Birgitte, Elayne and channeling

[linkgoron]

Just a quick question.

I searched and couldn't find anything, so I was wondering if you guys can help me.

 

There are a couple of times in the books when Elayne tells Birgitte to do something, and Birgitte will blush and obey without question. Elayne always wonders what she did, or how she acted, to make Birgitte obey.

Err, it always seemed to me that Birigitte obeyed when Elayne was holding the power. So does it basically mean that when Elayne is holding the power Birgitte has some sort of compulsion on her? Just wondering if this has been talked about, because I always wondered if what I saw was correct.

 

Thanks!

[mb]

A channeler is able to compel its non-channeling warder to obey; that seems to come with the warder bond.

 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

I think Brigitte would obey when she thought Elayne was acting like an Aes Sedia or in public. 

[Mr Ares]

A channeler is able to compel its non-channeling warder to obey; that seems to come with the warder bond.

It is a part of the bond, but it is something done by the concious choice of the bond holder, not something that happens automatically with holding the Power. So if Elayne is compelling Birgitte, she knows she is doing it.

[linkgoron]

I'm talking about something that is not done consciously, but as as side-effect of holding the power.

Not like what happened with Lan and Myrelle, or what Alanna tried to do to Rand, but something that Elayne wasn't aware of.

 

I don't have my books right now, so I can't give you examples, but maybe some of you can look up those chapters where Birgitte obeys Elayne without question. It seemed to me like it always happened when Elayne was holding the power, and always left Elayne wondering what she was doing to make Birgitte obey.

[Mr Ares]

I'm talking about something that is not done consciously, but as as side-effect of holding the power.

Then no, that's not how the compulsive aspect of the bond works.

[Phariah]

i think your just seeing the mirrorring effects of the bond on a woman bonding another woman for your blushes and such, and Bridgette is still her warder so she will do her tasks but what your reading into i think is just the visible effects of them mirrorring each others emotional state at times

[linkgoron]

I'm talking about something that is not done consciously, but as as side-effect of holding the power.

Then no, that's not how the compulsive aspect of the bond works.

I understand that's not how the compulsive aspect of the bond works on a normal Female-Male bond (We've seen it used on Lan by Myrelle).

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. Im talking about a side-effect from the Female-Female type of bond. That When Elayne is holding the power Birgitte is under some sort of compulsion, that she has to obey Elayne.

[trakand_01]

I also wonder if Elayne and Birgitte have some sort of agreement similar to Nyn and Lan - if one REALLY insists on the other doing (ie Elayne) then she does. Or perhaps Birgitte feels some duty to Elayne because she kept her alive and continues to do so (although granted B no longer needs it)

[Mr Ares]

Maybe I wasn't clear enough.

You were. It doesn't work like that.

[Alric]

I just read this in KoD:

 

"No." Elayne sighed, fighting not to feel outraged as well. [...] "I will not begin by breaking the law." The bond carried something... stubborn. She fixed Birgitte with a steady look. "Neither will you. Do you understand me, Birgitte Trahelion? Neither will you."

 

To her surprise, the stubbornness lasted only moments longer before dwindling away to be replaced by chagrin. "It was only a suggestion," Birgitte muttered weakly.

 

Elayne was holding the Power throughout the whole thing, something she hasn't done when arguing with Birgitte lately since the her pregnancy makes it difficult. Could it be that she was using Compulsion unconsciously? It isn't obvious, I don't know what to think, but when I read it the thought certainly popped up in my mind.

[Suttree]

I just read this in KoD:

 

"No." Elayne sighed, fighting not to feel outraged as well. [...] "I will not begin by breaking the law." The bond carried something... stubborn. She fixed Birgitte with a steady look. "Neither will you. Do you understand me, Birgitte Trahelion? Neither will you."

 

To her surprise, the stubbornness lasted only moments longer before dwindling away to be replaced by chagrin. "It was only a suggestion," Birgitte muttered weakly.

 

Elayne was holding the Power throughout the whole thing, something she hasn't done when arguing with Birgitte lately since the her pregnancy makes it difficult. Could it be that she was using Compulsion unconsciously? It isn't obvious, I don't know what to think, but when I read it the thought certainly popped up in my mind.

 

No because an AS needs to use and place the spirit weave for compulsion to work with the bond. It could be a reaction to their emotions mirroring however.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Hmm, either Elayne has been developing a dominant even queenly personality to which other people respond to, particularly when she's right, or she's unconsciously using compulsion. Tough call, but I've got to go with the compulsion since the alternative is just too outlandish.

[Alric]

Is the Warder Compulsion different from the kind of Compulsion that wilders tend to develop? I seem to remember that that one was sometimes done unconsciously.

[thisguy]

I think Sutt is right. I do not think it's Compulsion through the Warder bond. I think the two women have the emotional connection through the bond, I think they're actually good friends and truly have each other's backs, and I think that Birgitte is a reasonable person. She sees she's wrong and quickly changes her ways. She's a true Warder, in that regard. I think it comes off weird because, after rereading almost 7 books, the characters in this story are all stubborn and rarely change their minds when proven wrong easily. She's one of the most mature characters in the book. I'd love her as a girlfriend. :D

[Orderofolde]

A channeler is able to compel its non-channeling warder to obey; that seems to come with the warder bond.

The warder compelling is not compulsion, it is rarely used and not many details are available aside from the logical reasoning that it exists from the days when warders were bonded against their will and not given a choice to serve. They can defy their Aes Sedai, but the bond allows the Aes Sedai to use it to make the warder comply with what they wish. We have seen Moiraine threaten Lan with it because she knows of events she must do alone to set everything into place for future things to occur, and he doesn't want to let her go off alone into dangerous situations. I think that a part of the compelling a warder endures is if his Aes Sedai dies, they go into Berserker mode at the sacrifice of their own life, with only some few remarkable successes of saving a warder whose Aes Sedai has been killed. The warder bond is one of the things that evolved in the breaking, after the Age of Legends and is beyond the knowledge of the forsaken.

[Orderofolde]

I hasten to add that in regard to Birgitte and Elayne, Birgitte will comply and has stated to Elayne's question of why she seems to pick and choose that she won't argue with things that make sense. Usually Elayne with her pregnancy is known for her tempers and being unreasonable. Everyone hears the horror stories of women and their moods when pregnant. Sending hubby to Dairy Queen 5 minutes before they are closing for ice cream or being pissed at him for days if he doesn't move mountains to satisfy her craving which leaves the guy beating on the door begging for a quick cone for his pregnant wife out of sheer desperation. It is also a dynamic of their friendship. Elayne doesn't come across as explaining herself or being too patient for Birgitte's taste.

[Suttree]

Is the Warder Compulsion different from the kind of Compulsion that wilders tend to develop? I seem to remember that that one was sometimes done unconsciously.

 

Yes it is. In order for an AS to compel her warder through the bond she has to consciously place a weave of spirit.

[Luckers]

This could be another effect of the female-female bond--a step beyond the mirroring of emotion to causing an emotional reaction in the other person. Or Birgitte may have simply realised that she was acting shamefully. She has a pretty strong sense of honour, after all.

[mb]

Not sure about the weave needing to be done consciously.

Any weave that could be done consciously I imagine has also the potential of being done unconsciously.

Also, any weave that could be taught by another I imagine can also be figured out on own.

 

Unless either author told differently.

[yoniy0]

The reason wilders sometimes use a weak form of Compulsion unconsciously is that they aren't always aware of being wilders to begin with. You can't weave something without realize it, once you're trained (although on the rare occasion that you have somebody else's memories seeping through, you can weave something even though you don't know where the knowledge comes from).