Prologue "What the Storm Means" Spoiler Thread

[Gilmadin]

Ok I'm kinda fuzzy on this whole thing but I'll propose it anyway. I seem to recall that when all the Borderlanders meet to decide on wether to head south or not there was something odd about Agelmar. I can't remember if he was absent or what but I'm just going off what I remember. Anyways I'm not saying Demandred has been Agelmar from the start, but from what I can remember, after The eye of the World he was seen in a different light. I think if he's in the Borderlands that might be the greatest possibility.

 

Not to be mean, but I think this one is pretty dumb. Come on, people... I mean... AGELMAR?!?!

 

I also read up above somewhere that Demandred might be in Shienar because of the small civil war they fought up there. I remember a long time ago, someone asked RJ if we would ever see the Sniffer Hurin again. RJ said "yes." He also said that we should have been able to glean at least a little of what he's been up to since, just by the reaction in Shienar to the news that he brought back. So I think that the fighting in Shienar was just a result of Hurin bringing word of Rand as the Dragon Reborn, not some epic huge Forsaken plot.

[sheikh chilli]

what a short prologue.... disappointed with the length.

 

any how, few things.

 

moridi/rand merging thing is in effect. this thing could end as one of the greatest plots ever or end up as some retarded BS.

 

masema. kinda feel sorry for him. never got to see rand. probably manipulated by a forsaken.

 

demandred. hate seeing him subsiervient to moridin.my fave forsaken after ishy. moridin sucks as a character.

 

graendal. her chasing of rand could be interesting part of the book

 

mesana: worthless forsaken. just like asmodean. i put taim ahead of her.

[Mr. Micawber]

what a short prologue.... disappointed with the length.

 

any how, few things.

 

moridi/rand merging thing is in effect. this thing could end as one of the greatest plots ever or end up as some retarded BS.

 

masema. kinda feel sorry for him. never got to see rand. probably manipulated by a forsaken.

 

demandred. hate seeing him subsiervient to moridin.my fave forsaken after ishy. moridin sucks as a character.

 

graendal. her chasing of rand could be interesting part of the book

 

mesana: worthless forsaken. just like asmodean. i put taim ahead of her.

 

Err, mate, I hate to break this to you, but you are aware that Elan Morin Tedronai-is-Ishamael-is-Ba'alzamon-is-Moridin-is-Watcher-is-Wanderer?

 

Because they're all the same dude, just with a new body.

[sheikh chilli]

i know moridin is ishy ressurected but i get the feeling that moridin and ishy's behaviour are quite not the same.

 

ishy seems kinda different to moridin. i dunno. Elan morin tedronai was as grandiose and awe striking as they come.

 

moridin seems to be a touch below ishy at least in the madness stakes

[Mr. Micawber]

i know moridin is ishy ressurected but i get the feeling that moridin and ishy's behaviour are quite not the same.

 

ishy seems kinda different to moridin. i dunno. Elan morin tedronai was as grandiose and awe striking as they come.

 

moridin seems to be a touch below ishy at least in the madness stakes

 

Hehe, yea, he is definitely less nutso.

 

To quote Leigh Butler on Ishy/Moridin, ", a sucking chest wound is nature’s way of telling you to slow down." And I'm sure the whole getting blasted by crazy Rand and Callandor probably tells you it's time for a trip to the Ansaline Gardens with a featherdancer or three.

[RAMb0211]

Hey just thought I'd bring something new to the table. No need to shoot me down.

[nnokwoodeye]

Am I the only one who found the idea of darkfriends playing farmers in the blight a bit odd? It seems kind of pointless, why would moridin let them waste their time on this? Unless of course the blight is the polar-opposite of the world and is becoming more fertile as the world become... more like the blight.

 

Also was Graendal drinking lemonade? Must be very depressing to come from a world where every kid could start their own lemonade stand to a world where it is a rare exotic drink. No wonder the forsaken are so dismissive of the third agers.

[Theodor89]

Yeah, and what about the armoured darkfriend soldiers? It seems the Shadow is not only going to use trollocs and Myrdraal. The whole part with the Forsaken meeting in the blight was cool because it shows that things are going on in the Blight that we really don't know anything about.

 

Darkfriend soldiers, fortresses and farmers. Who else knows what surprises the Shadow is preparing up in the Blight? It would be smart of Rand to at least scout the area out.

[Aemon raHal]

Surprises in the Blight for sure.

 

But what about in other places? Human armies will be necessary.

We know that there are quite a few DF's around the place (in cells), but they don't seem to be organised into armies.

 

So either the strategy is to have high-placed DF's who can order armies or batallions of the Armies Of The Light to serve the Shadow's cause, or they have places such as the blight to train their DF army.

 

I really hope Shaara is a DF and Dreadlord training ground. :)

 

 

[Razor]

for Faile we see some much neded redemption.

[Charlz Guybon]

I think that, if Murandred (heh) plays out as other posters believe, I will be extremely disappointed in RJ/BS.

 

Indeed, even when we depart from the disunity of Murandian politics, from a quantitative perspective, Murandy is an extraordinarily weak country - in population levels, in resources, in land mass. It is, in essence, a backwater.

 

Frankly, for the story to be *compelling*, I think that the Shadow has to even the channeling numbers somehow. We have Suroth's word that DFs in the sul'daming population are extremely low, and I would guess that WO/WF are similarly underrepresented in the Shadow camp. Moreover, Taim seems to control at least 100 powerful and well trained channelers, and so I would say that, added to remaining Saidin Da'concion, that makes the Shadow around even in the Saidin department.

 

 

I always had the impression that Murandy, though small was densely populated.

 

As for evening the channeling numbers, it's not really neccessary. They only need enough to keep the channelers on the side of the light busy long enough for the Trollocs hordes to close with the Human armies. The Ten Nations would have had millions of men under arms at their peak during the Trolloc Wars presuming a militirazation rate similar to that of Japan during the Sengoku period. Yet the Trollocs had the numbers to fight them, 600,000 Aiel spears and millions of more soldiers in Shara at the same time. So the forces of the Light are gonna be swamped even with the hundreds of thousands of soldiers brought over from Seanchan. I'd estimate that the Shadow really only needs to muster about 1/5th to 1/4th as many channelers as the Light.

[Charlz Guybon]

Oh, and I remember one other major thing that counts against Murandred.

 

Roedran is so impressed by Madoc Comadrin that he's having copies printed.

 

Demandred was arguably the best Shadow general during the First War.

 

Considering his psychological issues with being anything but the best is what turned him in the first place(ie. the "Almost" man described in the Big Book with the Bad Artwork and LOC), and his constant disparaging of the current world as primitive, it is almost impossible to imagine him being so enthralled by another general, and one from the 3rd Age to boot.

 

 

 

Demandred doesn't have to be Roedran himself, he could be the power behind the throne, an advisor similar to Semirhage.

[perrin51]

One thing that needs to be said about Murandy, is that a good portion of the Murandian Nobles and available fighting men were scooped up by Egwene and Talmanes on their trek across Murandy. The Andorans snapped up some more in the meeting with Egwene at the frozen lake.

 

As to Shara, there is a paralell between what is going on now in WOT and tLotR. In the battle at Gondor, humans, both Corsairs and barbarians (not necessarily evil), were used by the forces of evil. We all know that RJ started the series based on tLotR.

 

Now as for what went in in Seandar and the rest of Seanchan, we only have Semi's word on that. Not the most trustworthy source. At that time she was trying to convince Suroth to usurp the throne. Now with that said, what better way to take control of a really powerful and ordered society than to throw it into chaos and then bring stability. I am also sure that Demandred could make really good use of the "Compulsion"/Crystal Throne.

[Majsju]

An interesting thing about Graendals visit to Moridins palace - that Moridin needs guards. Seems like there are some creepy crawlies out there that does not have to obey those with the Chosen Mark, like trollocs and myrdraal must do. Really makes me want to see a forsaken being eaten by something big and nasty. ;D

[Aemon raHal]

Yeah, Moridin tries to ride one of the Worms to Shayul Ghul to make a bad-ass entrance...

He waits for it to make its pass so he can jump on, but then it just eats him.

 

Rand waits and waits... then cuts his hand on a rock and cries.

 

[Aiemond]

An interesting thing about Graendals visit to Moridins palace - that Moridin needs guards. Seems like there are some creepy crawlies out there that does not have to obey those with the Chosen Mark, like trollocs and myrdraal must do. Really makes me want to see a forsaken being eaten by something big and nasty. ;D

 

Ya. They seem just like feral beasts. Will they fight for the DO at the last battle or will they just do what they have always done? Those things are very nasty, and worms were only just the beginning. I wonder what is beyond the high pass.

[Mr. Micawber]

 

 

I always had the impression that Murandy, though small was densely populated.

 

As for evening the channeling numbers, it's not really neccessary. They only need enough to keep the channelers on the side of the light busy long enough for the Trollocs hordes to close with the Human armies. The Ten Nations would have had millions of men under arms at their peak during the Trolloc Wars presuming a militirazation rate similar to that of Japan during the Sengoku period. Yet the Trollocs had the numbers to fight them, 600,000 Aiel spears and millions of more soldiers in Shara at the same time. So the forces of the Light are gonna be swamped even with the hundreds of thousands of soldiers brought over from Seanchan. I'd estimate that the Shadow really only needs to muster about 1/5th to 1/4th as many channelers as the Light.

 

I recall the BBWBA saying that the country's population is small - it's just that Lugard is like the Chicago of Randland, and so the depiction we get is that it's this incredibly dense warren that acts as the center of the wagon trade. I hope that they start sending steam wagons there soon. :)

 

And the impression I got of both the Trolloc Wars and the First War of the Shadow - based on comments from Mat during his flashback sequence, Aes Sedai discussion, and the BBWBA - is that there was a lot more than 1/5 to 1/4 of the channeling potential on the Shadow's side.

 

Also, the entire time frame of the books can't be more than two years. During those two years, the Trollocs were wiped out to a man at Tarwin's Gap, the Two Rivers, at the Stone, in the Waste multiple times, and another huge disaster in Tear.

 

Whereas the beginning of the Trolloc Wars saw *human* armies defeated and entire cities being wiped out across the board before anyone could respond.

[Owners.Inc]

 

 

I always had the impression that Murandy, though small was densely populated.

 

As for evening the channeling numbers, it's not really neccessary. They only need enough to keep the channelers on the side of the light busy long enough for the Trollocs hordes to close with the Human armies. The Ten Nations would have had millions of men under arms at their peak during the Trolloc Wars presuming a militirazation rate similar to that of Japan during the Sengoku period. Yet the Trollocs had the numbers to fight them, 600,000 Aiel spears and millions of more soldiers in Shara at the same time. So the forces of the Light are gonna be swamped even with the hundreds of thousands of soldiers brought over from Seanchan. I'd estimate that the Shadow really only needs to muster about 1/5th to 1/4th as many channelers as the Light.

 

I recall the BBWBA saying that the country's population is small - it's just that Lugard is like the Chicago of Randland, and so the depiction we get is that it's this incredibly dense warren that acts as the center of the wagon trade. I hope that they start sending steam wagons there soon. :)

 

And the impression I got of both the Trolloc Wars and the First War of the Shadow - based on comments from Mat during his flashback sequence, Aes Sedai discussion, and the BBWBA - is that there was a lot more than 1/5 to 1/4 of the channeling potential on the Shadow's side.

 

Also, the entire time frame of the books can't be more than two years. During those two years, the Trollocs were wiped out to a man at Tarwin's Gap, the Two Rivers, at the Stone, in the Waste multiple times, and another huge disaster in Tear.

 

Whereas the beginning of the Trolloc Wars saw *human* armies defeated and entire cities being wiped out across the board before anyone could respond.

 

There is no indication that they were wiped out to a man in any of those cases. In Tarwin's Gap, I believe the Shadow sent enough to overwhelm Shienar, but not the rest of the world. Similarly, the trollocs at TR were a result of Slayer's request for back-up (I think), not the whole fighting force. Trollocs stopped entering the Waste, they call it the Dying Ground. I'm not so sure about Tear.

[Mr. Micawber]

Reread the ending of TEOTW. It says that:

 

a. the entire army of Shienar was outnumbered maybe even over ten to one, and it was getting ready for its desperation charge

 

b. Rand calls out that it has to end, and using the Eye of the World, he obliterates pretty much everything save some Draghkar I think.

[Gilmadin]

Reread the ending of TEOTW. It says that:

 

a. the entire army of Shienar was outnumbered maybe even over ten to one, and it was getting ready for its desperation charge

 

b. Rand calls out that it has to end, and using the Eye of the World, he obliterates pretty much everything save some Draghkar I think.

 

I don't think anyone is saying that those particular armies weren't destroyed completely. I think what they are saying is that those armies, as big as they may have seemed to the forces of the Light at the time, were nowhere near the total strength of the Shadow. If you keep reading that section, Rand is talking to Ba'alzamon and says "Every trap you've laid for me, I have escaped. I've escaped your Fades and Trollocs, escaped your Darkfriends. I tracked you here, and destroyed your army on the way." Skip a paragraph, and Ba'alzamon/Ishy says: "Other armies can be raised, fool. Armies you have not dreamed of will yet come."

 

The DO has yet to unveil his surprises, he has yet to throw his heaviest punches (to paraphrase RJ...) The attack on the manor house in KoD saw a hundred Myrddraall and tens of thousands of Trollocs killed by Rand and his boys/girls. When Moridin tells the other Forsaken about all these Trollocs disappearing, he isn't freaking out about how much a blow these missing Trollocs will be to their overall strength of arms -- he's pissed off about it because someone (and he thinks it is Sammael) is disobeying orders, going off and doing his own thing.

[Nimic]

And, I think this point that Graendal makes, that he had nearly been the Dragon himself, is another vote in favor of Shara. Recall that Rhuarc reports that Shara has been thrown into fighting because of "news of the DR". We know that Graendal stole their leaders, *but* what if Shara thinks that Demandred is the Dragon Reborn? And what if he brings his new followers into the Westlands where there's a "false Dragon"? That's about the only way I can see the Shadow gaining control of an entire people at this stage in the game, having first convinced them *they* are the warriors of the Light.

 

The first thing that popped into my head as Demandred said his lines was "Shara". That doesn't mean I think it's likely, though. It's probably not it. He said his rule was secure, and I don't think it was too many books back when we were told that there was fighting in Shara over the Dragon Reborn.

 

Crazy theory: is it possible that Demandred is posing as the Dragon Reborn, in Shara? The fighting could have been over him, and possibly he could have 'secured' his rule by now. Probably not.

 

;D

[nnokwoodeye]

Yeah, Moridin tries to ride one of the Worms to Shayul Ghul to make a bad-ass entrance...

He waits for it to make its pass so he can jump on, but then it just eats him.

 

Rand waits and waits... then cuts his hand on a rock and cries.

 

Yes, Elan Morin sounds like the kind of guy who would be a fan of DUNE. That series can really mess up the philosophically inclined...

[Charlz Guybon]

Reread the ending of TEOTW. It says that:

 

a. the entire army of Shienar was outnumbered maybe even over ten to one, and it was getting ready for its desperation charge

 

b. Rand calls out that it has to end, and using the Eye of the World, he obliterates pretty much everything save some Draghkar I think.

 

I don't think anyone is saying that those particular armies weren't destroyed completely. I think what they are saying is that those armies, as big as they may have seemed to the forces of the Light at the time, were nowhere near the total strength of the Shadow. If you keep reading that section, Rand is talking to Ba'alzamon and says "Every trap you've laid for me, I have escaped. I've escaped your Fades and Trollocs, escaped your Darkfriends. I tracked you here, and destroyed your army on the way." Skip a paragraph, and Ba'alzamon/Ishy says: "Other armies can be raised, fool. Armies you have not dreamed of will yet come."

 

The DO has yet to unveil his surprises, he has yet to throw his heaviest punches (to paraphrase RJ...) The attack on the manor house in KoD saw a hundred Myrddraall and tens of thousands of Trollocs killed by Rand and his boys/girls. When Moridin tells the other Forsaken about all these Trollocs disappearing, he isn't freaking out about how much a blow these missing Trollocs will be to their overall strength of arms -- he's pissed off about it because someone (and he thinks it is Sammael) is disobeying orders, going off and doing his own thing.

 

I'm disputing it. Rand only killed half the Trollocs at Tarwin's gap. He unnerved the remainder enough that they routed when the Shienarans charged. The Two Rivers had maybe 10,000 Trollocs in it, that's chump change. So at Tear 100,000 Trollocs were killed and at Tarwin's Gap several hundred thousand more were slain.  That isn't that bad especially when you have two years worth of maturing Trollocs entering the force to make up for those killed at the Gap.

[DemandredFO]

Between the Trolloc Wars and this time a few things are different

a.  in the Trollocs Wars only Ishy was free, now they all are(no matter how many are dead the only ones that didn't cause chaos are Aginor and Balthemel 1st time and Be'lal)

b.  Now there's the black ajah

c.  There are probably, but not certain, more darkfriends now.  Soceity went backwards.

The world was pretty much united before the Trollocs Wars which is why Ishy smashed them and it still took 300 years; whereas the world is anything but united.

Last, think of it this way, the Library of Alexandria destroyed in the Trolloc Wars and it's dumber cousin was destroyed in the war or the hundred years.

[Fel]

On a different topic from the prologue, did anyone else take notice of Mesaana's dress?

 

"Mesaana seated herself. She had chin-length dark hair and watery blue eyes. Her floor-length white dress bore no embroidery, and she wore no jewelry. A scholar to the core. Sometimes Graendal thought Mesaana had gone over to the Shadow because it offered a more interesting opportunity for research.", [brandon Sanderson, What the Storm Means: The Prologue to The Gathering Storm]

...

"Mesaana cut in, stepping forward, plain dress brushing the mirror-bright black marble floor.", [brandon Sanderson, What the Storm Means: The Prologue to The Gathering Storm]

 

Immediately, my mind jumped to a novice dress!  I know people have gone on and on speculating about this sister or that for mesaana, but could she simply be posing as a novice?  I mean, before coming to this meeting, she likely would not take the time to change and the dress described seems to match a novice white.  It would make it much easier than posing as a sister and having to learn all of her intricate histories.

 

Did this sections strike anyone else?