two river rebellion

[Mr Ares]

I am talking about freedom of TR and TR alone

Freedom from what?

 

Her pride is wasted against TR stubbornness.

TR stubbornnes is wasted against her pride.

 

No one in TR(including Perrin) consider themselves Andor's subjects and I'd say they are right because Andoran queens have failed in their duty to protect them multiple times.

Duty goes both ways. They failed in their duties as subjects as well.

 

All Perrin did was keep his neighbuors and friends from getting slaughtered.

That's how it started. It's gone a lot further now.

 

You mean, if Elayne refuses to be reasonable, it will be war.

No. I don't.

[Manjunathan]

Freedom from what?

Freedom from a throne which has failed in its duty to them.

 

Her pride is wasted against TR stubbornness.

TR stubbornnes is wasted against her pride.

Then you are underestimating TR stubbornness.

 

No one in TR(including Perrin) consider themselves Andor's subjects and I'd say they are right because Andoran queens have failed in their duty to protect them multiple times.

Duty goes both ways. They failed in their duties as subjects as well.

How?By not paying taxes?! It is not their fault that that the Queens'tax collector failed to turn up for a few generations.

How can you expect them to be loyal to a throne which has done nothing to improve their living conditions, or to remind them of it's existence?

 

All Perrin did was keep his neighbuors and friends from getting slaughtered.

That's how it started. It's gone a lot further now.

Yes it has gone a lot further now. I forgot to mention that he(and his wife) took in many refugees, gave them new homes, prevented them from dying of hunger, dug wells and irrigation canals so that TR remain unaffected by the drought, built walls to protect them from future raids besides other things.Due to these things TR is a much more prosperous place now.

The TR ppl were proven right in putting their faith in him.

 

You mean, if Elayne refuses to be reasonable, it will be war.

No. I don't.

Well... it was too much to hope for anyway.

 

I still say it is Elayne who is being unreasonable. 

[benr]

The rest of Andor still has benefited from the ores in the Mountains of Mist and tabac from the TR.  They not only haven't collected taxes, but they failed miserably in the TR's time of greatest need.  Perrin et. al. pulled their bacon off of the fire.  Elayne has much bigger fish to fry (too many food metaphors here) and won't be able to pay any attention to them for many years.

[Mr Ares]

Freedom from a throne which has failed in its duty to them.

How so?

 

Then you are underestimating TR stubbornness.

You are underestimating her pride. Also, let us not forget that their stubbornness extended to them kneeling to a Lord. Now all it takes is for Perrin to kneel. The decision is out of their hands.

 

How? By not paying taxes?

That's part of it, yes. If they don't give, how can they expect something in return.

 

Yes it has gone a lot further now. I forgot to mention that he(and his wife) took in many refugees, gave them new homes, prevented them from dying of hunger, dug wells and irrigation canals so that TR remain unaffected by the drought, built walls to protect them from future raids besides other things.Due to these things TR is a much more prosperous place now.

And they knlet to a lord. That is important.

 

I still say it is Elayne who is being unreasonable.

Elayne is Queen. Expecting her lords to acknowledge that is not too much to ask.

 

They not only haven't collected taxes, but they failed miserably in the TR's time of greatest need.

By they, you mean Rahvin.

Elayne has much bigger fish to fry (too many food metaphors here) and won't be able to pay any attention to them for many years.

She doesn't. She does not have so many other problems she will not be able to take any time to address this rather pressing issue.

[Manjunathan]

Freedom from a throne which has failed in its duty to them.

How so?

By not protecting them.

 

Then you are underestimating TR stubbornness.

You are underestimating her pride. Also, let us not forget that their stubbornness extended to them kneeling to a Lord. Now all it takes is for Perrin to kneel.

Which he won't do.

 

 

How? By not paying taxes?

That's part of it, yes. If they don't give, how can they expect something in return.

I'll say it again since you missed it the first time.

IT IS NOT THE FAULT OF TWO RIVERS PEOPLE THAT THE QUEENS TAX COLLECTOR FAILED TO TURN UP. 

 

Yes it has gone a lot further now. I forgot to mention that he(and his wife) took in many refugees, gave them new homes, prevented them from dying of hunger, dug wells and irrigation canals so that TR remain unaffected by the drought, built walls to protect them from future raids besides other things.Due to these things TR is a much more prosperous place now.

And they knlet to a lord. That is important.

What is important is that is that they knelt before someone who has done something for their well being.

 

Elayne is Queen. Expecting her lords to acknowledge that is not too much to ask.

Perrin is not her lord.

 

 

They not only haven't collected taxes, but they failed miserably in the TR's time of greatest need.

By they, you mean Rahvin.

Try telling that to someone who lost their family to trollocs. And what about winternight? Rahvin was not free then.

 

Elayne has much bigger fish to fry (too many food metaphors here) and won't be able to pay any attention to them for many years.

She doesn't. She does not have so many other problems she will not be able to take any time to address this rather pressing issue.

She don't need to take any time to address this issue since TR is not her business anymore.

[DemandredFO]

do we know what the broken crown of Saldea looks like.  Just asking because Rand broke a crown in Cairhein and Perrin was there.  I agree it's probably the Saldean crown that min saw but I believe the other possibility should be considered.

[wavemistresstrammell]

If you're talking about when he came back and Coulavere was queen that was the crown of cairhien... can't remeber what it's called, does someone else? If you're talking about a different crown I have no idea.

[mb]

It seems to me that Elayne is ready (and has time enough) to handle the Two Rivers situation since she will be crowned soon.  Dealing with the situation to me is something that Elayne will need to do; and dealing with it seems to be something she wants (or at least wanted) to do.  And Elayne probably has more leadership skills than Perrin since she has spent nearly her whole life in becoming a leader; and Perrin just several months, maybe a year.  Elayne probably is also ready to do whatever it takes for Two Rivers to remain as part of Andor.

 

Perrin would likely be busy taking Masema to Rand.  And probably around that time would be the second time for Perrin to rescue Rand.  When his business with Rand is over, Perrin might likely be assigned another task.

 

Also, Perrin & Elayne probably would not want trouble with each other since they both highly esteem Rand.  Rand probably would not want them fighting either; and might likely side with Elayne if they do since he wanted all of Andor to be hers.  Not siding with Elayne in this situation would contradict his earlier opinion.

And since Perrin knows of Rand's view of Andor, Perrin would probably willingly give Elayne control of Two Rivers.  And once Perrin realizes that Saldaea will be his, he would probably feel that each of the lands would be too much for him to handle and probably abdicate his Two Rivers lordship when he gains Saldaea's crown but after Two Rivers is ready for him to leave.

 

[Manjunathan]

It seems to me that Elayne is ready (and has time enough) to handle the Two Rivers situation since she will be crowned soon.  Dealing with the situation to me is something that Elayne will need to do; and dealing with it seems to be something she wants (or at least wanted) to do.

It is not what Elayne wants. It is what TR people wants that matters more.

 

 

  And Elayne probably has more leadership skills than Perrin since she has spent nearly her whole life in becoming a leader; and Perrin just several months, maybe a year.

Queens before Elayne also had a lifetime training behind them. They failed to do any good to TR ppl. Why should they believe Elayne to be any different?

 

  Elayne probably is also ready to do whatever it takes for Two Rivers to remain as part of Andor.Perrin would likely be busy taking Masema to Rand.  And probably around that time would be the second time for Perrin to rescue Rand.  When his business with Rand is over, Perrin might likely be assigned another task.

I believe Elayne will also be busy, claiming the sun throne, and after that preparing both the nations for TG. There is also Min's viewing about Elayne and a white-hot iron. I think there is more trouble coming Elayne's way.

 

Also, Perrin & Elayne probably would not want trouble with each other since they both highly esteem Rand.  Rand probably would not want them fighting either; and might likely side with Elayne if they do since he wanted all of Andor to be hers.  Not siding with Elayne in this situation would contradict his earlier opinion.

And since Perrin knows of Rand's view of Andor, Perrin would probably willingly give Elayne control of Two Rivers.

Perrin will stand up for anything he thinks is right. Even if it is against Rand, as he has already proven. 

 

 

And once Perrin realizes that Saldaea will be his, he would probably feel that each of the lands would be too much for him to handle and probably abdicate his Two Rivers lordship when he gains Saldaea's crown but after Two Rivers is ready for him to leave.

Probably. But unlikely. He can handle both lands quite well.

Anyway TR people won't like Andor throne cozying up to them after all their troubles are over.

 

[Mr Ares]

Freedom from a throne which has failed in its duty to them.

How so?

By not protecting them.

But what freedom do they get?

 

Then you are underestimating TR stubbornness.

You are underestimating her pride. Also, let us not forget that their stubbornness extended to them kneeling to a Lord. Now all it takes is for Perrin to kneel.

Which he won't do.

Then his people will die. All those deaths on his conscience.

 

I'll say it again since you missed it the first time.

I saw it, it's just not relevant. Duty goes both ways. They didn't give anything, so how can they expect to get anything?

 

What is important is that is that they knelt before someone who has done something for their well being.

They still knelt. TR stubbornness didn't stop them kneeling.

 

Elayne is Queen. Expecting her lords to acknowledge that is not too much to ask.

Perrin is not her lord.

He lays claim to Andoran land. He is either a rebel, an invader, or hers.

 

They not only haven't collected taxes, but they failed miserably in the TR's time of greatest need.

By they, you mean Rahvin.

Try telling that to someone who lost their family to trollocs. And what about winternight? Rahvin was not free then.

Realistically, there's no possible way they could have defended Emond's Field on Winternight. One night, no warning. They would have needed a garrison in EF, which there was absolutely no reason to do. Even if the people of EF were loyal Andorans, tax-paying citizens, there was still no reason why a garrison should be within spitting distance of them, so this can't reasonably be laid at their feet. Or if it is, why not criticise the TR folk for not having defences, walls, sentries? There was no reason. It was a surprise attack. You can no more blame the Queen's Guard for failing them then that you can blame the TR folk for failing themselves. On the other hand, Fain's Whitecloaks and Slayer's Trollocs were prolonged problems, so there was an opportunity to respond.

 

She don't need to take any time to address this issue since TR is not her business anymore.

It's her country. Tha makes it her business.

 

Queens before Elayne also had a lifetime training behind them. They failed to do any good to TR ppl. Why should they believe Elayne to be any different?

Elayne will have something no previous Andoran Queen will have had - a standing army. Also, Travelling. She has her own academy, so she probably intends to make use of the inventions of the modern world (such as the steam wagon), and has also considered a Royal Post. Why should Elayne be any different? Well, why should people expect Queen Victoria to be different to Willaim the Conqueror?

 

Anyway TR people won't like Andor throne cozying up to them after all their troubles are over.

Who says all their troubles are over?

[Manjunathan]

But what freedom do they get?

They don't have to kneel before a woman they don't know and done no service to them.

 

 

Then his people will die. All those deaths on his conscience.

It is Elayne who will decide whether to go to war or not. The deaths will be on her conscience.

If Perrin doesn't kneel  then it is according to the wishes of his people.

 

 

I'll say it again since you missed it the first time.

I saw it, it's just not relevant. Duty goes both ways. They didn't give anything, so how can they expect to get anything?

How is it not relevant?And please do enlighten me how they were supposed to pay their taxes without the proper authority  turning up?

 

 

Here is a quote for you from tEoTW

Chapter40 The Web Tightens:

"My child, you should pay more heed to those

books. The Two Rivers has not seen a tax collector in six generations, nor the Queen's Guards in seven.

Note that the protection in the form of Queens guards disappeared before the taxes.

And for your info. TR done more to the world and Andor than it has got in return by far.

 

 

What is important is that is that they knelt before someone who has done something for their well being.

They still knelt. TR stubbornness didn't stop them kneeling.

Their stubbornness didn't stop them from kneeling before a man who helped them survive in their hour of greatest need. Had Elayne helped them they would have knelt to her. She didn't. So they won't kneel.

 

 

Elayne is Queen. Expecting her lords to acknowledge that is not too much to ask.

Perrin is not her lord.

He lays claim to Andoran land. He is either a rebel, an invader, or hers.

He lays claim to a land which Elayne unjustifiably claims to be Andoran. He is none of the three you mentioned. He is TR lord chosen by TR people(A pleasant change, I say).  

 

They not only haven't collected taxes, but they failed miserably in the TR's time of greatest need.

By they, you mean Rahvin.

Try telling that to someone who lost their family to trollocs. And what about winternight? Rahvin was not free then.

Realistically, there's no possible way they could have defended Emond's Field on Winternight. One night, no warning. They would have needed a garrison in EF, which there was absolutely no reason to do. Even if the people of EF were loyal Andorans, tax-paying citizens, there was still no reason why a garrison should be within spitting distance of them, so this can't reasonably be laid at their feet. Or if it is, why not criticise the TR folk for not having defences, walls, sentries? There was no reason. It was a surprise attack. You can no more blame the Queen's Guard for failing them then that you can blame the TR folk for failing themselves. On the other hand, Fain's Whitecloaks and Slayer's Trollocs were prolonged problems, so there was an opportunity to respond.

If Queens guards had been present in Winternight, they would have sent a message to Caemlyn immediately. That in turn would have drawn every eyes  to TR. And TR would have had more that adequate protection when whitecloaks came and trollocs returned.  

 

She don't need to take any time to address this issue since TR is not her business anymore.

It's her country. Tha makes it her business.

TR is not part of her country anymore.

 

Queens before Elayne also had a lifetime training behind them. They failed to do any good to TR ppl. Why should they believe Elayne to be any different?

Elayne will have something no previous Andoran Queen will have had - a standing army. Also, Travelling. She has her own academy, so she probably intends to make use of the inventions of the modern world (such as the steam wagon), and has also considered a Royal Post. Why should Elayne be any different?

TR common folk don't know Elayne. So they will judge her by her predecessors.

She has done nothing to improve their opinion of Andoran throne.

 

Well, why should people expect Queen Victoria to be different to Willaim the Conqueror?

Because they ruled under a different system of governance. This is not so in Elayne's case.

 

 

Anyway TR people won't like Andor throne cozying up to them after all their troubles are over.

Who says all their troubles are over?

You mean the Last Battle? That trouble belongs to the whole world.

On the other hand whitecloaks  and trollocs in tSR were specific to TR alone.  

[mb]

I believe Elayne will also be busy, claiming the sun throne, and after that preparing both the nations for TG. There is also Min's viewing about Elayne and a white-hot iron. I think there is more trouble coming Elayne's way.

I doubt Elayne would set aside a potential rebellion.  Claiming Cairhien would probably come after the situation is settled.  And getting Cairhien would probably be done quickly since most of Cairhien's nobles seem to already support Elayne.

Part of the preparation for Tarmon Gaidon would likely include settling the situation.  Elayne might not be able to get them ready for Tarmon Gaidon if she does not deal with their situation first.

 

Perrin will stand up for anything he thinks is right. Even if it is against Rand, as he has already proven.

Perrin seemed to support the decision when he told Morgase (though he did not know she was Morgase) about it.

 

And once Perrin realizes that Saldaea will be his, he would probably feel that each of the lands would be too much for him to handle and probably abdicate his Two Rivers lordship when he gains Saldaea's crown but after Two Rivers is ready for him to leave.

Probably. But unlikely. He can handle both lands quite well.

So far he has just Ghealdan & Two Rivers.  The combined size is much smaller than Saldaea.  Also, the two are relatively close to each other; the distance between Saldaea and the closest of the two is much bigger.  And Perrin might not always have channelers that could do Gateways; though if he does, he understands that channeling can become tiring.

 

Anyway TR people won't like Andor throne cozying up to them after all their troubles are over.

Tarmon Gaidon might likely bring trouble to them again.

And with their channelers, there would be potential problems with the Seanchan.

 

[Manjunathan]

I believe Elayne will also be busy, claiming the sun throne, and after that preparing both the nations for TG. There is also Min's viewing about Elayne and a white-hot iron. I think there is more trouble coming Elayne's way.

I doubt Elayne would set aside a potential rebellion.  Claiming Cairhien would probably come after the situation is settled.  And getting Cairhien would probably be done quickly since most of Cairhien's nobles seem to already support Elayne.

Part of the preparation for Tarmon Gaidon would likely include settling the situation.  Elayne might not be able to get them ready for Tarmon Gaidon if she does not deal with their situation first.

Both Perrin and Elayne will avoid a confrontation among the forces of light before TG. Both know shadow is the bigger enemy. TR is presently among the more settled places in Randland, currently. It is ready for TG.

 

 

Perrin will stand up for anything he thinks is right. Even if it is against Rand, as he has already proven.

Perrin seemed to support the decision when he told Morgase (though he did not know she was Morgase) about it.

Perrin seemed to support Elayne to take the throne. Just that. He never said TR is part of Andor.

 

 

And once Perrin realizes that Saldaea will be his, he would probably feel that each of the lands would be too much for him to handle and probably abdicate his Two Rivers lordship when he gains Saldaea's crown but after Two Rivers is ready for him to leave.

Probably. But unlikely. He can handle both lands quite well.

So far he has just Ghealdan & Two Rivers.  The combined size is much smaller than Saldaea.  Also, the two are relatively close to each other; the distance between Saldaea and the closest of the two is much bigger.  And Perrin might not always have channelers that could do Gateways; though if he does, he understands that channeling can become tiring.

He doesn't need to shuttle b/w Saldaea and TR very often. He will have able administrators to help him.

 

Anyway TR people won't like Andor throne cozying up to them after all their troubles are over.

Tarmon Gaidon might likely bring trouble to them again.

And with their channelers, there would be potential problems with the Seanchan.

As I said before in reply to Mr Ares in TG they will have whole world to fight alongside them. Nothing says Dark One will concentrate on TR.They will not need any help from Elayne.

 

As for Seanchan Rand's meeting with Tuon should settle for them.

 

[Phariah]

i don't think the seanchan would be a problem for the TR seeing as how Perrin has made a deal w/ Tylee Khirgan to protect em. as a matter of fact the Seanchan could be an ally for the TR. Perrin has dealt w/ them in good faith before and would possibly be the first to trade with them after TG.(kaf for TR tabac :P) Not to mention Mat is the Prince of the Ravens. i'm sure he would help Perrin snub Elayne and rub her nose in it  ;D  and even if Seanchan don't help much Mat has a nice private army  ;)  some well placed squads of Dragons would be a good defense :D

[mb]

Both Perrin and Elayne will avoid a confrontation among the forces of light before TG. Both know shadow is the bigger enemy. TR is presently among the more settled places in Randland, currently. It is ready for TG.

Perrin seemed to support Elayne to take the throne. Just that. He never said TR is part of Andor.

Even though he has not said it, he has realized it for a long time.  He might not have sent Faile to seek Morgase if he did not recognize Two Rivers as part of Andor.

And Two Rivers has not legally seceded from Andor.  Only the ruler I take could do that.

Two Rivers is ready for Tarmon Gaidon in terms of skills and weapons; yet in terms of peace with other places, they are not.  Not having the situation settled before Tarmon Gaidon could risk some kind of victory for the Shadow.

 

As I said before in reply to Mr Ares in TG they will have whole world to fight alongside them. Nothing says Dark One will concentrate on TR.They will not need any help from Elayne.

They will need to be in peace with her.  Like I told earlier in this post, leaving this situation unresolved could risk some kind of victory for the Shadow; even if all of the Shadow's forces are destroyed.

 

As for Seanchan Rand's meeting with Tuon should settle for them.

Rand told that the truce would be effective up through Tarmon Gaidon.  They might decide to conquer the lands after Tarmon Gaidon.

 

[Charlz Guybon]

 

Even though he has not said it, he has realized it for a long time.  He might not have sent Faile to seek Morgase if he did not recognize Two Rivers as part of Andor.

 

 

Didn't Faile explicitly refer to Morgase making Perrin a Lord for bringing the Two Rivers back under her control?

[Manjunathan]

Both Perrin and Elayne will avoid a confrontation among the forces of light before TG. Both know shadow is the bigger enemy. TR is presently among the more settled places in Randland, currently. It is ready for TG.

Perrin seemed to support Elayne to take the throne. Just that. He never said TR is part of Andor.

Even though he has not said it, he has realized it for a long time.  He might not have sent Faile to seek Morgase if he did not recognize Two Rivers as part of Andor.

And Two Rivers has not legally seceded from Andor.  Only the ruler I take could do that.

Two Rivers is ready for Tarmon Gaidon in terms of skills and weapons; yet in terms of peace with other places, they are not.  Not having the situation settled before Tarmon Gaidon could risk some kind of victory for the Shadow.

He sent Faile as much to get her away as for anything else. He sent for Morgase in Caemlyn because that was the closest place from where he believed he would get help, where Faile could reach safely.

Andor throne has abandoned TR for ravens 6-7 generation ago. That is as much of legal secession any place has got in Randland(except maybe in battle). For eg. when last king of Hardan died Cairhien claimed its land. But later couldnot afford to maintain their control over it, so abandoned it(TGH Chapter 10: The Hunt Begins). Similar is the case of TR.

 

If Rand and Seanchan can put aside their differences for TG, TR and Caemlyn definitely can. And Nicola's foretelling in LoC implies that battles are not done with 'The Last Battle'. I don't see how it becomes a victory for the shadow.

 

As for Seanchan Rand's meeting with Tuon should settle for them.

Rand told that the truce would be effective up through Tarmon Gaidon.  They might decide to conquer the lands after Tarmon Gaidon.

If Tuon decide to attack even she has no reason to concentrate on TR.Also with a TR man as her husband it is unlikely she will attack TR. And there is also Perrins' help to Gen. Tylee to consider as Phariah said.

 

 

 

[Manjunathan]

Even though he has not said it, he has realized it for a long time.  He might not have sent Faile to seek Morgase if he did not recognize Two Rivers as part of Andor.

Didn't Faile explicitly refer to Morgase making Perrin a Lord for bringing the Two Rivers back under her control?

That was Faile. But Perrin and every single TR man considers himself free.

As he said to Maighdin(Morgase) in PoD 'TR people had to fend off for themselves. And they did'

[mb]

He sent Faile as much to get her away as for anything else. He sent for Morgase in Caemlyn because that was the closest place from where he believed he would get help, where Faile could reach safely.

Andor throne has abandoned TR for ravens 6-7 generation ago. That is as much of legal secession any place has got in Randland(except maybe in battle). For eg. when last king of Hardan died Cairhien claimed its land. But later couldnot afford to maintain their control over it, so abandoned it(TGH Chapter 10: The Hunt Begins). Similar is the case of TR.

The title Perrin accepted could imply that he recognizes Two Rivers as part of Andor.  'Lord' when applied to mortals is generally considered less than royalty.  If he saw Two Rivers as separate from Andor, he might have accepted title 'King of Two Rivers' or 'Emperor of Two Rivers'; instead he accepts 'Lord of Two Rivers'.

The reason for Caemlyn I take was that he felt that the royal court aught to know.  One of the neighboring villages would have been as good a place for both safety and help; or even a city.

For it to be a legal secession, the ruler has to say that the area is no longer part of the nation.  No Andor Queen I take has done that with Two Rivers.

 

If Rand and Seanchan can put aside their differences for TG, TR and Caemlyn definitely can. And Nicola's foretelling in LoC implies that battles are not done with 'The Last Battle'. I don't see how it becomes a victory for the shadow.

Slight chance of winning against the Shadow if there are unresolved issues with allies.

The truce Rand is planning seems to be the start of putting aside of differences.  Unlikely for Two Rivers & Elayne to put aside differences if they do not discuss the situation first.

 

Also; the longer Elayne delays dealing with Two Rivers, the more problems there might be for both her and Two Rivers.

 

[Manjunathan]

He sent Faile as much to get her away as for anything else. He sent for Morgase in Caemlyn because that was the closest place from where he believed he would get help, where Faile could reach safely.

Andor throne has abandoned TR for ravens 6-7 generation ago. That is as much of legal secession any place has got in Randland(except maybe in battle). For eg. when last king of Hardan died Cairhien claimed its land. But later couldnot afford to maintain their control over it, so abandoned it(TGH Chapter 10: The Hunt Begins). Similar is the case of TR.

The title Perrin accepted could imply that he recognizes Two Rivers as part of Andor.  'Lord' when applied to mortals is generally considered less than royalty.  If he saw Two Rivers as separate from Andor, he might have accepted title 'King of Two Rivers' or 'Emperor of Two Rivers'; instead he accepts 'Lord of Two Rivers'.

Here is a quote from PoD

Chapter 8: A Simple Country Woman

"We don't know much about lawful rulers in the Two Rivers, Mistress Maighdin," he growled. He wasgoing to skin whoever had put them up this time. If stories about rebellion had spread this far. . . . He faced toomany complications already without adding more. "I suppose Morgase was a good queen, but we had to fendfor ourselves, and we did."

This is the latest  we get from Perrin in regards to Andors' claim of TR. Even when he is uncertain about his position as the Lord of TR he is adamant in maintaining that TR is not under the rule of Andoran Queens, just like other TR folk. That is what matters, not his title as Lord.

 

The reason for Caemlyn I take was that he felt that the royal court aught to know.  One of the neighboring villages would have been as good a place for both safety and help; or even a city.

The neighboring TR villages were under attack to keep them from coming to Emonds Fields' aid(from Perrin's observations in Wolf Dream). Caemlyn was the nearest place where he had any hope of getting help(nearest place with enough soldiers).

 

For it to be a legal secession, the ruler has to say that the area is no longer part of the nation.  No Andor Queen I take has done that with Two Rivers.

Their actions speak better than words. Andor queens absolutely abandoned TR a long time ago.   

 

If Rand and Seanchan can put aside their differences for TG, TR and Caemlyn definitely can. And Nicola's foretelling in LoC implies that battles are not done with 'The Last Battle'. I don't see how it becomes a victory for the shadow.

Slight chance of winning against the Shadow if there are unresolved issues with allies.

The truce Rand is planning seems to be the start of putting aside of differences.  Unlikely for Two Rivers & Elayne to put aside differences if they do not discuss the situation first.

Are the Seanchan going to free all the Damane bfore TG?No.

Rand and the AS will have to live with it for the time being.

Similarly there is a lot of rivalry b/w Tairens and Illianers which is unlikely to be solved before TG.

To solve all such problems before TG is impossible. If the forces of light are to have any chance of winning in TG the allies will have to forget their differences for the time being and work together to achieve their common goal. Elayne knows this, so does Perrin.

 

Also; the longer Elayne delays dealing with Two Rivers, the more problems there might be for both her and Two Rivers.

 

However 'big' their problems with each other might become, DO and TG will are much, much bigger.   

[Mr Ares]

But what freedom do they get?

They don't have to kneel before a woman they don't know and done no service to them.

So none.

 

Then his people will die. All those deaths on his conscience.

It is Elayne who will decide whether to go to war or not. The deaths will be on her conscience. If Perrin doesn't kneel then it is according to the wishes of his people.

It takes two to tango. And it is more likely to be his friends, the people he grew up with than those close to Elayne who suffer.

 

How is it not relevant?

How is it relevant?

And please do enlighten me how they were supposed to pay their taxes without the proper authority  turning up?

If the mountain will not go to Muhammed...

 

TR done more to the world and Andor than it has got in return by far.

Such as?

 

Their stubbornness didn't stop them from kneeling before a man who helped them survive in their hour of greatest need. Had Elayne helped them they would have knelt to her. She didn't. So they won't kneel.

They still knelt. So the decision is out of their hands. It is Perrin who must kneel now.

 

He lays claim to a land which Elayne unjustifiably claims to be Andoran.

She is perfectly justified.  

 

If Queens guards had been present in Winternight

Which they had no reason to be. At all. Andor cannot have garrisons in every village, it's counter-productive.

And TR would have had more that adequate protection when whitecloaks came and trollocs returned.

How so? They come, they see that whatever the Shadow wanted is gone, so they have no reason to stay. So, when Fain and Slayer make their presences felt, they have no reason to be there. And Rahvin would only send soldiers there to help Slayer.

 

TR is not part of her country anymore.

Yes, it is.

 

TR common folk don't know Elayne. So they will judge her by her predecessors.

They don't know them either.

 

Because they ruled under a different system of governance. This is not so in Elayne's case.

It is exactly so.

 

You mean the Last Battle?

Among other things. The TR is not yet on easy street. And some of the new arrivals might rather Perrin bent knee than face further conflict.

 

Both Perrin and Elayne will avoid a confrontation among the forces of light before TG.

Will they really?

 

i don't think the seanchan would be a problem for the TR seeing as how Perrin has made a deal w/ Tylee Khirgan to protect em. as a matter of fact the Seanchan could be an ally for the TR.

No. The Seanchan have no reason to ally with the TR. They want to conquer all of Andor, TR included. They cam eto an agreement in hte short term, to deal with the Shaido.

possibly be the first to trade with them after TG.

People are already trading with them.

i'm sure he would help Perrin snub Elayne and rub her nose in it

He has more important things to do than annoy Elayne, and provoke a war against the White Tower. After all, if we're going to talk in terms of allies, why wouldn't the AS side with one of their own? And maybe Logain, if he becomes M'Hael, won't much care for Ghealdan being occupied by Perrin and want his homeland restored to its former sovereign status... See, I can be ridiculous too.

 

But later couldnot afford to maintain their control over it, so abandoned it(TGH Chapter 10: The Hunt Begins). Similar is the case of TR.

Yet Andor still maintains that this land is part of the TR. Cairhien abandoned its claim, Andor didn't.

 

However 'big' their problems with each other might become, DO and TG will are much, much bigger.

That doesn't stop them addressing this one before it's too late.

[Durinax]

Andor can claim land belongs to them but unless they actually do something to incorporate it into the nation then it is just a freestanding land that no one owns. The TR are infact their own country, especially since there is no Andoran influence, guidance, or any such thing. Since they stopped sending tax collectors and queens guard, or even establishing the lands under a lords tutelage then they have forfeited the rights to the land without a fight. Even a queens visit within the last how many years would have given them claim but without anythign to even validate their claims then they are unable to make a legitimate claim

 

IF a war was to break out Perrin had a good chance of winning pre travelling but unfortunately travelling makes all defences obsolete.

[pxnsolid]

IF a war was to break out Perrin had a good chance of winning pre travelling but unfortunately travelling makes all defences obsolete.

 

Not so. Elayne has more channlers yes, but Perrin has Aes Sedai, Asha'man ( which Elayne does not) and Wise Ones. There are methods to interfere with gateways, its not so cut and dried as open a gateway and poor out enough soldiers to smoother him. Currently no one knows how to do so, but they will figure it out. 

[mb]

Here is a quote from PoD

Chapter 8: A Simple Country Woman

"We don't know much about lawful rulers in the Two Rivers, Mistress Maighdin," he growled. He wasgoing to skin whoever had put them up this time. If stories about rebellion had spread this far. . . . He faced toomany complications already without adding more. "I suppose Morgase was a good queen, but we had to fendfor ourselves, and we did."

This is the latest  we get from Perrin in regards to Andors' claim of TR. Even when he is uncertain about his position as the Lord of TR he is adamant in maintaining that TR is not under the rule of Andoran Queens, just like other TR folk. That is what matters, not his title as Lord.

I do not see Perrin as adamant about Two Rivers not being under rule of Andor Queens in that.  To me Perrin is telling that Two Rivers is not used to their rule; nothing more.

 

The reason for Caemlyn I take was that he felt that the royal court aught to know.  One of the neighboring villages would have been as good a place for both safety and help; or even a city.

The neighboring TR villages were under attack to keep them from coming to Emonds Fields' aid(from Perrin's observations in Wolf Dream). Caemlyn was the nearest place where he had any hope of getting help(nearest place with enough soldiers).

A number of closer places might have had enough soldiers.

Asking for Andor's soldiers & asking Andor's ruler, those also could imply that Perrin acknowledged that Two Rivers was part of Andor.  Perhaps Perrin felt that getting rid of the trollocs were part of their duty; or perhaps he wished them to deal with the Whitecloaks.

 

For it to be a legal secession, the ruler has to say that the area is no longer part of the nation.  No Andor Queen I take has done that with Two Rivers.

Their actions speak better than words. Andor queens absolutely abandoned TR a long time ago.

Actions do not make something legally binding; only a ruler's proclamation on the issue does.

Maybe the trip was becoming unsafe and/or expensive.

 

To solve all such problems before TG is impossible.

However 'big' their problems with each other might become, DO and TG will are much, much bigger.

There would be enough time to solve this issue.

And it is generally best to deal with problems when they are small.

 

Since Slayer came to Two Rivers, the Dark One was probably involved in the situation.

One or more Forsaken and/or Darkfriend channelers might be sent next; or might have already been sent.

Elayne & her channelers would be the best candidate to deal with that

[Mr Ares]

Andor can claim land belongs to them but unless they actually do something to incorporate it into the nation then it is just a freestanding land that no one owns.

If I own some land that I do nothing with, it's still my land. The TR folk are just squatters. Does Andor recognise the concept of squatters' rights?

 

Elayne has more channlers yes, but Perrin has Aes Sedai, Asha'man (which Elayne does not) and Wise Ones.

Assuming any of those are willing to fight for him and the TR. Neither the Wise Ones nor the AS seem likely to do that. Even the Asha'man are not guaranteed. On the other hand, Elayne has at least one channeler - herself.