark One repeatedly bringing Ishamael back from the grave to be the Shadows champion. Not likely at all, but I think it would be a great twist if it turned out Ishamael hadnt been lying after all.

 

Ever wonder why Lanfear was named Last Chance? Is that a hint that some of the Chosen could indeed have been reincarnated more than once?