Towers of Midnight Speculation Thread (Spoilers for tGS)

[FarShainMael]

On another thread, Impressive Bosom has suggested that Alivia is Ilyena reborn. Now why didn't I think of that.....

 

[Sharaman]

Possible - you mean Ilyena-Alivia will help Rand-LTT find peace and acceptance.

One thing though, we have no indication that Ilyena was an especially strong channeler and given that Channeling strength seems to be at least partially dependent on the soul, ...

 

[FarShainMael]

Well, ATM I am still mulling over the implications, not heading in any particular direction. I had been wondering if Ilyena might make an appearance; I was pretty sure she wasn't Elayne. The possibility that she might be Alivia hadn't occurred to me. I'm now wondering if Rand knew her, or if he will now, post VoG.

 

Do we have any info at all on Ilyena's channelling strength?

 

[Sharaman]

No we don't have any info about Ilyena's strength and that in itself, is information, in this context.

If she had been Forsaken-level strength, it might have been noted since she would have been an important player on the side of the Light.

However, all this is tenuous, as is the supposition that Alivia=Ilyena.

 

[Declan]

Man it has been a long time since i have posted something. but here it goes:

 

I am going to have to lean towards Alivia not being Ilyena because whenever Lanfear spoke of her she spoke with venom in her voice and obviously did not fear or respect her. that could be in part because of just plain jealousy but i think it is also in part because her not having any significant strength and thinks she doesn't "deserve" to be with Lews Therin.

 

I really think finding out who Ilyena is will be impossible, and if she has been reborn im sure BS won't tell us in any of the books.

[Declan]

keep note that Alivia is very very strong in the OP. but im sure you knew that.

[kabkaba]

Ilyena=Alivia no way!

For 1, we have never had any indication that Ilyna channeled. She might as well have been a non-channeller.

For 2, we definitely know that she is dead since LTT sees her dead body in the very first of the first book.

[Sharaman]

1) Ilyena was As Sedai. That's not an issue. RJ confirmed it several times and the BWB life-story makes it clear anyhow. They'd been married over 60 years and had young children. 

2) LTT killed himself on the same day that he killed Ilyena. If LTT has been reborn, why not Ilyena?

 

 

[farthammer]

I know I've read it places that LTT had children, but I can't remember any time the LTT voice ever thought of them.  He may have but it must've been rare.  So I'm wondering if there are any sources of info about them anywhere besides the opening scene in EotW?

[FarShainMael]

LTT killed all his blood kin and loved ones. But you're right, the LTT-voice never mentions them AFAIK.

 

@declan: yes, I gather that Alivia is rated almost as strong as Lanfear.. and on the same level as Cyndane.

 

I've done my thinking about Ilyena at

 

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,55814.new.html

 

[Impressive Bosom]

Man it has been a long time since i have posted something. but here it goes:

 

I am going to have to lean towards Alivia not being Ilyena because whenever Lanfear spoke of her she spoke with venom in her voice and obviously did not fear or respect her. that could be in part because of just plain jealousy but i think it is also in part because her not having any significant strength and thinks she doesn't "deserve" to be with Lews Therin.

 

I really think finding out who Ilyena is will be impossible, and if she has been reborn im sure BS won't tell us in any of the books.

 

I'm so glad I found this discussion as its something that has been tickling my brain for years now. There's a great deal of circumstantial evidence to suggest - but only suggest - the connection. And nothing says that Alivia would know that she was Ilyena of course. Their appearances have been described as being almost identical or at the very least very similar, which again is proof of nothing since a person wouldn't necessarily be reborn looking as they had in a previous life (Birgitte's golden braid notwithstanding). The similarities in appearance could be a subtle clue - or an even subtler red herring.

 

I had always thought that Alivia 'helping Rand die' would mean she would play some role in excising Lews Therin, helping him depart peacefully into the World of Dreams - perhaps with her - and leaving Rand as just Rand again. That way both Men finally know peace.

 

As an aside - during the AoL I am given to believe that strength in the OP wasn't a very big deal at all. That accomplishment and service was the only

measure of worth and people with little or no channelling ability could rise very

high in public opinion and acclaim while powerful channellers weren't guaranteed anything of the sort. Mieren's derision of Ilyena would more likely be due to her lack of accomplishment (as Mieren was herself a great scientist) than her strength with the OP. Think of it like a captain of industry not considering the fact that another man could run almost as fast as him be something necessarily worthy of respect. And of course, it was in her nature to simply discount a rival's worth whether that opinion was valid or not.

 

Anyway, Alivia seems as if she will have WAY too important a role in the story to

have been given as little character development as she has, which makes me wonder if she's being deliberately played down for the big reveal later. Hell, I'd even say she could be the big unnoticed thing except that I'm not 100% sure of her timeline off the top of my head.

 

In a completely unrelated thought regarding important historical figures being reborn, what of Latra Posae Decume being reborn as Cadsuane, or perhaps Egwene?

[Sharaman]

Ilyena definitely had some major accomplishments and recognition for them.

She had three names and the third name was only handed out to people who had done something fairly major. Meirin didn't have a third name.

So that's the reverse of the situation you are postulating.

 

 

 

[Impressive Bosom]

Ilyena definitely had some major accomplishments and recognition for them.

She had three names and the third name was only handed out to people who had done something fairly major. Meirin didn't have a third name.

So that's the reverse of the situation you are postulating.

 

A fair point. I suppose the gist of what I'm trying to say is that there are many reasons why Mierin would be dismissive of Ilyena that have nothing to do with the power and don't even necessarily reflect reality (i.e. their respective beauty). Hell, it could just be that she got there first.

[DemandredFO]

If Latra were reborn as anyone I would say Egwene on the basis of Egwene seems to be heading in the Fateful Concord direction but obviously that wouldn't work this time because rand has female channelers.  Like I said though that is just a mostly uneducated guess.

[farthammer]

She has yet to really propose or do anything in regards to Rand specifically, they both have two common enemies at least in the Seanchan and the Shadow and he's finally pulled his head out of his ass.  Don't see any hint of a Fateful Concord repeat yet.

[Declan]

i really try and stay away from thinking that alot of the characters could or have been reborn in this age because remember its not like everyone's "soul" or something is like the Dragon's. not everyone else gets spun back out regularly. That's why i like to think Egwene is just Egwene, but that's me.

 

@FarShainMael:And as far as Lanfear being jealous of Ilyena; i am not sure exactly where you get the strength of her i am pretty sure Robert Jordan or Maria or BS has ever released how strong she was in the one power. I may be mistaken. i have not researched it very thoroughly, this is just conjecture. Mierin was obviously already an unstable individual looking for power before she turned to the DO, and since she was obsessed with power i believe she thought only herself worthy of LT since she is well regarded as the strongest female channeler that ever lived.

 

But i do agree that there is a serious lack of Alivia's development since all we get from Rand's POV when he looks at her is that Min gets angry "because she must help him die" or so on and so forth.Have we even got her POV yet? i believe it is time...

[Impressive Bosom]

But i do agree that there is a serious lack of Alivia's development since all we get from Rand's POV when he looks at her is that Min gets angry "because she must help him die" or so on and so forth.Have we even got her POV yet? i believe it is time...

Now don't get me wrong - I know the narrative has gotten so big and that there are so many characters involved it would be almost impossible to do in-depth development on them all. But Alivia seems like she's going to play a pretty huge role in this story and there has to be a reason for it - after all, why couldn't Nynaeve or Moiraine or Cadsuane or any number of other strong female characters be playing whatever role she is going to. Why introduce an entirely different character with a long, convoluted and mysterious background and then leave he rin the shadows? That more than anything is what drives me to suspect that there is more going on with Alivia - otherwise the character simply becomes an inconsistent distraction.

[DemandredFO]

If she really was a demane for 400 yrs captured when she was really young it's doubtful she's advanced to a significant point in being free yet.  There are always sectrets so it's possible something is being hidden.

[mb]

i really try and stay away from thinking that alot of the characters could or have been reborn in this age because remember its not like everyone's "soul" or something is like the Dragon's. not everyone else gets spun back out regularly. That's why i like to think Egwene is just Egwene, but that's me.

There seems to be 2 types of human souls::

-Heroes of the Horn

-"regular" souls

The books seem to imply that every soul gets reborn.

Hero rebirths seem to be based on some kind of need since they are "bound to the Wheel".

I would guess that regular souls are reborn more often often than Heroes since then need for a Hero would seldom come.

 

[Durinax]

i really try and stay away from thinking that alot of the characters could or have been reborn in this age because remember its not like everyone's "soul" or something is like the Dragon's. not everyone else gets spun back out regularly. That's why i like to think Egwene is just Egwene, but that's me.

There seems to be 2 types of human souls::

-Heroes of the Horn

-"regular" souls

The books seem to imply that every soul gets reborn.

Hero rebirths seem to be based on some kind of need since they are "bound to the Wheel".

I would guess that regular souls are reborn more often often than Heroes since then need for a Hero would seldom come.

I hope there is a third category for super villains just to maintian balance

[Padraic_Seebrr]

i really try and stay away from thinking that alot of the characters could or have been reborn in this age because remember its not like everyone's "soul" or something is like the Dragon's. not everyone else gets spun back out regularly. That's why i like to think Egwene is just Egwene, but that's me.

There seems to be 2 types of human souls::

-Heroes of the Horn

-"regular" souls

The books seem to imply that every soul gets reborn.

Hero rebirths seem to be based on some kind of need since they are "bound to the Wheel".

I would guess that regular souls are reborn more often often than Heroes since then need for a Hero would seldom come.

 

 

 

Heroes of the Horn were regular souls before they did something heroic enough to be bound to the wheel. Since the Pattern makes ta'veren based on need to keep the balance, I would think that Heroes are spun out as often as anyone else. Since the Pattern itself isn't sentient (Or is it? O.O), it seems that if no Heroes were spun out in time to meet a crisis, it would make a ta'veren to maintain the balance out of a normal person. Mat and Perrin aren't Heroes bound to the horn, or at least they weren't before this turning.

[CUBAREY]

otherwise the character simply becomes an inconsistent distraction.

 

We call that a red herring. :P

[Hadilmir]

I hope there is a third category for super villains just to maintian balance

Perhaps Mierin? Someone's gotta screw up big time, why not have the same person do it every time?

[Durinax]

I hope there is a third category for super villains just to maintian balance

Perhaps Mierin? Someone's gotta screw up big time, why not have the same person do it every time?

I was thinking more of ishy, but she would do

[Random Man]

Heroes of the Horn were regular souls before they did something heroic enough to be bound to the wheel. Since the Pattern makes ta'veren based on need to keep the balance, I would think that Heroes are spun out as often as anyone else. Since the Pattern itself isn't sentient (Or is it? O.O), it seems that if no Heroes were spun out in time to meet a crisis, it would make a ta'veren to maintain the balance out of a normal person. Mat and Perrin aren't Heroes bound to the horn, or at least they weren't before this turning.

A crazy thought just came to me: if Heroes of the Horn were all regular souls to begin with and earned their right to be bound to the Wheel, and the Wheel has turned an infinite number of times, why aren't there an infinite number of Heroes? Wouldn't every soul in existence eventually do something heroic enough to be bound?

 

If so, then either Heroes become unbound at the rate that new Heroes become bound, or there are a finite amount of pre-bound Heroes who have always been predestined to be...um...heroic. If neither of these are true, then then there must necessarily be a finite beginning and a finite ending to the Wheel and it does not turn without beginning or end.