Towers of Midnight Speculation Thread (Spoilers for tGS)

[OHurley]

Just a weird hunch I've had since Cyndane appeared-

 

We've never seen anyone bounce back from death a la Shai'tan with LESS power than they had previously. Except Lanfear. I think we can all agree that Cyndane is Lanfear reborn. BUT- her strength took a dramatic dive upon rebirth.

 

Does anyone think that Lanfear and Moiraine swapped strength in the Power a la the Finn?

 

I mean, Cyndane's strength seems to be described much how Moiraine's would've been described prior to her dramatic departure from the story.

 

Just a hairbrained idea. But one that makes me think...

[Sharaman]

Nope, power-swap doesn't wash. Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear was but she's still stronger than Graendal according to Graendal's PoV and Graendal is stronger than almost everyone. Moiraine wasn't in the same league in terms of channeling strength. She was weaker than the Supergirls, Cadsuane. Someryn, etc.

 

[jemron]

Funny you should mention this, as I just posted this idea (not my own btw) on another thread.  The thing that is most interesting to me about this is that even Brandon Sanderson wasn't sure, and he told somebody that Cyndane was "very weak" or something.  He was then corrected by Maria (RJ's assistant) and he said it took some convincing on her version of it, but she clarified by the notes that Cyndane's power as Graendal saw it was accurate.  He stated that he had originally thought that her strange "difference in power" from Lanfear was some "trick of the DO to keep everyone guessing" or some such.  (Please note that my "quoted" text here isn't actually direct quotes from BS, I am paraphrasing).

 

I guess my point is, it is interesting that even Brandon was confused about why her power level was different from Lanfear's; but it is clear that she (Cyndane) is still more powerful than Moiraine was.  It will be interesting though if Moiraine comes back with more power than when she went in...

 

 

[Aleron688]

Nope, power-swap doesn't wash. Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear was but she's still stronger than Graendal according to Graendal's PoV and Graendal is stronger than almost everyone. Moiraine wasn't in the same league in terms of channeling strength. She was weaker than the Supergirls, Cadsuane. Someryn, etc.

 

 

 

this.  and she also wasn't healed by a male, because that only restores half the person's power.  if she is only half as strong as she was, and still stronger than Graendal, then there is a SERIOUS gap in between 1st and second strongest.  (although, i'm not sure if i can prove that it reduces by half... but that is the impression i get)

[jemron]

I've never seen proof that it reduces a channeler by half.  They are much less powerful than they were, but not necessarily by half.

 

Also, when Nyn healed Siuan and Leane, it was her first time, so maybe the weave has been perfected since, causing Cyndane to possibly have been "more healed" than Siuan and/or Leane were, but still not "entirely" healed.

 

Finally, has it occurred to anybody that Siuan and Leane were healed "fully" but that they were "reset" back to the amount of strength they started out with, and it will take them the same amount of years to build their individual strengths back up to what they previously had as it originally took them to build up their strength to that level before they were stilled?  Whoah, long question, but I think it makes sense...?

[OHurley]

I don't think raw strength in the power is learned. I think you're born with it or not. Matter fact, I'm sure of this. If this wasn't the case, there would be an entirely different AS hierarchical system.

[jemron]

Oh yeah, I think you're right.  I think though that potential and strength are two different things.  A woman's "potential" can be much greater than her current "strength" in the Power.  A man's strength jumps by leaps and bounds, but I think a woman's strength increases (until she reaches her full potential) gradually and steadily.

[Aleron688]

well we haven't had any reason to believe that Siuan and Leane have any room to grow in the power still.  And RJ said that both male and female channelers have discovered independantly that htye can heal the oppposite sex from stilling fully, but not the same gender.

 

... i dont know if what i said makes sense... it seems to to me tho :D

[Ted M]

Just a couple of quick notes on Gaidal Cain:

1)He disappeared from TAR before Brigitte did... which means he wasn't ripped out untimely in some sort of symmetry thing.

2)He was still in TAR when Olver was already a child who was more than a few years old.  He's not Olver.

3)When Min looked at Brigitte she saw a ton of images, but specifically noticed that there were a lot where she was with a man who was older than her, and a some where the man was younger than her, but they were all somehow the same person.  Min didn't understand, but it's obvious that they're all Gaidal, and the ones where he was older are the past lives, and the ones where he's much younger are this lifetime (some time after TG, presumably). 

[GamblersRuin]

Just a couple of quick notes on Gaidal Cain:

1)He disappeared from TAR before Brigitte did... which means he wasn't ripped out untimely in some sort of symmetry thing.

2)He was still in TAR when Olver was already a child who was more than a few years old.  He's not Olver.

3)When Min looked at Brigitte she saw a ton of images, but specifically noticed that there were a lot where she was with a man who was older than her, and a some where the man was younger than her, but they were all somehow the same person.  Min didn't understand, but it's obvious that they're all Gaidal, and the ones where he was older are the past lives, and the ones where he's much younger are this lifetime (some time after TG, presumably). 

 

Have been thinking about this topic since Birgitte got ripped from TAR.  I completely agree with your reasons and believed for a while that Olver couldn't possibly be Gaidal Cain.  However, when thinking further about it, I came up with a few reasons why he could be.

1). Olver's ugly face is constantly mentioned (Gaidal Cain didn't even come close to handsome according to Birgitte)

2). The extensive training in many different weapons thanks to the Band

3). In response to the meetings between Gaidal Cain and Birgitte in TAR while Olver already exists in Randland, it is often said how time flows differently in TAR.  In the few meetings before Birgitte is ripped from TAR, she says how she hasn't seen Gaidal in a while and he is probably being born somewhere.  What if time for her has been so different in TAR, that Gaidal was already spun into the pattern as Olver, and years have passed in the real world, while only weeks have in TAR? (I know it's a stretch, especially since I think Egwene or one of the girls sees Birgitte talking to a man in TAR, and we are led to believe that man is Gaidal Cain, but all other signs I feel point to Olver, and this is the one part I can't make fit.)

4). As for Min's viewings, I feel these are views of Birgitte's past lives and associations with Gaidal Cain.  This means that they are both interconnected when being spun out into the pattern.  However, Birgitte has been ripped from TAR, therefore upsetting the natural course of what would have happened.  Thus, Min seeing Gaidal around Birgitte, and looking roughly the same age, could jut be a reflection or glimmer of what was supposed to happen.

 

Onto a different topic: Min's viewing of Rand where 3 become 1.

My theory is Rand, Lews Therin, and Ishamael (or Moridin).  At the end of TGS we already see Rand and LT coming to terms.  All that's left is Moridin.  We already see that these two are connected in numerous ways.  The first is Moridin's constant ramblings to Rand whenever they meet.  He talks about how they have fought each other in all of their lives with every turning of the wheel and that they cannot escape each other.  The only way to escape is to have DO break the wheel and destroy the Pattern itself.  Then later, we see their two streams cross in Shadar Logoth, and this is where I believe they start a connection that will have a major bearing on TG.  There's subtle hints too that further show the depth of the connection between Rand and Moridin.  In the prologue of TGS, when Moridin is meeting with the Forsaken, there is a point when Graendal sees Moridin gets angry over Semhirage's failure and flex his left hand (same one that Rand just recently lost at this point in the story) and grimace in pain.  Also, there is the part when Rand has his dream with Moridin, despite Rand warding his dreams, and Moridin vaguely says how it was Rand seeking him out.  Lastly, I believe the stream crossing in Shadar Logoth is the only reason Rand was able to channel the True Power.  In a way, I don't think Moridin intended on the streams crossing at that time, but has found an interesting side effect.  I believe the evil coming from Rand for most of the book (no doubt part of it as a result of the immense pressure and strain he has undergone) is somewhat due to an influence from Moridin and perhaps becomes part of the DO's plan.  I believe either Moridin or the DO knew Rand was about to die from Semhirage's second attack and one of them allowed Rand to use the True Power.  Especially since Moridin wants to be the one to face Rand in the end.

 

Sorry this was long winded, but this was my first post to this site and I just finished the book today.

[analyticalkeys]

Just a couple of quick notes on Gaidal Cain:

1)He disappeared from TAR before Brigitte did... which means he wasn't ripped out untimely in some sort of symmetry thing.

2)He was still in TAR when Olver was already a child who was more than a few years old.  He's not Olver.

3)When Min looked at Brigitte she saw a ton of images, but specifically noticed that there were a lot where she was with a man who was older than her, and a some where the man was younger than her, but they were all somehow the same person.  Min didn't understand, but it's obvious that they're all Gaidal, and the ones where he was older are the past lives, and the ones where he's much younger are this lifetime (some time after TG, presumably). 

 

Have been thinking about this topic since Birgitte got ripped from TAR.  I completely agree with your reasons and believed for a while that Olver couldn't possibly be Gaidal Cain.  However, when thinking further about it, I came up with a few reasons why he could be.

1). Olver's ugly face is constantly mentioned (Gaidal Cain didn't even come close to handsome according to Birgitte)

2). The extensive training in many different weapons thanks to the Band

3). In response to the meetings between Gaidal Cain and Birgitte in TAR while Olver already exists in Randland, it is often said how time flows differently in TAR.  In the few meetings before Birgitte is ripped from TAR, she says how she hasn't seen Gaidal in a while and he is probably being born somewhere.  What if time for her has been so different in TAR, that Gaidal was already spun into the pattern as Olver, and years have passed in the real world, while only weeks have in TAR? (I know it's a stretch, especially since I think Egwene or one of the girls sees Birgitte talking to a man in TAR, and we are led to believe that man is Gaidal Cain, but all other signs I feel point to Olver, and this is the one part I can't make fit.)

4). As for Min's viewings, I feel these are views of Birgitte's past lives and associations with Gaidal Cain.  This means that they are both interconnected when being spun out into the pattern.  However, Birgitte has been ripped from TAR, therefore upsetting the natural course of what would have happened.  Thus, Min seeing Gaidal around Birgitte, and looking roughly the same age, could jut be a reflection or glimmer of what was supposed to happen.

 

Onto a different topic: Min's viewing of Rand where 3 become 1.

My theory is Rand, Lews Therin, and Ishamael (or Moridin).  At the end of TGS we already see Rand and LT coming to terms.  All that's left is Moridin.  We already see that these two are connected in numerous ways.  The first is Moridin's constant ramblings to Rand whenever they meet.  He talks about how they have fought each other in all of their lives with every turning of the wheel and that they cannot escape each other.  The only way to escape is to have DO break the wheel and destroy the Pattern itself.  Then later, we see their two streams cross in Shadar Logoth, and this is where I believe they start a connection that will have a major bearing on TG.  There's subtle hints too that further show the depth of the connection between Rand and Moridin.  In the prologue of TGS, when Moridin is meeting with the Forsaken, there is a point when Graendal sees Moridin gets angry over Semhirage's failure and flex his left hand (same one that Rand just recently lost at this point in the story) and grimace in pain.  Also, there is the part when Rand has his dream with Moridin, despite Rand warding his dreams, and Moridin vaguely says how it was Rand seeking him out.  Lastly, I believe the stream crossing in Shadar Logoth is the only reason Rand was able to channel the True Power.  In a way, I don't think Moridin intended on the streams crossing at that time, but has found an interesting side effect.  I believe the evil coming from Rand for most of the book (no doubt part of it as a result of the immense pressure and strain he has undergone) is somewhat due to an influence from Moridin and perhaps becomes part of the DO's plan.  I believe either Moridin or the DO knew Rand was about to die from Semhirage's second attack and one of them allowed Rand to use the True Power.  Especially since Moridin wants to be the one to face Rand in the end.

 

Sorry this was long winded, but this was my first post to this site and I just finished the book today.

 

RJ said that Olver is not Gaidal Cain.

[Declan]

i love how that guy wrote a long long post and can be refuted by ten words. awesome.

 

we might not ever see Gaidal Cain. unless at the very end of the books there is a post-TG chapter when they get together.

[Ashaman DeRouge]

A thought on Moiraine, someone posted earlier about what her mental state might be after coming out of the Towers. Speculation that she might be insane yada yada yada anyway, my personal belief is that she will come out with a PLAN, and will damn well do anything to see it done. That being said, I also think she will be more willing to work -with- Rand, rather than for him.

 

With Rand ascending himself at the end of tGS, the timing is PERFECT for her to come along, and guide Rand, with Rand actually listening to her ideas.

 

What a brilliant arc.

[WolfDragonFox]

well we haven't had any reason to believe that Siuan and Leane have any room to grow in the power still.  And RJ said that both male and female channelers have discovered independantly that htye can heal the oppposite sex from stilling fully, but not the same gender.

 

... i dont know if what i said makes sense... it seems to to me tho :D

 

This is not only correct, it is proven in the books.  When Flinn heals that AS he healed(can't remember of the top of my head who she was) she was fully restored.  When Nynaeve healed Logain he was back to full strength but she did the same to Suian and Leane and no dice because the huge theme in the books is balance and equality for men and women so Flinn is eventually gonna meet Suian and Leane when all the armies gather or he will go with rand as part of his envoy to confront the wrath of Egwene and some tension in that room will be relieved when Rand points out that Flinn can get those two back up to snuff for the Last Battle, I dont think they should be or will be left with their new lower power level when all things are coming to an end, it just served a purpose of getting them under the radar on the ridiculous AS heirarchy system (FLAWED) which Egwene stated in TGS that she is gonna be changing to knowledge, experience and seniority rather than power level!

[Aleron688]

well we haven't had any reason to believe that Siuan and Leane have any room to grow in the power still.  And RJ said that both male and female channelers have discovered independantly that htye can heal the oppposite sex from stilling fully, but not the same gender.

 

... i dont know if what i said makes sense... it seems to to me tho :D

 

This is not only correct, it is proven in the books.  When Flinn heals that AS he healed(can't remember of the top of my head who she was) she was fully restored.  When Nynaeve healed Logain he was back to full strength but she did the same to Suian and Leane and no dice because the huge theme in the books is balance and equality for men and women so Flinn is eventually gonna meet Suian and Leane when all the armies gather or he will go with rand as part of his envoy to confront the wrath of Egwene and some tension in that room will be relieved when Rand points out that Flinn can get those two back up to snuff for the Last Battle, I dont think they should be or will be left with their new lower power level when all things are coming to an end, it just served a purpose of getting them under the radar on the ridiculous AS heirarchy system (FLAWED) which Egwene stated in TGS that she is gonna be changing to knowledge, experience and seniority rather than power level!

 

ty for proving my point.  and i still like to believe they can only heal their own gender by half (once again, with the balancing thing... seems to work for me, although i have no proof for it)

 

as to Siuan and Leane being restored to full power, i'm not so sure i think that is gunna happen.  not everything in life is fair, and i just get the feeling that them being restored to full power really doesn't affect the story enough to make it necessary. 

 

Also, I don't think Flinn will just be able to "heal" them again.  They have already been healed.  How can you heal a healed wound? you can't... it's already done.  That's just my opinion tho.

[Sentinel78]

Also, I don't think Flinn will just be able to "heal" them again.  They have already been healed.  How can you heal a healed wound? you can't... it's already done.  That's just my opinion tho.

 

You could still them again and re-heal through an Ashaman, unless their potential is now 'reset' to the lower level.  This might very well not happen in the last two books, but after things stabilize after TG it's only a matter of time before Siuan/Leane hear stories - or actually meet - the sisters Flinn healed, and realize their capacity has not diminished and put two and two together.

[Aleron688]

Also, I don't think Flinn will just be able to "heal" them again.  They have already been healed.  How can you heal a healed wound? you can't... it's already done.  That's just my opinion tho.

 

You could still them again and re-heal through an Ashaman, unless their potential is now 'reset' to the lower level.  This might very well not happen in the last two books, but after things stabilize after TG it's only a matter of time before Siuan/Leane hear stories - or actually meet - the sisters Flinn healed, and realize their capacity has not diminished and put two and two together.

 

indeed.  i can see this happening at some point, but i don't think it's very likely we will see it in the next two books.  furthermore, i think that their power level has been reset to the lower one that they were at when healed by siuan.  once again, just my opinion, and i think it would be interesting to see it put to the test, but it just doesn't seem likely that stilling and then re-healing them will restore them to their original potential.

[aunt_pol]

 

 

I think we're on something really interesting here, for two reasons.

 

1: Siuan and Leane ruled half the flippin' world, near as dammit, when they had their full strength. Look how well that ended. Siuan admits, at least to herself, in either KOD or TGS, that the Tower falling asunder was at least partially her own fault. She ruled by decree, survived by manipulating the Hall or keeping them totally in the dark. I think her reduction in status  and Power is almost a punishment for wasting the power & influence she did have. Since her stilling, and her subsequent Healing to a lower level, she's learned an awful lot about respect, humility, and what vulnerability is actually like. I think it's an even toss as to whether she gets the 'reward' of full restoration.

 

2: Is it not saying something fundamental about the OP, and how it works, that it takes saidar to fully restore the link to saidin, and vice versa? I mean, when Rand & Nyn are cleansing Saidin, don't both of them have extensive POVs about the alien nature of  the opposite half of the Source? Is this what we're missing about Callandor? I'm feeling a bit 'bear-of-little-brain' about this, because I feel there's something good in here, but I can't (or don't have enough info to) pin it down. It seems we've been sold saidar and saidin as two totally separate entities joined together, but the Healing thing is making me wonder.

 

 

[WolfDragonFox]

Since her stilling, and her subsequent Healing to a lower level, she's learned an awful lot about respect, humility, and what vulnerability is actually like. I think it's an even toss as to whether she gets the 'reward' of full restoration.

 

Okay this is true, and also it has made Suian realize how much she could manipulate in ways she never could before through being underestimated and deemed inconsequential.  So I am not of an opinion truly either way on whether or not they WILL be healed to full strength but like I pointed out in my above post, In TGS Egwene had the thought that she will be making the heirarchy change to experience, knowledge, and seniority rather than the stupid way of having power level dictate position of deference.  This will make Suian and Leane highest in standing again when this change comes about so truly they have no need to regain their full power but they are almost useless in the last battle if they don't get that back so I still think it will happen via happenstance that Rand brings along Flinn and his bonded AS including the once stilled ones.  No one is going to recognize them because they lost the ageless look and their pre-ageless face isn't the same either because remember Suian and Leane didn't recognize their own faces as even that of their faces before gaining the ageless look.  So this will cause people to wonder who those AS are and when they are revealed to be once stilled now healed sisters with full power, Leane and Suian will be taking Flinn to the side to get some new better surgery on those powers.  I think, like in real life it when someone gets an operation but the surgery is not well done, they go in and get it undone and done better, Flinn will just go in and connnect the correct dots.

[WolfDragonFox]

[glow=red,2,300]CRAZY NEW THOUGHT!!![/glow]

 

I just thought about something pertaining to the Blade of light, 3 become one prophecy....GO SEE THAT THREAD TO CHECK OUT MY NEW THEORY ON IT AND MY OLD ONES THAT I'M NOT ABANDONING BECAUSE THIS IS JUST OUTRAGEOUS...LOL

[Samudor]

I don't think the two of them will be restored...and it's because of the other theme of loss and sacrifice that RJ has worked through his books- that's also the reason Rand won't get his hand back, and he may even die. It's also the same reason we won't see Morgase return to the throne. Life just isn't fair, and I like that sometimes bad stuff happens to good people. A far cry from what we see so often in other books of this kind. I love RJ making Sheriam a darkfriend- because I liked her. I also thought it was nice to see someone make a strong decision for once- simply executing them all! Egwene is awesome!!!!!

 

So.... how many pieces will Egwene slice Rand into when he surrenders to the Seanchan? That ought to be interesting.... When Moiraine returns from the Tower, I'm guessing she will no longer be Aes Sedai. I'll bet that her trip through the terangreal burned her out. I'm guessing that's how Lanfear lost so much of her power. Not like she needs to have the One Power to bully Rand into  doing what she sees is right! Any thoughts on this?

[Chivalry]

I don't think the two of them will be restored...and it's because of the other theme of loss and sacrifice that RJ has worked through his books- that's also the reason Rand won't get his hand back, and he may even die. It's also the same reason we won't see Morgase return to the throne. Life just isn't fair, and I like that sometimes bad stuff happens to good people. A far cry from what we see so often in other books of this kind. I love RJ making Sheriam a darkfriend- because I liked her. I also thought it was nice to see someone make a strong decision for once- simply executing them all! Egwene is awesome!!!!!

 

So.... how many pieces will Egwene slice Rand into when he surrenders to the Seanchan? That ought to be interesting.... When Moiraine returns from the Tower, I'm guessing she will no longer be Aes Sedai. I'll bet that her trip through the terangreal burned her out. I'm guessing that's how Lanfear lost so much of her power. Not like she needs to have the One Power to bully Rand into  doing what she sees is right! Any thoughts on this?

 

Rand will not surrender to the Seanchan.  The Seanchan prophecies are twisted -- he will not bow to the Seanchan throne.  The Seanchan don't even know what Trollocs are, for crying out loud.

 

I still think Rand may end up bonding Tuon -- bond as in "binding" the Nine Moons to him.  That's the prophecy that I think carries weight, not the warped Seanchan version where everything revolves around the Empire.  That'll get Tuon's attention.

 

Oh, and Egwene is not awesome.  Neither is her Backstreet Boyfriend.  ;D

[WolfDragonFox]

I still think Rand may end up bonding Tuon -- bond as in "binding" the Nine Moons to him.  That's the prophecy that I think carries weight, not the warped Seanchan version where everything revolves around the Empire.  That'll get Tuon's attention.

 

Oh, and Egwene is not awesome.  Neither is her Backstreet Boyfriend.   ;D

 

 

Okay couple of comments on your post here bud.  First off I think the bonding of Tuon is a funny new wrinkle and thought that may damn well be true not to mention awesome, of course he would have to release her eventually cuz Mat would be pissed.

 

Now to the bad...You don't think Egwene is awesome.  I don't understand some people on this forum.  I love every single character in this series, even the ones I hate, I only hate cuz they are so well written that it drives me to feel what I was intended to feel.  Its not you only btw so don't think i'm attacking or assuming i know your thought process but I don't get it.  Egwene is on of the most fantastic characters in the book, She is the Amyriln of no Ajah, youngest in history, doesn't take crap off anyone, and is the greatest leader these stuck up AS will ever have cuz she has training 3 times over.  Amyrlin Traing from Suian, Wisdom Training from Nynaeve, and Wise One Training from the Aiel Wise Ones.  She draws from all those strengths and OWNZ everyone that crosses her.  Someone tell me if some folks are reading an Abridged Version of this series.

[Samudor]

I also dont get the Egwene hating- gawyn yes i can understand because he's a moron- but Egwene? What's not to like about her? She literally grew up before our eyes from books 2 to 6. Then, asserted control applying what she had learned from Siuan. Why do you think Ishamael needed her and Nynaeve to be collared and taken across the ocean so badly? He knew what they would become- especially Egwene. Her role in all of this is pivotal- without her unifying force, the Tower falls to the Seanchan in very short order(mostly because the AS are all chicken #### morons), and Rand very well ends up collared himself because the only women left not collared are the few with him or Black Ajah. Egwene is one of those classical heroines in that she is strong but flexible, wise beyond her years but willing to act decisvely when necessary. What's not to like?

[Chivalry]

I also dont get the Egwene hating- gawyn yes i can understand because he's a moron- but Egwene? What's not to like about her? She literally grew up before our eyes from books 2 to 6. Then, asserted control applying what she had learned from Siuan. Why do you think Ishamael needed her and Nynaeve to be collared and taken across the ocean so badly? He knew what they would become- especially Egwene. Her role in all of this is pivotal- without her unifying force, the Tower falls to the Seanchan in very short order(mostly because the AS are all chicken #### morons), and Rand very well ends up collared himself because the only women left not collared are the few with him or Black Ajah. Egwene is one of those classical heroines in that she is strong but flexible, wise beyond her years but willing to act decisvely when necessary. What's not to like?

 

To each his own, I guess.  We all have our favorites, and there's no right or wrong about it.  We all enjoy the series.  Some of us have unfavorites as well.  I've never liked Egwene, and I don't care how gifted her character happens to be.  You don't need to convince me of all her awesome powers.  And I don't care how pivotal her role may be.  I understand that, and I wish her role was less pivotal, because I don't like her.  I didn't like her in The Eye of the World, and I liked her less as the series progressed (although I will admit, I disliked her less in TGS).

 

Did I mention I dislike Egwene?  ;)