Wtf is up with the novices/accepted?

[Mr Ares]

I wouldn’t say I’ve never had to strive for anything. I put a lot of time and energy into my chosen career path; you couldn’t succeed unless you were willing to put everything into it. Admittedly aspiring to be an artist is not fraught with danger or anything, but it’s not easy.

So, how much did you want to be an artist? What would you do to become one? If the only way involved scrubbing floors, would you still do it? As you said, no. So you obviously didn't want it that much. And bearing in mind that AS are a bit more dangerous than artists.

 

I don’t think wanting a window, or wanting to lock my door is spoilt. In the tower, Aes sedai just barge into your room like anything.

Why would you need a lock or window?

 

I’m just saying crap like that is not going to make me like the place any better.

They don't much care if you like it. But they need to make sure you are capable of staying the course.

 

I’m sorry, I don’t mean to sound rude or sarcastic, but I’m not sure I know what you’re getting at.

Your attitudes are shaped by the modern world. Had you grown up in a different society, your feelings on the matter would be different. And if you didn't have access to men, you might feel a bit more well disposed to wards women, especially in a world with different cultural norms to those of the modern western world.

 

Yeah I expect days off!

Why? And bear in mind that people have not always had as much leisure time as is common today.

 

That’s fine with me; I wouldn’t plan on any extravagant displays of the one power, although I likely wouldn’t be capable of them anyway.

By extravagant, I mena, anyone knowing. The more people who know, the less secret it is. The greater the chance someone will tell. And thus the greater the chance someone who doesn't like AS will catch up to you, or the AS themselves. The ideal number to keep a secret is one.

imagining that system implemented on young women today

What about the example Kat gave, of military training? Which is harsher. People do subject themsleves for that.

 

I do accept that my opinions have been shaped in some ways by what society I was raised in (a very liberal one) and the generation I belong to.

Then try and put yourself in the shoes of a girl from a less advanced society, a less liberal one. One more akin to that of the books. Then tell me if you think it reasonable that the Novices and Accepted put up with what they put up with.

 

It would lie with the fact that I’d be doing labour, unnecessary labour, that benefits no one, because Aes sedai said so.

It helps to build character. So it benefits you.

 

I always think of it as being akin to joining the military. You have to put up with a lot of crap that may suck, but in the end you are stronger for it (mentally and physically).

And they give you a gun, which makes it all worthwhile.

[cseresz]

I mean seriously, the stuff they put up with to become Aes sedai. It’s hard to imagine girls/young women willingly going along. Maybe back in the day, teens were more obedient or whatever, but today! I’m 18, just able to enrol, would I stick that crap out, no way. I don’t know any girls my age that would. Honestly, most of the added crap is really unnecessary in my opinion. 

 

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

 

(Have you seen The Nun's Story?)

 

 

[Arath Faringal]

The military comparison doesn't really seem to work all that well.  Yes, boot camp is a brutal affair, but it only lasts 2-3 months (depending on your branch), not up to a decade.  After basic you immediately begin useful training in the field you've chosen.  Not another decade learning a completely useless set of skills (100 weaves). 

 

If basic training lasted even a year or two, you'd be hard pressed to find many people willing to put up with it.  Having a light at the end of the tunnel is what pulls many people through.

[Negawonka]

In the military (depending on your MOS) you still have to deal with many things that as troublesome as what AS have to do when you get to your unit for the first few years or so. You also have to keep in mind that since they live longer length of time factors in differently for them. They live roughly three or four times longer, so ten years of hard training may feel like a lot to the novices and accepted but it hardly seems like a long time to someone who is over two hundred years old and only has a touch of gray. Their training is not that hard to begin with, they have to cook and clean some and if they mess up they get spanked. Really it sounds no more difficult than most military schools people send their kids to when they are six or seven.

[JenniferL]

The whole concept of a "day off" as well as breaks and vacations are products of a modern, industrial society. They don't exist with the tech level present in Randland. It's not possible. Check out the early chapters of TEotW when Rand and Tam go back to to their farm and do several hours worth of grueling physical labor on their farm, in the middle of what would like Christmas for us. Because if they don't do this work, the farm, which is their only means of survival, ceases to function. The novices are actually very lucky in that they get an occasional free day. It's not something the average peasant has the luxury of. And they get this precisely because they are performing useless labor. The Tower doesn't stop functioning if a novice goofs off during High Chasline.

 

 

[sketching sedai]

Let’s say for examples sake, that the tower did not make novices scrape around on your knees but instead, humbled you by demonstrating their superiority in more productive ways, afforded you a little privacy, a lock on your door that you could only use when getting changed, and maybe one day in every two and a half weeks off the paperwork, or as collage calls it, ‘independent study time’.

I wouldn’t think that they would all end up super obnoxious, (unbearably more so than current Aes sedai), I also think they’d be on the same page as the other sisters when it come to TGD, battling darkfriends etc. 

 

I agree that pride does not mix with getting the job done, but again, imo, this would depend on the person. Take faile and her captivity. She’s a character full of pride, and petty as hell, but from the start she was willing to undergo degrading treatment, passively, on realising to comply was to survive. Throughout the entire abduction she was willing to do whatever it took if it meant she could achieve her goal.

If and when the situation arose, I would rise or lower myself to it, the incentive would be there, hanging in the balance. Id do a lot of sh*t, if the price was high enough

“Strip, kneel, and kiss the floor. If you do, all these captives will be set free. I’d do it.

“Kneel and scrub the floor, you need to be humbled, so you can act humble or be humble if and when the need arises.” I’d rather cross that bridge when I come to it, which I would do.

 

A few times, wasting my time, yeah what the hell, But for years? It just seems like they didn’t give the idea much thought. You want to build a young women’s character in a positive direction and you come up with ’oh I know, how about she cleans some floors’. I’m sure if they all put their minds to it they could come up with something more productive. 

I would preferre, instead, to use this time to learn more of how to avoid that situation in the first place. If all that was left in a situation was to act meek and subservient, most people could and would. No training required.

Waking up to that sh*t everyday for no ‘imo’ compelling reason would piss me off. I’ve got to see valid reasons for what I’m doing, if I’m going to b expected to do it all the time.

 

if an Aes sedai could clearly tick off all parts of novice life and recite point for point, reasons I could agree with, why they were important towards my training for becoming Aes sedai, show me how each sister now puts that same lessons/labours to use in her travels, and how by doing it I’m readying myself for TGD, or other face-offs with the shadow, which I think is the most important part of being at the tower, then id hop to it. Like I’ve said, it’s not hard work that I find off-putting, its time wasting. My understanding of the tower is obviously not perfect however; if I was given my reasons, id change my view. I’m not too set in my ways.

 

After reading some of the replies though, I couldn’t help but come understand more of the reasons why people would want to do it, and why they’d stick it though to the end.

" my father died, if i knew healing i could have saved him.. i will go and  see if i can become an AS and i will join the yellow and make sure no one else suffers ", " my family was killed by DF / or trollocs i will go to the WT and see if i can become AS i will join the green and battle back the darkness "

Most of them would have a life that is only marginally easier otherwise. There's no safety net in general, remember. Disease, famine, etc.

 

I can’t really argue with this, to none-nobility and stuff, the towers going to seem appealing. When I started this post I was more like wtf, me and my mates wouldn’t want to do this sh*t, why would they, wtf is up with them. But yeah, I can see why they would.

Guess I’ve had too much liberty compared to those girls. Their mentalities are just different to what I’m accustomed to. The adults I look up to in life are impressive, they also can provide me with reasons why they expect certain things from me and are willing to admit fault and cut me some slack if some of those things are kind of unnecessary. 

We’ve witnessed that Aes sedai don’t know half of what they think they do, but how many have we seen admit fault and change for the better because of it. Without rereading, I’m saying not many.  I’ve always been one to need answers, if people don’t provide them, I’m going to start thinking there isn’t any. Or if they do and I don’t agree, and the option is available to me, I’d go a different way. Yes, if I stuck it out there’d be rewards, but I still think I’d end up being released.

[sketching sedai]

So, how much did you want to be an artist? What would you do to become one? If the only way involved scrubbing floors, would you still do it? As you said, no. So you obviously didn't want it that much.

Yes, as I said, my answer would be no. If scrubbing floors would improve my artistic ability, yes, I’d do it. If I’m just going to waste my bloody time, thanks, but no thanks. How much did I want it? Enough to want to be taken seriously. 

 

Why would you need a lock or window?

See other posts.

 

They don't much care if you like it. But they need to make sure you are capable of staying the course.

Sisters not much caring about what novices like is not a point I’ve overlooked.

 

 

Your attitudes are shaped by the modern world. Had you grown up in a different society, your feelings on the matter would be different. And if you didn't have access to men, you might feel a bit more well disposed to wards women, especially in a world with different cultural norms to those of the modern western world.

As for me becoming pillowfriends... I think I’m pretty open-minded about homosexuality. I’ve hung out with gay and bisexual girls throughout school and college and I don’t hold any bad views about it at all. Around were I live, no one really gives a crap if you’re gay, you get one or two d*ck heads but, whatever. My parents would mutter in disapproval if I was brining girls up to my room like *that*, but what could they do. If I woke up and wanted to sh*g a girl, I would. I am NOT gay, though. Not having access to guys would not make me start to find my friends sexually attractive, I think maybe the girls in the tower that do are bisexual, not Straight.

 

Why? And bear in mind that people have not always had as much leisure time as is common today.

I find when I’m doing intensive studying, I don’t really learn most of what I’m putting on paper, it goes in and back out, Most of it forgotten within minutes.  When I can study at a lower intensity with breaks, it helps me to remember the information long-term. It’s a revision technique most of my tutors have advised. Also I like to have a little time to myself. Not every other day, but now and again from the paper work would be helpful to me. yep, things are not the same, but would it be so unrealistic to assume learning techniques would be as effective. And seeing as the tower is not a farm and has novices doing make-work. I assume some time off would not be impossible to schedule.

 

What about the example Kat gave, of military training? Which is harsher. People do subject themsleves for that.

 

True. Though my objections to the army would be another matter altogether.

 

I do accept that my opinions have been shaped in some ways by what society I was raised in (a very liberal one) and the generation I belong to.

Then try and put yourself in the shoes of a girl from a less advanced society, a less liberal one. One more akin to that of the books. Then tell me if you think it reasonable that the Novices and Accepted put up with what they put up with.

See other post

 

It helps to build character. So it benefits you.

Agree to disagree.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sketching sedai]

The whole concept of a "day off" as well as breaks and vacations are products of a modern, industrial society. They don't exist with the tech level present in Randland. It's not possible. Check out the early chapters of TEotW when Rand and Tam go back to to their farm and do several hours worth of grueling physical labor on their farm, in the middle of what would like Christmas for us. Because if they don't do this work, the farm, which is their only means of survival, ceases to function. The novices are actually very lucky in that they get an occasional free day. It's not something the average peasant has the luxury of. And they get this precisely because they are performing useless labor. The Tower doesn't stop functioning if a novice goofs off during High Chasline.

 

 

I’m not going to disagree with you on your first point, and If my life was to do hard work such as this...*sighs heavily* I’d do it, *hangs head* without days off. You got clear reasons. If I’m not working, I’m not eating. The tower, they got money alright, and they also have a lot of chores that don’t need doing.   

 

 

[Braus]

I feel that you would be suprised on how a normal "teen" had it in our world about 130ish years ago or so. It wasnt exactly a "dance on roses" unless you lived in a well established family, and even if you did alot of stuff was very different compared to today.

[Mr Ares]

If basic training lasted even a year or two, you'd be hard pressed to find many people willing to put up with it. Having a light at the end of the tunnel is what pulls many people through.

The tunnel may be longer, but it is never as dark, and the light at the end is brighter.

 

Let’s say for examples sake, that the tower did not make novices scrape around on your knees but instead, humbled you by demonstrating their superiority in more productive ways, afforded you a little privacy, a lock on your door that you could only use when getting changed, and maybe one day in every two and a half weeks off the paperwork, or as collage calls it, ‘independent study time’.

I wouldn’t think that they would all end up super obnoxious, (unbearably more so than current Aes sedai), I also think they’d be on the same page as the other sisters when it come to TGD, battling darkfriends etc.

You think that by coddling the girls, giving them an easy ride, while they try to master the Power that broke the world and join the political elite of the continent, they would actually become less obnoxious? Why? After all, these are women who, as part of their training, were told they are not above scrubbing floors. You would tell them they are above it, and think this would make them more humble?

 

If and when the situation arose, I would rise or lower myself to it, the incentive would be there, hanging in the balance. Id do a lot of sh*t, if the price was high enough

The reward is becoming AS. What are you willing to do to get it?

 

if an Aes sedai could clearly tick off all parts of novice life and recite point for point, reasons I could agree with, why they were important towards my training for becoming Aes sedai, show me how each sister now puts that same lessons/labours to use in her travels, and how by doing it I’m readying myself for TGD, or other face-offs with the shadow, which I think is the most important part of being at the tower, then id hop to it.

If a pupil of mine demanded he be told why he was supposed to do something, I'd give him a clip round the ear. If someone under my command questioned orders, I'd do worse. They are supposed to follow orders. It's expected of them. Why should the AS explain their every decision to little girls?

Like I’ve said, it’s not hard work that I find off-putting, its time wasting.

And what could you do more productively with your time?

 

Guess I’ve had too much liberty compared to those girls. Their mentalities are just different to what I’m accustomed to.

Exactly. Most of us have had a much easier life than they are used to, but it is not hard to see why they would put up with it if you can put yourself in their shoes. The lack of days off is normal, the opportunity for social advancement, etc.

 

If scrubbing floors would improve my artistic ability, yes, I’d do it.

And it would, if to be taught at art college you needed to scrub floors. To be AS, you have to put up with a lot, but it's not a job they want to hand out to anyone.

 

See other posts.

You have said why you would like them, not why you would need them. They are luxuries.

 

As for me becoming pillowfriends...I am NOT gay, though. Not having access to guys would not make me start to find my friends sexually attractive, I think maybe the girls in the tower that do are bisexual, not Straight.

The Westlands have different sexual norms to the modern, western world. And not everyone in the WT has a pillow friend.

 

When I can study at a lower intensity with breaks, it helps me to remember the information long-term.

Well, their training is hardly intense. And you would have breaks. To scrub the floors...

And seeing as the tower is not a farm and has novices doing make-work. I assume some time off would not be impossible to schedule.

Possible, yes. Desirable?

[Elgee]

There are some perfectly valid reasons for why the novices are set to menial tasks.

 

One would be that they come from wildly differing backgrounds - you have the Daughter Heir from Andor, various nobles, rich merchant's daughters, down to beggars. Making them all work at the lowliest jobs brings the point home to them that they are ALL equal now, no matter where they came from. Very hard for a spoilt princess who's never had to lift a finger to look down her nose at a beggar's daughter when they're both scrubbing floors side by side  :P

 

You might notice that all the other organised Channelers do the same thing. The Aiel Wise One apprentices do the work that Gaishan could be doing; the Windfinder apprentices start off scrubbing decks along with everyone else. The Asha'man don't eat or wear clean clothes till they can do those things with the OP  :)

 

All these things are designed to get everyone on an equal footing, and to knock the pride out of some of the "precious princesses". This might seem harsh to some of us from modern times, but the military people for one would know that this is essential. You can't kill someone if you slip up with a paint brush, or a pen, but wielding a lethal weapon (whether it be a gun or the OP) is a different story. There you HAVE to instantly obey your instructors, not argue with them about "what's my motivation for doing this".

 

edit: get outa my head, you  :o *eyes Mr Ares warily*

[Mr Ares]

There you HAVE to instantly obey your instructors, not argue with them about "what's my motivation for doing this".

I found "I'll kill you if you don't" can be quite effective, especially if you make them believe your willing to follow through.

 

edit: get outa my head, you  :o *eyes Mr Ares warily*

You know you love having me in there.

[Elgee]

There you HAVE to instantly obey your instructors, not argue with them about "what's my motivation for doing this".

I found "I'll kill you if you don't" can be quite effective, especially if you make them believe your willing to follow through.

 

More effective than "you'll kill yourself", which happens to be the case, but when we're young we think we're invincible  :D

 

edit: get outa my head, you  :o *eyes Mr Ares warily*

You know you love having me in there.

 

Just don't go upsetting the other bondeds in there - half will start crying, and the other half will try to balefire you ... and crying really works on my nerves  ;)

[Braus]

There are some perfectly valid reasons for why the novices are set to menial tasks.

 

 

 

Honestly though, there doesnt need to be reason, only if you'd create the "tower" today. Life was different before, people today dont realize that only 100 years ago ALOT of things were ALOT different. If you go back 200 or even 300 you'll be around the beginning of the industrial revolution right? So you got those people who work for like 14 + hours a day in the cities, and the people who live on the country who is absoluetly dependent on how good their farming goes.

 

Telling them that you can actually become something, or even tell them a tale so they start dream about something. And they will come to the tower, at least those who is used to AS around themselves and their villages/cities. The others just end up as wisdoms/die or something.

 

In the WOT world and the Randland Age, what options does a farmgirl actually have? Hardly heard any schools mentioned in the books, and there seems to be no real religion either so stuff like "sundayschool" doesnt feel to exist either. That might be a flaw though, or the parents just teach their kids themselves. But still earning money in the WOT world seems pretty tough, unless you are crazy on dice or crazy at conquering countries, or say are apart of the most powerful organisation in the world.

[Durinax]

It would be easy to make money if you where a skilled tradesman, good barterer, smart farner, etc

[Tyrell]

...says the 21st century person with no experience of any of the above or living in a pre-industrial society.

[Spirit1025]

I know I'm not going to be very popular when I'm done, but...

 

I have no issue with the level of discipline in the Tower. I think kids today need more of it. I actually agree with Mr. Ares, 'Bring back the cane!' If I had children, I absolutely would punish them for misbehavior, even though today's society thinks doing anything to discipline your children is abusive. I've tried today's methods (when they even exist) and they don't work. Sitting them in a corner for two minutes or just letting them act wild is not an answer. Today's kids are for the most part spoiled rotten brats that I can't stand to be around.

 

As for chores. I believe in them. I have a friend who runs a small farm and her girls (ages 2-11) get up at 5 am to feed the animals, milk the goats, collect eggs, and help in the garden. They are also expected to help clean the house and cook meals. And they are some of the greatest kids I know because of it. So much character, so polite and helpful. Kids nowadays are lazy because they have everything done for them. At my house, if you want a glass of milk, it's in the goat. Go get it. Oh, and would you shovel out the pen while you're at it? If you want eggs, go chase the chickens out of the coop. If you want bread, the flour is in the cabinet. I scrub our floors on my hands and knees, and I would expect my children to help me with it if I had any. It teaches you to appreciate what you've got.

 

We only serve sweets for special occasions. Our kids would not eat junk food whenever they felt like it.

 

As for the pregnancy issue, I'm with the White Tower. I'm horrified at all the kids out there having babies. They're not old enough, mature enough, or responsible enough, and I see it as immoral to even be doing stuff like that out of marriage anyway. Within my culture, many groups of men and women will not interact with each other much. That means they don't even shake hands with each other in some circles! (Now, I don't personally go that far, but I do believe in being modest and chaste.) So I don't see it as a burden at all. If anything, it teaches virtue. Which we are sorely lacking in this world. I have a SEVEN year old cousin who came home one day from swimming lessons and I was babysitting her. I asked her how it went, and all she would say is that she needed to get a new bikini because her old one wasn't pretty enough and the teacher was cute (a 20-something year old man!) and pretty much that she was trying to get him to want to 'go out with her'. The next lesson, she was actually thrown out of the class because of her flirting. At seven years old. This is what our kids learn when they are sitting in front of the TV all day instead of doing something wholesome.

 

As for windowless rooms without locks. I don't think I ever had a bedroom with a window in my five years of college. And there certainly was no privacy, even with locked doors. We had communal showers and sinks, and the toilets were set up in little stalls like public bathrooms. Yeah, it's embarrassing at first, but it's not like some strange man would be walking in. (although it happened a few times to me when I lived in a co-ed dorm.) You get used to it.

 

A little bit of hardship is good for you. It really makes you a stronger person.

 

Were I in the wheel of time world, and able to channel, I'd have no hesitation about the way things are done in the Tower. Sure, it's not an easy life. Get over it. Yeah, some of the Aes Sedai abuse their power just because they can. But it's the same in real life. If you start on the bottom, you have to crawl your way to the top. And in real life, you're lucky if you get far, unless you have money to buy your way there. At least the Tower evens things out. The rich are treated the same as the poor. It doesn't matter how much land or money you have or what your last name is, you still have to work for what you want. (No, I am not a communist. Or a socialist. Just someone who thinks the current system is unfair.) 

 

 

[sketching sedai]

I think it’s gotten to the point were I’m just going to have to agree to disagree with some of you guys, not to be rude, but I just don’t think adding a few changes to the place would change Aes sedai for the worst and pave the way for utter ruination upon TGD.

And um...spirit, out of pure curiosity, what society do you live in? In some circles, men and women do not even shake hands? I don’t mean to be disrespectful about your culture or anything; I’m just curious.   

And you seem to have a really extreme view on teens today and stuff, as well. I don’t think us teens are *that* bad. We’re not all; spoilt, antisocial, pregnant, drug taking, punks, who spit in the face of all authority. The ones that do just create a lot of noise.   

But saying that, maybe a little weed might loosen those Aes sedai up a little...

 

   

 

 

[Mystica]

I've read through this entire thread and the thing that stands out to me the most is that you seem to be under the impression that these girls actually 'get' a say in this. They don't. Not untill they are either raised to Aes Sedai or put out of the Tower. And some of them balk at it just as badly as you would, but to no avail. The Tower has 3 millenia of experience of dealing with rebellious girls and young women. Trust me when I tell you, you wouldn't have much of a chance against that, no matter how tough you are.

 

I was a rebel first class myself and yet I went to a catholic school, run by nuns, and I stayed at school all week. In the lower years you slept in a dorm, let alone a room with a window and a lockable door. At a certain age you got a room of your own. Which was literally the same as the novices, a cubicle with a bed, a table, a chair and a small closet and a sink. Only one student got a window, that was the equivalent of the prefect or head boy/girl or whatever it's called in English. At no time did you get a lock on your door and anyone could burst into your room at any time. This wasn't an issue, as everyone was female. Most times this didn't happen however, as so long as you did what you had to do the nuns had no reason to come bursting into your room and to be honest, they had better things to do than go bursting in on little girls all day. Most of them didn't even bother with us at all and left that to the nun in charge of us (which would be the MoN in the Tower).

 

I also lived in a home, with between 20 to 150 other kids. No rooms with locked doors there either. Up to the age of 16 you sleep in a dorm room. Not a room of your own. From 16 to 18 you got a cubicle with a blanket for a door and an open ceiling. At 18 you got a room with an actual door and fully closed on top. At no point, ever, did you get a lock on your door. These places had both male and female caretakers and it still wasn't a problem. Etiquette required the male caretakers to knock on the door or on the doorframe of the girl's rooms before entering. Any transgression on their part was instantly witnessed by at least one or two others as you were never 'alone'. While a lot of transgressions happen around the world (not in the least with raping priests) I never experienced it either with me or one of the girls I lived with in all the 7 years I lived like that. When I moved to another place when I was 17 and got an actual room that had place for an actual desk I thought I had hit the jackpot. Still no lock on the door however.

 

The result of that is that I do value my privacy a lot. Not because it was so unbearable, but because constantly living with so many people was hard for me as I too needed my 'alone time'. But even in the midst of all of that you always find 'alone' time. And I'm sure the novices do too. The MoN isn't just there to hand out punishments, she's also the one that hands out hugs and consolation. Especially to novices. They ARE considered and treated as children, for as Elayne (a pampered Heir to the Throne) rightfully said: no matter your age, as a novice you ARE a child and in need of a child's protection and oversight. This lessens a lot once reaching the level of Accepted (equivalent to our teenagers), as you are expected to have grown from childhood into young adulthood.

 

To a novice an Accepted is only a small step below a Sister, yet to a Sister an Accepted is only a small step above novice

 

Saying that 'you'll cross that bridge when  you come to it' may work in this world, in a profession that doesn't have an immediate and direct influence on people's survival, but the Tower can not risk that when training women that need to be able to stand against the likes like Myrdraal and Dreadlords (the most powerful Aes Sedai in history). I'm getting the feeling that you severely underestimate the severity of the dangers these girls are expected to face once they reach Aes Sedai (IF they reach it, for only the best of the best actually make it. For most not out of choice, but because they fail their test). The Tower can't afford to let you cross that bridge when you come to it, for when you come to it that in most cases is a live or die situation. An Aes Sedai MUST keep her cool at ALL times. Rash or panicked decisions in a split second can literally break nations, start wars and destroy everything they have worked to build up for 3000 years. Putting that decision in the hands of some kid (and yes, as a novice and accepted you ARE a kid, no matter what age you have or how smart you think you are) is utter foolishness.

 

If you run away, chances are more than likely that you will be caught, but in the off chance that you don't get caught you'll probably be picked up by the Kin, who have an even tougher regime than the Tower for their members. If you manage to escape this too, you'll probably end up all alone or in constant hiding with an ability that is more addictive than any drug ever invented in this world and lacking the self controle and discipline the Tower would have taught you. This would lead to your discovery and either to your death or your recapture. Not just for your safety, but for everyone else's.

 

Keeping kids busy is a sure way of keeping them out of trouble.

[Braus]

I know I'm not going to be very popular when I'm done, but...

 

I have no issue with the level of discipline in the Tower. I think kids today need more of it. I actually agree with Mr. Ares, 'Bring back the cane!' If I had children, I absolutely would punish them for misbehavior, even though today's society thinks doing anything to discipline your children is abusive. I've tried today's methods (when they even exist) and they don't work. Sitting them in a corner for two minutes or just letting them act wild is not an answer. Today's kids are for the most part spoiled rotten brats that I can't stand to be around.

 

As for chores. I believe in them. I have a friend who runs a small farm and her girls (ages 2-11) get up at 5 am to feed the animals, milk the goats, collect eggs, and help in the garden. They are also expected to help clean the house and cook meals. And they are some of the greatest kids I know because of it. So much character, so polite and helpful. Kids nowadays are lazy because they have everything done for them. At my house, if you want a glass of milk, it's in the goat. Go get it. Oh, and would you shovel out the pen while you're at it? If you want eggs, go chase the chickens out of the coop. If you want bread, the flour is in the cabinet. I scrub our floors on my hands and knees, and I would expect my children to help me with it if I had any. It teaches you to appreciate what you've got.

 

We only serve sweets for special occasions. Our kids would not eat junk food whenever they felt like it.

 

As for the pregnancy issue, I'm with the White Tower. I'm horrified at all the kids out there having babies. They're not old enough, mature enough, or responsible enough, and I see it as immoral to even be doing stuff like that out of marriage anyway. Within my culture, many groups of men and women will not interact with each other much. That means they don't even shake hands with each other in some circles! (Now, I don't personally go that far, but I do believe in being modest and chaste.) So I don't see it as a burden at all. If anything, it teaches virtue. Which we are sorely lacking in this world. I have a SEVEN year old cousin who came home one day from swimming lessons and I was babysitting her. I asked her how it went, and all she would say is that she needed to get a new bikini because her old one wasn't pretty enough and the teacher was cute (a 20-something year old man!) and pretty much that she was trying to get him to want to 'go out with her'. The next lesson, she was actually thrown out of the class because of her flirting. At seven years old. This is what our kids learn when they are sitting in front of the TV all day instead of doing something wholesome.

 

As for windowless rooms without locks. I don't think I ever had a bedroom with a window in my five years of college. And there certainly was no privacy, even with locked doors. We had communal showers and sinks, and the toilets were set up in little stalls like public bathrooms. Yeah, it's embarrassing at first, but it's not like some strange man would be walking in. (although it happened a few times to me when I lived in a co-ed dorm.) You get used to it.

 

A little bit of hardship is good for you. It really makes you a stronger person.

 

Were I in the wheel of time world, and able to channel, I'd have no hesitation about the way things are done in the Tower. Sure, it's not an easy life. Get over it. Yeah, some of the Aes Sedai abuse their power just because they can. But it's the same in real life. If you start on the bottom, you have to crawl your way to the top. And in real life, you're lucky if you get far, unless you have money to buy your way there. At least the Tower evens things out. The rich are treated the same as the poor. It doesn't matter how much land or money you have or what your last name is, you still have to work for what you want. (No, I am not a communist. Or a socialist. Just someone who thinks the current system is unfair.) 

 

 

 

Tbh its all about the parents. You dont need to hit your kids to raise them into "decent people". I understand in away that you proberly mean that they will be raised right from the beginning so you dont have to hit anyone, but still, if its gone so far that you have to hit and threaten your kids, you already done something wrong that you got to try and change, not with punishment.

 

Anyway a very good would be raising a dog. If you buy a puppy and treat him right he will become a wonderful person. If you end up with a dog who barks or chase after people, or one who you have to say "sit" twenty times in a louder and louder voice, or who runs away, you have done something wrong. That doesnt mean that the dog will be any less a family member, but it just means you will have more problems to deal with.

 

What im pretty much trying to say is that there is always parents who isnt doing things right or enough.

If everyone would follow strict rules and use punishment such as spanking etc, there would always be does who never punish their kids because they dont have to. And then there will be those who does it all the time, and then does kids will in turn grow up and do the same to their children.

 

So imo regardless whatever method you do, there will always be people who does it wrong, and there will always be cruel/strict, or ignorant/spoiled kids >.<

[Mr Ares]

when we're young we think we're invincible  :D

When I was young, I was.

 

You dont need to hit your kids to raise them into "decent people".

Depends on the kid. Some need it, some it won't help no matter how much you try it.

[Hybrid]

It would be easy to make money if you where a skilled tradesman, good barterer, smart farner, etc

Wrong.  There are none of the comforts that exist today in a pre-industrial society.  It takes one misfortune - a bad storm, a bad fall resulting in a broken leg, a drought, a nearby war - and you could lose everything, no matter how skilled you were.  There was no such thing as insurance, no guarantee that you could bounce back from a loss like that.  Take a look at the current events in WOT.  Refugees in the tens of thousands, and I doubt they were all so lazy or unskilled that their misfortune was their own fault.

 

If I was in the novices' shoes, I would whine and complain quite a bit (just like they do) but ultimately I would take it.  Because the alternatives are far worse.

[drizzt_scimitar]

I think the reason that teens/college age kids today (like me) can barely imagine a system like the novice training and such is that today, people who are 18 years old (at least in the US) have a huge amount of freedom. From a university point of view, everything you do is your own responsibility. In a typical semester, most, if not all of my classes consist of very little except lecture. Most everything you need to get done is done on your own time, and as such students get used to having a lot of time to themselves. It isn't necessarily that you have a lot of FREE time, but you are simply able to make your own schedule almost completely as you see fit, outside of class time. If you want to do homework for awhile, then watch TV for awhile, that's fine. Or the other way around. And with the freedom and everything the internet brings with it, this only adds to the situation. Hell, If you want to skip class and do absolutely nothing for a week, that's fine too, as long as you can deal with the consequences. I know lot of students who don't really care much about GPA, they just want to pass and get their degree, and they take "free days" and such all the time.

 

In fact, I know a lot of students who have a tough time getting used to working in the "real" world after college, because they're so used to being able to do almost whatever they want, within limits, and then suddenly they have a 40+ hour per week job and they don't know how to handle the constant time at work.