If you were one of the Forsaken...

[Arkelias]

Let's assume you are one of the Forsaken (pick one).  EotW has just happened and you are now free to wreak havoc in the name of the Great Lord once more.  What would you have done differently than the Forsaken in the books?

 

In general I think the forsaken made a far too many mistakes, and did precious little that aided the DO in any meanigful way.  If anything they seem borderline incompetent, prone to mad rages (some of them), arrogant and lack even the most basic of tactical sense.  The only one two I really liked were Lanfear and Asmodean, because both had clear plans that made sense to me.

 

Personally, if I was any of the male Forsaken I'd have immediately set about finding as many Darkfriends as possible who were capable of learning to channel.  Since they are protected from the taint I'd start forging them into a new army of dreadlords to use in Tarmon Gaidon.

 

I'd have built an army of trollocs to support them and have done it all in secret while I got ready to launch the opening salvo or Tarmon Gaidon.  I wouldn't have made myself public, and I wouldn't have launched some of the pointless assaults we witnessed. 

 

For example, in KoD when they send tens of thousands of trollocs after Rand why didn't they include anyone who could channel?  If they had a half dozen dreadlords Rand and Logain would have lost the fight.  The failed assault killed nearly as many trollocs as there are Aiel loyal to Rand.  That seems like a pointless waste to me, especially since there still isn't a kill order on Rand.

 

Anyway, what would you have done differently if you were one of the Forsaken?  What might you do if the timeline was set back to EotW?

[Mr. Micawber]

Let's assume you are one of the Forsaken (pick one).  EotW has just happened and you are now free to wreak havoc in the name of the Great Lord once more.  What would you have done differently than the Forsaken in the books?

 

In general I think the forsaken made a far too many mistakes, and did precious little that aided the DO in any meanigful way.  If anything they seem borderline incompetent, prone to mad rages (some of them), arrogant and lack even the most basic of tactical sense.  The only one two I really liked were Lanfear and Asmodean, because both had clear plans that made sense to me.

 

Personally, if I was any of the male Forsaken I'd have immediately set about finding as many Darkfriends as possible who were capable of learning to channel.  Since they are protected from the taint I'd start forging them into a new army of dreadlords to use in Tarmon Gaidon.

 

I'd have built an army of trollocs to support them and have done it all in secret while I got ready to launch the opening salvo or Tarmon Gaidon.  I wouldn't have made myself public, and I wouldn't have launched some of the pointless assaults we witnessed. 

 

For example, in KoD when they send tens of thousands of trollocs after Rand why didn't they include anyone who could channel?  If they had a half dozen dreadlords Rand and Logain would have lost the fight.  The failed assault killed nearly as many trollocs as there are Aiel loyal to Rand.  That seems like a pointless waste to me, especially since there still isn't a kill order on Rand.

 

Anyway, what would you have done differently if you were one of the Forsaken?  What might you do if the timeline was set back to EotW?

 

Step A. Go to White Tower, pick up thirteen black sisters, strength irrelevant.

 

Step B. Go to Seanchan, use 13² trick to convert 13 Sul'dam in some flyspeck part of the Empire to the Dark Side of the Force, since channelers - which the Sul'dam are, but don't know about it - can be converted using said trick.

 

Step C. Find Rand, use Supercircle to smother him and sever him.

 

Step D. Balefire.

 

Step E. Put 13 Sul'dam under compulsion, give them 13 collars, have them collar Black sisters while sleeping.

 

Step F. Hide 13 Sul'dam in vacuole.

 

Step G. Periodically use 13 Sul'dam to defeat the Chosen individually.

 

Step H. Order compulsed Sul'dam to fight each other to death

 

Step I. Kill remaining exhausted Sul'dam.

 

Step J. Laugh maniacally

 

Step K. Discover an instant later that the Dark One's plans for the world probably do not involve the continuation of human existence.

 

Step L. Go Light.

[mb]

It seems that the Forsaken have acted as well as they could in their situations.

 

Demandred & Mesaana might currently be searching for (and/or influencing) Dreadlords.

 

There was more channelers than just Rand & Logain at the trolloc attack.

Sending Dreadlords to that attack might have risked a number of things::

-The Dreadlords could have been discovered.

-The Dreadlords could also been killed in addition to the trollocs.

We do not know how many dreadlords the Forsaken found nor how many they could have sent.

The Trolloc attack accomplished at least one thing:  Rand no longer goes to that manor.  (Gathering Storm Chapter 1)

 

[Arkelias]

Most of what they do in the latter half of the series makes more sense, but when you think about their level of power and some of the advantages they have over their modern counterparts (the weaves the current Aes Sedai don't know like complusion) it seems there is more that they could do.

 

You could kidnap virtually any general, king or queen and compel them to do what you need done.  Nor did it need to be as blatant as what Ravhin did with Morgase.  You could control them without anyone the wiser if you didn't have them made odd decisions or act out of character except where you wanted them to.

 

Channelers could be kidnapped and forcibly converted to the shadow using a circle of 13 fades.  I'd build up a massive power base of Aes Sedai and Dreadlords, and send them at my enemies as needed without ever needing to fight the battle myself.

[Tyrell]

Open Gateway.

 

Kill Ruler of a nation.

 

Repeat.

 

Semirhage showed how ridiculously powerful the chosen could have been at causing widespread destruction and chaos if they'd actually tried when she single-handedly caused the entire continent of Seanchan to be taken out of the game with her assassination spree. 

[Mr. Micawber]

Open Gateway.

 

Kill Ruler of a nation.

 

Repeat.

 

Semirhage showed how ridiculously powerful the chosen could have been at causing widespread destruction and chaos if they'd actually tried when she single-handedly caused the entire continent of Seanchan to be taken out of the game with her assassination spree. 

 

Yeah, I think, for all their talk of primitives, they completely underestimate their own power in a general sense, because in the world they came from (remember, their minds went from the Strike at Shayol Ghul to 998 NE in an instant) they were definitely powerful, but the Light had powerful people too.

[Al Thor93]

I agree with everyone else. The things they do seem to make sense considering the situation they are in.

However, if I were Sammael, I would have stayed in Illian instead of leaving to meet the army. Also I would have used compulsion on the Black Tower or at least one of the weaker members in order to get more men channeling.

[mb]

Channelers could be kidnapped and forcibly converted to the shadow using a circle of 13 fades.  I'd build up a massive power base of Aes Sedai and Dreadlords, and send them at my enemies as needed without ever needing to fight the battle myself.

There have been enough Dreadlords, yet we rarely see 13 Myrddraal together.  And even if 13 Myrddraal can be gathered, the Dreadlords/Forsaken will need to arrange for the intended victim to become alone for long enough time; which would be difficult to do.

 

[Arkelias]

Step 1- Gather 13 Myrddraal.  Hundreds attacked Rand recently so they must be able to find 13.

 

Step 2- Find the channeler you want.  Use compulsion on them.  This is doubly easy if you are a man and they are a woman as they won't feel you channeling until you've already compelled them.

 

Step 3- Open gateway and take compelled channeller to your circle of myrddraal.  Perform the ritual to bind them to the shadow.

 

Step 4- Open gateway and reinsert converted channeller back into the White Tower (or wherever you took them from).

 

Step 5- Repeat steps 1-4 on the next target.  Rinse and repeat as often as you can.

[Red Hand Man]

Something that many don't seem to be taking into account here is the completely different intelligence levels of the two Ages.  These guys were used to warfare... a very very different warfare.  Technology is very very different.

 

Look at it this way:  If you have a PhD in something, what is the likelihood that you would be able to live well in the mid-1800s in the United States or Europe?  There are many things you don't take into account.  All of the technologies they used were well established and likely had base infrastructure that isn't available.  A specific example - a computer scientist that can program a virus that can completely shut down an enemy system wouldn't be able to to do something like that if they were plopped down in the 1800s, but they are still smart and will still figure something out... eventually.

 

This seems to be what is going on with the Forsaken.  People look to Coumadrin's book as a red herring (if Roedran is Demandred), whereas it could be two things:  a way to keep track of Mat (someone else's thought, don't remember who) and that Demandred found the best book on the type of battles he would need to fight in this age.

 

It takes some time to adjust to vastly different surroundings and I think they have done pretty well for only numbering 13.

[Olorin]

I think my first instinct, as a forsaken, after being imprisoned for so long would be to find and kill Lews Therin. I wouldn't go in blind, but I would go in quick. Once I found out a little about him, it would be a matter of luring him away from Moiraine and overwhelming him. Gateway his ass to the phantom zone or something. Maybe seal Lews Therin in the bore.

[Vhar Khoebhan Xudan]

 

 

As Asmodean, my personally favorite Forsaken....

 

I wouldn't go into that closet. Never, for the life of me..

 

Even if it had all the musical instruments from my past Age...or even if Semirhage tortured me 4 out of the 7 days in the week..

[Mr. Micawber]

Look at it this way:  If you have a PhD in something, what is the likelihood that you would be able to live well in the mid-1800s in the United States or Europe?  There are many things you don't take into account.  All of the technologies they used were well established and likely had base infrastructure that isn't available.  A specific example - a computer scientist that can program a virus that can completely shut down an enemy system wouldn't be able to to do something like that if they were plopped down in the 1800s, but they are still smart and will still figure something out... eventually.

 

That's pretty much what I was trying to say.

 

I love that little throwaway line from Graendal in FOH or LOC about how Sammael is gnashing his teeth because he can't arm his soldiers with shocklances.

 

If anything, and perhaps one can attribute this to their arrogance, the Chosen should have spent a while lying low and just observing. Hell, as the two spectacular generals left from the First War, Demandred and Sammael ought to have been obsessed with intelligence and scouting. And Semirhage should have been torturing a lot of people to extract as much information as possible. And Graendal with Compulsion, and so on.

 

However, it's abundantly clear that they are still, in some way, human and prone to human errors.

 

Actually, barring the luridness of Graendal's orgies, I think that I would be doing exactly what she did, take up position somewhere and use my powers to kidnap people and interrogate them. Not for too long, of course, but for long enough to have an accurate gauge of my enemies' strength.

 

For example, rather than fairly pathetic Trolloc/Myrrdraal/Draghkar/Soulless attacks, Demandred or Sammael should have sent a damane or a Black sister to see how Rand reacts. Especially since he wouldn't be able to bring himself to kill them.

[nnokwoodeye]

If I was in their position I would have used the portal stones to find a more advance world so that I could provide my troops with "real" weapons.

[Durinax]

uhm you wouldnt be able too find a world with advanced weapons, they are all reflections of the real world, some being more concrete and others not so. it is the possibilities of variable outcomes, to travel that far away from the truth, theres a good chance you would not come back at all. . .

 

If I was forsaken, I would be using a lot of proxies, I would have tried to infiltrate the Aiel, and Shienar, and possibly other lands. I would go Aiel first because they are really awesome, Shienar next because that would be easier, and stripping a borderland of its defences is tactically advantagous. I would also try to send agents to infiltrate the Legion and BT so I could manipulate them, same as the band

[Red Hand Man]

If I was forsaken, I would be using a lot of proxies, I would have tried to infiltrate the Aiel, and Shienar, and possibly other lands. I would go Aiel first because they are really awesome, Shienar next because that would be easier, and stripping a borderland of its defences is tactically advantagous. I would also try to send agents to infiltrate the Legion and BT so I could manipulate them, same as the band

 

Well, to do those things they have to know something of this world, which they didn't.  Now that they do, it is much harder for them to infiltrate the Aiel (Rand got an insta-army from them) and it is speculated that Demandred is pulling the strings on the Borderlands armies.

 

At the moment the most successful non-Moridin Forsaken is using a proxy, Graendal.

 

Also, even with all of their blunders and meddling in scheming and plotting, they are doing pretty damned good.  Rand is totally messed up, there is no coherent defense and all of the powerful factions distrust each other (though Tylee/Perrin and Mat/Tuon are getting there, too bad Rand isn't).

[Arkelias]

Red Hand Man said:

Look at it this way:  If you have a PhD in something, what is the likelihood that you would be able to live well in the mid-1800s in the United States or Europe?  There are many things you don't take into account.  All of the technologies they used were well established and likely had base infrastructure that isn't available.  A specific example - a computer scientist that can program a virus that can completely shut down an enemy system wouldn't be able to to do something like that if they were plopped down in the 1800s, but they are still smart and will still figure something out... eventually.

 

This is a really good point.  However, I see some advantages a Forsaken has that a PhD does not.  If you had a PhD you wouldn't have the technology to take advantage of your knowledge.  If you use the one power you still know how to use every weave you knew before.  Things like travelling, making Ter'Angreal and Compulsion are still available.

 

As these are secrets lost to the world you could use them to great effect to increase your personal power.  I think you'd have a lot of problems ajusting, especially in the beginning because the world is so different than what you remember.

 

But the Forsaken were the best and brightest the shadow had to offer.  I'd expect them to adjust more quickly than anyone could ever expect simply because of who they were during the AoL. 

[Durinax]

I wonder if the DO actually sent them to various places after they where released. . . so they could start learning bout the new world and preparing for the LB easier. . .

[Arkelias]

That would make a lot of sense Durinax.  I wish we knew more about his motivation and methods.  Seems like a fascinating angle RJ never got around to showing us, though hopefully Sanderson will in the last few books!

[wavemistresstrammell]

I wonder if the DO actually sent them to various places after they where released. . . so they could start learning bout the new world and preparing for the LB easier. . .

That would make a lot of sense Durinax.  I wish we knew more about his motivation and methods.  Seems like a fascinating angle RJ never got around to showing us, though hopefully Sanderson will in the last few books!

Hope you guys don't mind I did that (hopefully you know what I mean haha, I find it hard to explain things sometimes.)

 

Anywho, Durinax, never thought of that before and I agree Arkelias, it wouldhave been nice to see what was going on about that whole thing. Personally I think Sanderson is a really good author so I have my fingers crossed that somehow he'll answer this question in the series ^.^

[mb]

Step 1- Gather 13 Myrddraal.  Hundreds attacked Rand recently so they must be able to find 13.

 

Step 2- Find the channeler you want.  Use compulsion on them.  This is doubly easy if you are a man and they are a woman as they won't feel you channeling until you've already compelled them.

 

Step 3- Open gateway and take compelled channeller to your circle of myrddraal.  Perform the ritual to bind them to the shadow.

 

Step 4- Open gateway and reinsert converted channeller back into the White Tower (or wherever you took them from).

 

Step 5- Repeat steps 1-4 on the next target.  Rinse and repeat as often as you can.

Others around the channeler will need to be dealt with before taking the channeler to the circle of myrddraal.  If the intended victim is one of the main characters, they nearly always have others around them.

And passerby would also need to be dealt with for the task to become successful.  Those might get aid to get rid of the myrddraal and/or the darkfriend channelers.  The same would also apply to those that might be chasing any of the participants.

 

[Red Hand Man]

Red Hand Man said:

Look at it this way:  If you have a PhD in something, what is the likelihood that you would be able to live well in the mid-1800s in the United States or Europe?  There are many things you don't take into account.  All of the technologies they used were well established and likely had base infrastructure that isn't available.  A specific example - a computer scientist that can program a virus that can completely shut down an enemy system wouldn't be able to to do something like that if they were plopped down in the 1800s, but they are still smart and will still figure something out... eventually.

 

This is a really good point.  However, I see some advantages a Forsaken has that a PhD does not.  If you had a PhD you wouldn't have the technology to take advantage of your knowledge.  If you use the one power you still know how to use every weave you knew before.  Things like travelling, making Ter'Angreal and Compulsion are still available.

 

As these are secrets lost to the world you could use them to great effect to increase your personal power.  I think you'd have a lot of problems ajusting, especially in the beginning because the world is so different than what you remember.

 

But the Forsaken were the best and brightest the shadow had to offer.  I'd expect them to adjust more quickly than anyone could ever expect simply because of who they were during the AoL. 

 

Being the best and the brightest in your field doesn't mean that you would be able to adjust easily to being the best and brightest in your field 100 years ago, let alone 1000 years ago, because frankly... Graendal and Aginor's fields simply do not exist in this Age.

 

Other things we should note, the people that knew how to make the ter'angreal, etc... likely are a very specialized group (think of them as Mechanical Engineers).  Would a general, let alone a doctor, likely know how to make these advanced tools that they all wish for?

 

There are many basic things that they would be immensely better at, for instance their knowledge of mathematics and general science is probably vastly ahead of this Age.

 

So they would have all of the mental faculties to accomplish their goals, but their very first step would be to adjust to the age and gather intelligence.  Also, how could they have anticipated that science and culture could have regressed as far as it had?

 

Just trying to play Devil's Advocate here :)

 

P.S. - I like the gate in/gate out murder, rinse, repeat method... seems like that would work pretty darned well

 

Edit:  Grammar and spelling corrections made.

[nnokwoodeye]

uhm you wouldnt be able too find a world with advanced weapons, they are all reflections of the real world, some being more concrete and others not so. it is the possibilities of variable outcomes, to travel that far away from the truth, theres a good chance you would not come back at all. . .

 

It doesn't have to be a really advance world. Just a world that has at least a hundred years of experience with gunpowder weapons... (Still be more similar to the real world than the "trollocs beats Hawkwing" world)

[Durinax]

uhm you wouldnt be able too find a world with advanced weapons, they are all reflections of the real world, some being more concrete and others not so. it is the possibilities of variable outcomes, to travel that far away from the truth, theres a good chance you would not come back at all. . .

 

 

It doesn't have to be a really advance world. Just a world that has at least a hundred years of experience with gunpowder weapons... (Still be more similar to the real world than the "trollocs beats Hawkwing" world)

 

not really, gunpowder is quite advanced in technology. personnally I think the closest thing a forsaken could have done, right after being unsealed, in an effort to gain that type of tech would be to infiltrate the illuminators.. but filtering through the thousands of worlds that could be wouldnt be too hard. the discussion about this thing in the books blew my mind BTW it made me think how different something could have been if I turned left instead of right, and followed the chain as long as I could

[Mr.Big]

Most of the actions mentioned in this thread have merit, would work and are plausible.That being said,if the Forsaken actually did these things the forces of light wouldn't stand a chance at the Last Battle and that would pretty much suck. :'(